I think I’ve decided on this product for my new house, on which I am the GC and all the subs. I’d love to hear real testimonials and complaints before I go ahead. Also, I live in very rural upstate, NY and can’t seem to find a contractor who does this. And ideas?
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I've used it many times including on my own home. It takes a loooong time to fully dry out. It feels dry on the surface after a day but at the sheathing it can be damp for weeks. Don't close up the walls until it is completely dry.
Many across the country sheetrock after 1 or 2 days. They are sealing up lots of watr in the wall that will take a long time to dry out. Other than that it is a fine product. Don't be fooled by how it feels on the surface. Take some out in the dark corners that don't see much airflow. Check the moisture content of the cellulose and the sheathing in these areas.
A big dehumidifier can help if you can seal up the house. Let it air dry for a week and then dehu for a week. 2x6 stud cavities take a lot longer to dry out. If you have a dewpoint calculating moisture meter, check the air indoors and out. When the dewpoint is lower inside than outside, switch to the dehu and close up the house.
most insulation installers won't don't do it here anymore for the exact reasons stated... people seal up alot of moisture... then have mold then ... start look'n for a lawyer....
i think with you on your own job... you'd be fine... i'd wait a good 30 days if i could... they spray alot of water...
let me know how it goes
p
I agree with the other posters. If you can't wait at least a month until you close up, don't do it.
We had one job which we closed up soon after it was insulated and when we cut holes in the exterior six months later, the insulation was still wet. Since we cannot usually wait long, we only use dry cellulose now and are very happy with this.
I would use the wet cellulose only if done by an experienced contractor.
You are about to make a big mistake. If you were sitting here , I would show you my growing photo album of wet blown cellulose disasters.
Check out this web site. I have done this for almost 20 years and it is bulletproof.
http://www.regalind.com/
Bill, maybe you're the insulation sub too. Forget the wet, dense pack it.
These machines come up on Ebay - you will have to paste this whole thing in, this one would do.
http://cgi.ebay.com/COCOON-INSULATION-BLOWER_W0QQitemZ330026667171QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20594QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Find a local cell manufacturer, or find the closest & ask where you can get their product. They sell by the trailer load, so you need a middle man or go to their manufacturing facility to get the best deal. Start here http://www.cellulose.org/ well maybe not, they don't list any members in NY state. That doesn't seem likely, the NY Times alone could insulate every house in the state.
Forget Home Depot, they charge almost twice what I pay local.
If you look through Mike Smiths Adverse thread in the photo section, you'll find the details of how to do an excellent job on your house.
The money you spend here will be returned many times over if this is your own house. Plus the comfort level in a no drafts house is worth the effort.
Joe H
bill...... i don't have the equip for a wet blow..
but one of my friends has
the old wet blow took a long time to dry... the newer set-ups use very little water, more like a slightly damp blow
if you can find an insulation sub who has the new equipment and a track record, i would go ahead and do it
if not, then i'd stick with dens -pakMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
On a recent addition project I removed lots of sheetrock and behind it was cellulose insulation.
It had been blown in wet and 5 years later it was still in great shape. Obviously dry and no signs of mold, no voids or settling.
Looks like a great product to me. This was my only experience with it.
What the problem is?
Bill, we used it on all walls, including interior. The house sounds solid and very quiet. We have electric baseboard heat and never had a bill over $119.00 for a winter month. We had temps 15 or more below that month.
House is good. Installer was great. Roofer not so good. Place wasn't drying out, roofer had nailed the cap shingles down tight, the ridge vent wasn't working. When I finally figured this out and had them pull the cap the big woosh was a great relief. The house took a while to dry out in the middle of winter but it sure works great now.
After watching Mr. Smith, I think maybe the two systems would be a lot alike.
I would do it again, but I always believe in more is better when thinking insulation. dan
The installers in my area must have the new "damp" instead of wet equipment. When you insulate with it instead of fiberglass the house feel soo much tighter and more comfortable even with a forced air heating system.
My installer claims to use a damp spray system. He claims to adjust the machine to use the least amount of water possible. It still takes weeks to fully dry out. "Damp spray" is marketting. Insulation by design reduces thermal and air movement. These are the two mechanisms that promote drying. The surface will dry quickly. The deeper layers will dry very slowly. If you use the product, remove some in several areas and check for moisture. Don't sheetrock just because the installer says that it's ok to do so.
BillD60
Please reconsider, others have given you good reasons to do so and I will give you a couple of more..
Sprayed Foam doesn't absorb moisture like celluliose does.. It adds strength to the building making the house much quietier. You can sheetrock the next day without issues.
Frankly I would reconsider using tradional stick building.. Instead use SIP's or ICF's. Far better insulational values, much more rigid and simpler to build. (cheaper too if you are going to do it yourself)...
I didn't note where you were building, maybe insulation isn't an issue with you.. in which case then whatever you do will be just fine..
Frenchy, I agree with you that foam is the ultimate way to go. However, it is very expensive compared to cellulose and may not be available at all in some areas.
I also like SIP construction. I think that is the ultimate house.
As for the "wet, moist, slightly damp" whatever blown in cellulose..I can't think of any advantage to the product. If you don't wait weeks at a minimum, you are taking a big chance that your walls will be too damp when you sheetrock them and anything can happen. It is also at least three times as expensive as dry dense packing it yourself, which can be completed in two days, and allows immediate sheetrocking.
I was at a site this week where they were tearing the sheetrock off of all the exterior walls in a new million$$ plus medical clinic because they were moldy and rotten on the inside from spraying in wet-blown and then apparently sheetrocking it too soon.
The usual crew I see operating these machines are college students hired for the summer.
Edited 9/9/2006 6:40 pm ET by BoJangles
I completely agree on the SIP point but this place is stick built and my (deteriorating) body can prove it. I would love sprayed foam but cost is prohibitive comparatively. I can let this sit and dry for as long as it takes so that is not a problem. My concern with dense pack is settling - I plan to die in this house and I hope it isn't soon! I'm still undecided and I appreciate all the suggestions.
If the proper cellulose (made for spray applications) is used and the installer is reputable the "wet" method is great. Good density, effective insulation and sound control. Dense pack is a good option too but to have it done correctly you will need a good machine, not one of the free if you by our insulation versions. Also keep DP flush with the studs or even a little concave so the drywall guys don't rip it out.Good luck, stay warm.Garett
bill..if your only concern about dens-pak is settling.. don't worry
the settled density of cellulose is less than 2 /lb/ cf
dens-pak ( by definition ) is more than 3 # / cf
so it's physically impossible for it to settle
if you use a regalwall blow and a machine that can vary the air flow
you will fall in love with dens-pak
myself.. i would be interested in the damp (wet ) blow if i had the equipment, but we don't .. so we trade labor for the cost of the equipment
like you.. i'm in no hurry to cover the insulation with drywall so i'm not worried about trapping moisture in the walls
also.. a proper wall assembly will allow some drying to the exterior as well as the interior.. depending on the RH of the exterior and the ability of the assembly to allow drying to the exterior ( we use 15# felt , but some housewraps wil also pass moisture to the exterior )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,Since you seem to be a proponent of properly installed damp blown cells, what are your thoughts regarding it's tendency to settle?Our insulator will do FG or damp cells- if we choose the cells they give us a stern warning to limit the vibration on the exterior walls (i.e. installing siding or other types of activity) until the GWB is installed. I wonder how likely it is to find a few inches of non-insulated space 5 years after the cells were installed?I would love to do dry dens-pack but there are no local subs who do that so we would have to DIY.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
don't know... our building inspector had wet blown installed.. i saw it before he put up the wallboard..
looked like cellulose bricks .... solid , from stud to stud & shoe to plate
the guy that installed it is an energy consultant... has all the equipment for testing
since then , he's got new equipment that uses only a small percentage of the original amount of water..
this thread has got me thinking , so i'll look Ned up and ask him about the issuesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If settling is, at least, a disputed concern among this group, and siding installation is a culrpit in settling, why wouldn't those considering DP install siding first? I have this option since I'm the man. Now I'm a bit concerned that the DP will push the fabric and my drywall sub (the only part of the job I'm not doing) will compromise the insulation.
I thought getting to this point of the job would indicate clearer sailing... I'm still not sure which way I'm going. Thanks for the continued sharing.
DP & regal wall is our basic system..
we got into blowing our own because my insulation sub wouldn't carry WC on his guys
we do Mooney wall if given the green light for an energy wall, and between the Mooney and the insul mesh & gluing , we find it to be labor intensive..
a good compromise , and very cost effective is to install the drywall and blow the studbays thru a high & low holein the drywall, then patch the holes
if you have a good road map of the hidden pockets, so you don't get any voids, then this system works great..
i really like the visual inspection you get with Regal wall ( insul mesh & glue )..
in my own house , i would use Mooney wall & dens-pak.....
but i'm still interested in the damp blow..
if i were about 40 and had 10 years in business, i would probably buy the damp blow equipment and blow all our jobs with damp blow
at this stage , we'lll trade labor for the investment in equipment...
IE: dens-pak vs. damp blow
see, with regal wall you have one or two days of prep work installing the insulmesh & gluing it and letting the glue set over night
you can trade those two days for less labor and more drying time
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
correct me If I am wrong. But it sounds like the dense pack requires some sort of mesh that is glued over the studs to hold it in? The only cellulose I have seen in my area is sprayed into the wall and a guy almost immediately after comes over with a circular brush that he runs over the studs like a screed to flush it up. Then they go around and suck up the left over and re spray it. I am guessing this is the damp spray the cellulose seems only damp on the wall if that. and the spill over on the floor seem dry.
You hit on the proverbial head. You are referring to the product & process I was looking for and maybe still looking for. I have checked out Regal and as long as the mesh holds its position it seems like a good option. As with any thing else it the unknown I fear. I do know that fiberglass does not do what I want it to do and in these times we all should be looking for a better way to insulate.
Bill, Trust me...I have blown at least 20,000 bags of dry cellulose into Regal walls. The stuff will not settle if blown in at the right density and the mesh will puff out somewhat in the process. All you have to do is take the palms of your hands and push it back in when you finish blowing the cavity. I always staple 1 mil super cheap plastic over the wall after it is blown in to keep the dust down when you are putting up the drywall.
This process is no trouble whatsoever to the drywaller. Installing sheetrock over fiberglass batts that are puffed out is much more troublesome.
I think they have some kind of a video available on how to do the whole process. Why don't you call them and see if they have a rep anywhere in your area??
It's on the top of my list for today. Thanks. BTW - Am I to understand that the fabric (mesh) used during the "blowing" is removed when done?
No, the mesh is stapled and glued to the wall before blowing in the cells. It is there to stay. You stretch it tight and staple it and then follow up with some type of glue or construction adhesive depending on which mesh product you have chosen.
The reason you glue it is so the cells can't get between the mesh and the surface of the 2x framing causing a bump under the drywall.
I still prefer the original 1/4" open mesh but there are other types available. We use a "machine gun" stapler and air guns to dispense adhesive, so it goes pretty fast.
You can be done with a whole house in two days no matter how you do it. It is a very do-it yourself friendly method.
It takes less than a minute to dense pack a typical 2x6x8' stud cavity with their Predator blowers. It takes longer to install the mesh than it does to blow the insulation.
The real key to this method is having a powerful blower that is able to dense pack it without adding tons of air and causing huge dust problems.
Great info' and I'm getting more comfortable, and ready to tackle this, by the minute. How do I know that I have a "powerful enough" machine?
Bill, get in touch with Regal & see if they have anyone in your area that you can contact.
While DP is labor intensive vs the wet blow, the result is worth it.
Your house will get quiet as you progress, the wind will stop blowing along the floor & you'll be warm too.
http://www.regalind.com/index.htm
Joe H
Hello -
I have looked for the mesh and can't find a supplier for the product - Do you have more information you could share?
bump
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Ask these guys, they might be able to help.http://www.regalind.com/regal_wall.htm
http://www.sfproducts.com/Netting.htm
http://www.jrproductsinc.com/netting.html
Joe H
I have looked for the mesh and can't find a supplier for the product - Do you have more information you could share?
As someone already posted, this is the manufacturer:
http://www.regalind.com/index.htm
Like you, I wasn't able to find it locally. So I bought mine direct. Just email them and ask for a price list. Then you can order the size of roll you want. I ordered an 8' tall roll. Came UPS. The price isn't any more expensive buying it directly...even after paying s/h.
I was pleasantly surprised at how relatively durable the stuff is. A couple staples will hold a 8'x12' piece up while you get it situated where you want it.
[edit to add] By the by, my local Lowes stores carry Regal cellulose and the Regal blowing machines. If yours are the same, they shouldn't have any problem with either the Regal or Mooney wall.
jt8
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly.
I said 'I don't know.'"
-- Mark Twain
Edited 9/8/2007 2:48 am by JohnT8
my local Lowes stores carry Regal cellulose and the Regal blowing machines.
Same here.http://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
And IIRC, Regal cell has borate or some other insect deterrent in it. Just wish my local lumberyard carried it. They are so much better to deal with on delivery items.jt8
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly.
I said 'I don't know.'"
-- Mark Twain
Bill, you can squash it down if it baloons out with a roller Regal sells.
DWallers will whine no matter what.
Joe H
Thanks. I didn't know such a roller existed. Dry wallers are an artistic lot... right next to chefs. Since this is my own house, I'll not expound!
bill... here's a thread about blowing cells in the same type of wall as a Regal wall..
in this case it'sa Mooney wall.. but the process and the materials are the same
go to this link:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Great stuff, again. Thanks. I guess if I can build an ICF foundation for this place, I can figure out insulatiing with DP. Just seems like developing a touch for filling is vital to a good job.
I do appreciate your patience on this.
You'll figure it out quickly, the pitch changes, the pipe won't move except back towards you.
One thing to keep in mind, DO NOT pull the pipe out of the wall while the blower is on. A bag of cells will pass before your eyes in about 3 seconds.
Clean up time is longer.
Joe H
They are both good methods, but I think the Mooney is a notch better.
jt8
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly.
I said 'I don't know.'"
-- Mark Twain
Bill, it won't settle if you get enough in.
The Regal wall system works, you need the fabric -wife sez it's light weight pellon?
Do a search here for Mooney Wall and you'll have more info than you need.
Ignore Frenchy, he's a broken record on cells.
If you find a machine with a Tornado, Hurrricane or Krendel blower it will do the job.
It's not rocket science, you can do it yourself if you have the time.
Joe H
BillD60,
I'm truly sorry that you weren't able to find a way to do SIP's (or ICF's) When I looked at those same choices I found that building with SIP's would be cheaper than stick building.. (once you looked at the big picture)..
My cost for material to stick build was higher than my cost for material to timberframe with hardwoods like white oak and black walnut.
Now to be fair, I went outside the usual channels for my materials, In that I went direct to a sawmill for timbers direct to the manufacturer for the SIP's etc.
The best I could do for typical 2x material was thru Home Depot which had just opened their first store here in Minnesota. At the time they wouldn't do take offs so I was forced to figure out the cost of materials myself.. At the time I could get 2x material about 20% cheaper at Home depot than a couple of lumberyards.
At the time my cost for timbers and SIP's was well under $25,000 for a 5500 sq ft. house
The same material cost at Home depot was over $65,000.
The moisture used in insulation is only a small portion of the moisture that needs to be removed from your new house..
Anyway, I'm glad you can let things dry. You see the 2x material you framed with is about 19% dry. It needs to get under 12% to prevent mold from forming and get below 7% to reach a point of stability.. Typically that's a full heating season plus!
I'm glad you aren't considering fiberglas. Of all the insulations I've seen that is far and away the least efficent.. Very easy but inefficent..
Bill, Sounds like a rather simple discussion has stirred up the crew! It's a good thing Fred L. is not here anymore or the smoke would be thick.
As for the dense pack settling..I have used Regal's insulation and machines on hundreds of homes. Their Predator II blowers are the best cellulose blowers I have ever seen. They will blow the walls off of your house if you want them to. You definitely don't have to worry about settling when using them.
Now you may not have access to any of their products, although they have a pretty extensive distribution system. The point is, that if you blow in at the rate that Mike describes, you will have a very dense, firm insulation pack that won't settle. I have gone back into many of the homes we insulated to do some sort of remodeling and have opened up the walls and found the cellulose to be in the same condition it was when we finished the job.
Waiting weeks for insulation to dry does not work for us. If it works for you, then cells are a good choice, but I really think you should look into the dry blown system that Regal offers.
where we are (PA, 1 hour north of Philadelphia) we don't have any insulation subs interested in dens-pak. there are a few that will do wet blow, but the moisture issues mentioned have them skittish.
we have one specialty outfit that only likes to blow fiberglass, mostly weird retrofit jobs. they are quite good at it, but again, they don't really like cellulose. maybe it's the dust factor, since a lot of their jobs are ones where they blow fiberglass into existing furnished homes.
let's say that we want to do a job or two ourselves, it doesn't seem to make sense to buy the equipment. where would we go to rent a Regal machine ? what do you pay for a rental ?
i saw the blower shown on eBay in the previous post and i'm leery that it's a cheap machine that won't give the necessary density.
carpenter in transition
I too looked at the wet blown cellulose... even bought 2 machines with the tornado blowers... you can check out
J & R products, inc. online @ http://www.jrproductsinc.com
they sell all the equipment... I'm pretty sure you could get just about any of the blowing equipment (home depot or lowes) and buy the wet nozzel and use it on their blower...
My idea was for my loft project for the common walls between units... strictly for sound... was to drywall one side and use the wet blown in from the other... like i said... i was looking at it 99% for sound... I'm right at the point where i need to make that choice.... so i'm interested in what you do and how it goes... My information about the mold comes from the guy who use to own quality insulation and sold out to masco... they were nation wide and had started using the system and then the mold mania hit... at the time he offered to give me the some wet stuff as they'd never use it again... (the one time i didn't accept something free)
p
Regal is a major supplier to building supply centers. The one we use has about 20 of their machines available. Regal owns the machines and maintains them. They pick them up periodically to refurbish or exchange them for new ones. I have some set aside that never get used by anyone else. They don't charge anything to use them. I'm sure I make up for it in the amount of cells we blow on an annual basis! This policy may vary from dealer to dealer??
They are now developing cellulose that doesn't produce dust when you blow it. Now that is going to be popular!!
same tired old song... and still out of tune
your panacea is yours only... sprayed foam costs so much more it's ridiculous
and frankly, you still don't know squat about cellulose..
and again with the jab against stick frame...
man , your shid sure gets oldMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Smith
Cost are an issue only to those who look solely at first cost and ignore tomorrow..
Yes it is slightly more expensive around here it commands about a 15% premium to foam I don't know about the rest of the country so I won't comment..
As for stick framing, It's simple and easy to do, has been done for a long time, and it has some other minor advantages. Since I don't sell either SIP'sor ICF's and have done all three I feel fully capable of expressing my opinion on them without bias..
You on the other hand have a vested interest in stick building.