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Blue, I guess i should have clarified the 5 coats of laquer are actually 3 coats of sanding sealer and 2 top coats of laquer. All 5 are sprayed and there is really no Build-Up to affect door margins as such. By the way when closed the margins should be dime at top and nickel at the sides, and even . Otherwise, the trim man was just a hack! KC
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Joe, Let me guess........ 70 doors..8' tall..Patrick Ewing???
*
I'm not going to doubt anything of what Joe says on this thread,This set of doors looks super(of course the picture could have been touched up a little with modern technology and all)(heh,heh,heh).Seriously,Joe,I'm sure you are a fine craftsman and it shows that you take pride in your work.Job well done.These doors must be fairly heavy,and at eight foot tall,it must have taken awhile to hang 70 of them!Well hung doors by a well hung guy.------Sincerely,maj's wife.(and you thought we were all over at Fine Cooking!)
*andrew,Get a job!!!!You have way to(o) much free time!!!!J
*If hanging doors....do you have a conversion chart for foreign currency???? Do Canadian's just use are more valuable US of A coins being there so handy...???Andrew....can you chart this for distribution at the Fall Fest?J
*Cool, Buddy!The vibes are flowing from CT to VA, otherwise how could you have known I was looking for bevel info to install a set of 36" wide, 24" thick doors.You da man!
*yeah,what about us down here. We got Buckleys of hanging doors right if we need a dime. Can anyone send one over??
*
Joseph FuscoView Image
*JackCanadians are indeed i handy,therefore we don't use anybody's coinage, we eyeball it. . . but as one of my cabinetmaking instructors used to say. . . "ya gotta have square eyeballs"Are you up fer it?i Better than plumbbut that's a story for another day!!
*Forgive us Father Joe..... we know not what we say. Some of us are indeed working on the " T " word houses as that is all that the clients can afford. Do I get away with 3 hail Seans?? :)
*Mark,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Joe, The only 8' door I ever put in was in my garage. We just live in different worlds!!
*G,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Joe, I hate to be the one that tells you, but 50+ doors is a lot. All I trim are custom or specs, and if there are more than thirty( that counts trap doors 2), I am calling in reinforcements. The 3* and 5* ( what's with this key board, no degree thingy?) bevels, I'm with you on that. The closer the better. But, sometimes we have gotten hinges with 1/4" splay. Mortising deeper and beveling was in order there. And the edge of the door has to be eased over, also(eliminates that 2 problem).I still think you were shaving bones. Ask something tough: like does crown blocking go in the floor or the ceiling. Better yet, what's a workable height for an interior door header. I'm pretty sure that only Egyptians know these answers. Working like an Egyptian with my sawzall, BB.
*BuckSnort,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Glad someone appreciates my 45 minutes of goofing off. It would have been a lot less without the pictures, but I was trying to communicate with Blue, see.... :)
*Joe, I'm tossing you my bones! You got me on the splay thing, I think!First, what the hell does splay mean?Second, if someone sets the margins different on my doors, they are going to fix them. If you give me a nickel on top, give me the nickel on the sides!Hey, shut up I'm the paying customer! I don't wan't different margins!If I'm setting them, I ain't checking the splay, for any change in my pocket, nor am I gonna do anything but throw them in tight to the frame and start slamming!If I gotta bevel them, I'm gonna bitch that they didn't build the head jamb wide enough! My fix? I'm gonna slam the jamb open with my 28" estwing! That way I don't have to bevel!I also trim with a 12# sledge handy. When the door doesn't want to seat right due to the warp, I just slam the frame and drywall over to fit the cockeyed door! Hey it works!Any ways Joe, if I had to hang those measly 50 doors, I'd hang them all in one day, using the same techniques that an old carpenter describes in a past FHB issue. If my memory is good, he hangs 70 per day. And that include routing the hinges!HOw many are you hanging per day?Heres the bones, you win!Wanna go triple or nothing?BluePs hope this post wasn't too long!
*Oh my god I'm laughting so hard I'm going to fall out of my chairBlue I saw some one do that sledge trick a few years ago and I just about fell out. Come think of it he was a framer too.(Don't need those 1/16 or1/8 marks on your tape)
*BleuYou really i area savage. FHb=Fine Homebashing. . . look for the next issue at a Homer Depot near you. Watch for hisi hands offseminar at the upcoming Breaktime/Canadian Beer Fest bring yer own sheep. . . rubber boots supplied!!!Still laughing
*You know what the funniest thing about it is... I've actually done it! It does work! And heaven help the poor soul who moves into a house that I've lived in! No shortcut is too small for me!Blue
*bill,It's no joke...Bring your tools to the fest and I'll just bring a chainsaw and a 3lb sledge...And run circles around you...Then pull up the curtain and let the beer drinkers try to figure out who did which!J
*Bill, honest injun, my ex partner always rounded his jack rafters to the nearest inch!And on layons, (those pesky reverse roofs that are layed over the sheathing) neithr of us ever used a square or a pattern for the rafter cuts! Occasionaly a cut might not fit right (within our low standards) and have to be re-cut, but usually they were right on! Blue
*Always doing it!Sledge hammer, duct tape, wire, vise grips, six in one screwdriver and a foamy for the beer....In the truck at all times....but I don't carry a spare tire!...just spare air and a credit card.J
*We must be soul mates Jack. The handle on my van dropped off, and I had a visegrip on there for 4 years: I finally threw the handle out, and wondered why dodge just doesn't put visegrips on all of them?!I think I'll start a new topic: JUnkiest trucks! I know I'll win, hands down!Blue
*Jack &Bleu color="#3333FF"> You guys otta get your own T.V. show, sort of an American version ot the color="#FF0000">Red Green Show. . . you could call it JACK & BLUE color="#3366FF"> just goofin' Patrick <!-- selection start --><!-- selection end --> After Posting, you will see your new message in context. Keep track of your messages by clicking Add to Your New Messages after posting, and though you cannot rewrite history, you will be able to Edit Message for 30 minutes after posting, and Delete Message anytime. BORDER=0 usemap="#bottomnav" height=11 width=300><map name="bottomnav"> href="/cgi-bin/WebX?126@@.ee71777"> coords="176,-8,224,19" href="/vid/"> coords="127,-9,175,16" href="/books/"> coords="57,0,127,11" href="/admin/magrack.htm"> SHAPE="DEFAULT" HREF="/fh/"><map name="fhbreaktime"> href="/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee6b303" > coords="-14,-13,407,29" href="/fh/" ><area shape="DEFAULT" NOHREF>
*Good Idea! We'd probably be black and Blue from all our back slppin' comedy!Blue
*
Joe-do the trig. For 2@2'0 doors it looks like you have scanned, the edges should be beveled 3.5*.
All single doors should be beveled 2*. Will need diet milk bones for Hector.
*
Oh OH Arcwood, I sense a flame war heating up! You must not know about challenging Fiery Joe!
Blue
*ArcWood, you make boats?
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Sure there's a simpler method - a table!
*andrew d,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Blue:Chrysler was only thinking of their pocketbook when they had door handles made for your truck instead of clamping on visegrips at the factory. If you leave the visegrips on the serrated shaft long enough, you will have to use visegrips because the handle will have nothing to turn. Down here in VA visegrips will not pass state vehicle inspection. They even require outside door handles now. And all doors must be operable from the inside. How picky can they get? :-)!Frank
*A buck? Hey big spender, do you get hinges that cost more than a quarter? Sometimes we have to smush them in a vise.Actually, I was asking a question about the crown blocking. The contractors and framers all tell me that it's there, but it must be that it vaporizes after the sheetrock is on, and flows to the floor. Some sort of framing magic, I'm guessing. But I'm betting blue doesn't know either.
*Well, simple unless you insist on one-size-fits-all. No math after the computer generates the #s (one of the best features of spreadsheets is that you need only write the formula once; its ability to use relational references allows you to fill columns of results with a click). No math. And no need to feel sorry; I sure don't need it!
*andrew d,
Joseph Fusco<img
*Of course they are Joe. If the mortises of the hinges are equal to the thickness of the hinge, this goes without saying on the pin side. But, do you taper the door? If you taper the door, do you set the moritse perpendicular to the face of the door, or parallel to the side of the door to maintain the prallelism of the hinge? If you don't taper the side of the door opposite the hinge, how wide doe the gap have to be for a given door with before the doors bind? Joe, there is no way that the gap between the door and the jam can be otherwise if the hinge is mortised to the thickness of the hinge. I had thought that the rule of thumb on the taper was 1/32" on a 1 3/8 door. An additional 3/8 is roughly one part in four, so I suppose you could add an additonal 1/128 " inch for your 1 3/4" doors. Now, the problem comes, what is the relative humidity and temperture when you set these doors, and what is the linear expansion per degree of temperature change as correted for humidity of these doors? Too, you woul have to consider the differences in the wood types. Certainly, one would not epect the coefficients of expansion for different wood types to be the same except by chance. Gee, this is more difficult that I expected. More later.Dennis
*Haven't done the math, but I doubt it makes much difference as the 3 degrees is a constant change over thickness. You can do the trig, but I doubt that there would be much of a difference between 1 inch and 3 inches and a normal door as the 3 degrees is such a small part of 90. I admire the craftsmanship, but for me, this is nuts. The humidity and temperature chages will make a hash of all of this, unless the home is at one temperature and one constant relative humidity all the time. Then, the question is, at what conditons was the wood dried? DennisP.S. Good grief, this is the pits. I just found myself looking my library to find the specific gravity of mahogany to calculate the weight of those doors. As I am fond of saying, I would rather have my last name be Ford than Royce.
*Oh yeah, since I'm the customer...NO BEVELS ON MY DOORS! I hate seeing anything other than 90 degrees on the edges of my doors!Pay attention! NO BEVELS!Blue
*All of Blues doors come with a handy six pond sledge, hanging from the knob, combo door knocker/closer.
*Finally, an idea that has merit!I'm thinking of adding you to the boogerin' club!Blue
*I have a feeling that if you framed it, it would be close enough to plumb and the walls straight enough that all this sledging would be needless. Dennis
*72 1/2".Crown blocking goes into peechzz's firepit.I win the bones!Blue
*The key word was close enough!Blue
*Nah, easier to just memorize it. :)I was interested to find out what the minimums were and how they related to door width & thickness. I just did an exterior door at 7° and of course it was too much (but I know the door won't stick, as it had before planing). 4-5° sounds just fine. Besides, I only do 32 and 36" doors here, no rocket science.
*Blue,I better have a b life membership in the Boogerin club!!!J
*You are officially nominated to the BOOGERIN' HALL OF FAME!GASP!Applause!SPEECH???!!!Blue
*Not so fast. It's 72 ,and everybody knows crown blocking only goes in castles.
*It's 72 1/2"! Bifolds are 72".Blue
*No way! I cut all my doors in half.
*
Blue,
Joseph Fusco
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*AdirondackJack, I'm interested in getting tickets to watch this thread, heard you were selling them to fund the fallfest. Make mine back just behind the "heat seats".Waiting for the fun to begin.
*I typically use 3/32 on both sides, top, and center for the bi hungs. Floor finish determines the bottom. There may be other things to consider but that's where I start.
*So THAT'S what MDF doors look like...
*I could write a book, on the subject, and every paragraph would be subjective. But, for all the milkbones, heres what I'd do.I'd follow the link to that set of doors, and measure that fine set of doors (providing they open and close after finishing! Those margins appear to be correct, and I'd use them as my model!By the way, who set them?Blue<
*Nickel at the sides, Dime at the top, (It will only get one coat of stain over it's lifetime). 1 " undercut for ventilation"
*It's not the stain, it's the finish treatment that is the most important. See the thread on "Painting these monsters", and note the 5 coats of laquer on the trim.And what if the clients go with a double padded shag carpet?What if the clients have alternate means of ventilation, and prefer to have the door lightly brushing the tops of the carpet.?There are too many correct answers to this query!Blue<
*Do you use those measurements for all installations, or do you vary the margin between the doors based on swing radius and door thickness?Also, it would depend on what is on the other side of those door. If a closet, the center edge(s) could be beveled for a smaller gap between the two doors.
*Picky picky...Your right...poor use of the language. I'm rushing too much. Shag carpetting was a good point too. That part should have been worded (1 " undercut above finished flooring". I say 1 " assuming first that it's a closet, and second even if not assuming forced air heating. However I am "Ass(out of)U(and)Me",ing a lot"
*Right on Mongo! See Joe, the book is already starting!Blue<
*Joe, heres my anwer, all my milkbones are on the table.You've actually given me two questions, so I have to give you two answers.The determining factor for setting door margins is:A HEALTHY DOSE OF FORM, DICTATED BY FUNCTION!The best way for setting margins is to do it with a trained eye, like mine!Pay up again!Blue<
*What? You don't measure the moisture content of the door and framing first? Then factor in climatological data, manometer tests, etc.? There's any easier way?My LIMITED (AJ, note non-nauseating use of color) experience is that the bevels are the most important detail 2° (hinge) and 7° (latch), plus the dime and nickel stuff. Now, if we could just pluck out Blue's eyes.Shag carpeting isn't still around is it?
*Ah, but what if you have an offset hinge? Shag carpet forever!@degrees might work fine on a little ole' 1 3/8 door! What if the door is 3" thick?Puttin' my goggles on now,Blue
*Blue,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*The hinges will only bind if the jambs are not square...If you are using poplar for jambs...You surely did right by bevelling the hinge side. A couple degrees sounds like a good idea anyway. Typically I do these calculations on the first pair of doors working up to operating properly with my trusty dime checking not only with doors closed but clearance as well. The first door will not have a bevel, except on the hinge side as mentioned. Once I have the right bevel I set the trusty Porter Cable and don't touch it. Good points mr Joe. Next time give us the door dimensions will ya.
*Well, Blue, since you asked, I don't have much time but here's a more precise method for figuring bevels (probably with errors). There are some approximations, and factors such as the differential swelling of the stile at the narrow end of the bevel are discounted:View ImageNow, I do realize arctangents are hard to do in one's head in the field, so here's a quick spreadsheet table covering residential doors to your typical Y2K bunker door:View ImageDouble doors are the same as two single doors, except you can leave the first square if it must always be closed first. Thanks, I finally got around to fiddling with the Apple spreadsheet. Works a lot like Excel...(Of course, it is better and safer to do this stuff by eye.)
*Wow Andrew, what's the formula if the painter forgets to seal the bottom and top of the door.
*Painter = 666And just say no to shag!
*So Joe, when you say you hung these 70 doors, what exactly do you mean? Did you make up the frames, mortise the jamb, and door, stick 'em the holes and stop and case them? Or were the doors already in frames? Big difference in those kind of margins.Sometimes we have to mortise the hinges a little deeper, and, bevel the hinge side of the door when the parallel gap is a little too fat. 3/32 looks good until a couple of repaintings ( that poplar is going to get painted, isn't it) and things start to scrape. Houses do move. 7 degree bevel on the lock side is a good cover your butt number, but in a house with 70 doors, I'm figuring those owners are paying enough to have things a little closer. Same with the double doors, one side beveled and one not. Nothing better than a door with an explanation.Joe I think you were shaving milkbones here, you can be expecting an investigation during the Canadian Beer Fest.
*Blue, I guess i should have clarified the 5 coats of laquer are actually 3 coats of sanding sealer and 2 top coats of laquer. All 5 are sprayed and there is really no Build-Up to affect door margins as such. By the way when closed the margins should be dime at top and nickel at the sides, and even . Otherwise, the trim man was just a hack! KC
bump
You trying to dredge up a milkbones war?fka (formerly known as) blue