friends
I am building my first house (consequently for my in-laws, so I don’t want to mess it up). I am a finish carpenter by trade, and proficient in framing, but still not 100% confident reading blueprints accurately enough to sleep well at night. I have never been the lead carpenter, and this is my shot, hence the pressure. Are there any rescources that you would recommend for me to get to make sure I don’t mess this up?
with much apprecaition
Replies
Every mark on those blueprints has meaning, and is there for a reason. Research and ask, until you know what every single mark, word, symbol, schedule, etc. means! Ask here (breaktime), ask co-workers, ask subcontractors, google-search, etc. Ain't education fun?
edited to add: Oh yeah, and not to overlook the obvious - don't be shy to call the architect and ask him directly. Most are happy to discuss what they drew, since they want the house built as they drew it.
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 10/28/2006 9:56 pm by Huck
easy... sit down with a red pencil and a set of plans. circle, underline, or check everything that raises a question in your mind. have nice meeting with the architect (buy him/her lunch or something). explain you are skilled and confident with the tools and materials but the plans is a new step for you. can you please clarify these things I've marked so I can be sure to achieve the results intended by the plans. Also ask if there are any code givens that you should be made aware of (fire blocking, cross bracing, tempered glass, wall heights that help roof lines line up, head clearances, frame with mechanicals and plumbing in mind, collar ties, etc) the list goes on. I've learned many things through making mistakes. mistakes are painfull financially and can aggirvate you but you'll never make the same mistake twice. many of us have made lots of mistakes, feel free to ask here as often as needed. caring is more important than being perfect.
good luck,
Jay
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
"...mistakes are painfull financially and can aggirvate you but you'll never make the same mistake twice. "
Want to bet?
There was a thread here a few months ago about making mistakes a second or third time. You need to be really talented for that though. [G]
Don k.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
actually - can't say I learn averything after the first mistake. I just should have."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
Get yourself a set of highlighters in a rainbow of colors. Go over those plans with a fine toothed comb, and every time you notice something, categorize it and highlight it- one color for all the blocking you'll have to do, another color for steel straps, plumbing stuff, etc.
Wherever you have to scale for a measurement, double check it and write it down, and confirm it with another page if possible.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Don't hesitate to contact the architect. As an architect, getting those phone calls tells me that the general contractor is thourough and paying attention to things that may have been overlooked during the drawing phases. Technically, you should NOT scale a drawing for a measurement...go only by the dimension strings.
I'm glad that you say that one shouldn't have to scale off of drawings to find measurements. I'm not used to doing it, I'm used to looking at given measures to find what I need.
However, I'm working on a job where I'm expected to scale off a lot of the measurements, so I know it happens.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I have a Q for only the pros here: several of the posts refer to the architect who drew the plans. In your area, what % of single family home plans, new construction, are drawn by archtiects and what % by a "designer"? If you really don't know, please don't answer, or better still, go to work tomorrow and find out about the curent project you are on.
I guess the same Q can apply to remodeling, but please state "remodeling" if that is the case.
Matt,Every house I work on is drawn by an Architect. Every additrion I work on is drawn by an Architect or a Homeowner who had someone draw the plans up and the plans were approved by the town. That's legal here in NJ for single family homes.I've never seen a set of plans drawn by a designer before.Joe Carola
Interesting.
Are the plans stamped by the archi?
Here, the designer drawn plans are stamped by a PE.
>> Every house I work on is drawn by an Architect. Every additrion I work on is drawn by an Architect or a Homeowner who had someone draw the plans up and the plans were approved by the town. <<
I wonder who that "someone" would be?
they aren't stamped yet, and are being engineered right now (should have em by next week). I called our designer, but she isn't keen on returning my calls.
>> Every house I work on is drawn by an Architect. Every addition I work on is drawn by an Architect or a Homeowner who had someone draw the plans up and the plans were approved by the town. <<>> I wonder who that "someone" would be? <<
It could be the homeowner or a friend/cousin/neighbor/son or daughter going to drafting school, or someone else who knows something about construction. A lot of times the Contractor draws them and the HO presents it to the town with their own name on it. Even the town knows that they don't draw them but it still passes.As long as everything is draw to code, it will pass.Obliviously a HO can't draw the plans because they have no idea what they're doing, so the get someone to do it.A homeowner doesn't need a stamped plan from an Architect, Engineer or anyone. They can draw the plans themselves and it's up to the town to pass them.If the town doesn't like something they mark it and tell you what to put there.It's crazy but it's true! I've worked from some plans that were approved and didn't make sense because the town made a mistake and I question it and change it myself or I'll call an Architect that I know and ask what I could put in its place. As long as what I change isn't down sizing a beam that the town approved.
Joe Carola
From what I've seen in custom residential construction, 80% of plans are stamped by an architect and the remaining 20% drawn by either a "designer" or GC. In remodeling the percentage is probably 50/50.
Having said that, many plans with an architects stamp on them are actually put together by an office draftsman and simply checked by the arch.
The smaller archs that do their own drafting usually have better quality detail.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I agree with Zak, use the highlighters. Make sure you refer each color to the legends, such as footer size, pads, etc. Follow though to bearing walls and such. If you start with this system now, your subs can follow it as well. I use this system on every job. Has helped over come the language barrier as well.
A little off topic but more importantly there will be more details left off the prints than those that are on the print set.
Going through to the project and doing takeoffs for every single phase of the construction will force you to see many things that you otherwise will not until you are knee deep. This includes drawing up detailed specs for every sub that will be hired, and even specs for the work you will do yourself. I do about a page typed document per sub - to get the basics. Start with a detailed budget template and, once you have every line filled in, you have made your first pass. For a first timer, one house, depending on the house, I'd say plan on spending at least 80 or 120 hours on this planning phase. I know, it's not the fun stuff - but it's the essential stuff, just like nailing studs in the wall is.
Speak to an instructor in blueprint reading at a local college or trade school.
Go to local community college and purchase books on blue print reading, barnes and noble is also a supplier to many college books stores look on the web.
As Matt said, there will be a lot of details left off the plans. Is there a way that you can get a framer to help you with this? There are a lot of things that you can make a mistake on and you will. The key thing is that you don't make any serious mistakes that are very costly.
You can’t learn how to frame your first house right on your first house. You need someone there who knows how to frame houses for guidance just like any other framer went through and me before I could frame a whole house by myself. I walked hand and hand with my boss to learn this and it didn't take just one house.
You need to know exactly what your doing from day one from squaring up there foundation, laying out all your doubles for parallel walls above, all your plumbing layouts so no joists are in the center of any waste lines or drains and moving joists off center marks., laying out for stairwells and the length of the stairs for the double joist for openings,
Making sure any girder for stairwells that start at the girders land in the right spot. Laying out your doubles and the exact sizes for fire places. Make sure that you lay out any stairwells that are up against a foundation wall that’s 12” below grade and 8” above grade if you have that situation.
The first floor wall, if they’re 8’ then you won’t have to many variations in header height unless they call for any transoms or circle tops above the windows. Then you have to put flush headers in and hang your joists. If you have 9’ and 10’ ceilings and windows with circle tops or transoms, you have to be careful how you line those up at the top or line them up with the top of windows that don’t have a circle top or transom above.
You have to lay out for all your parallel walls above on the second floor and also your toilets and tubs drains and waste lines and move any joists off it’s 16” center mark to get out of the way. You have to lay out for any structural beams if need to support a load above and post underneath them.
These are some things you have to be aware of and I didn’t even get to the raters yet, so this will be hard for your first house. Framing a house isn’t rocket science but it’s not something you learn over night or on your first one. You should definitely have an experienced framer working along side you.
Get a tube for carrying the plans around and take them home at night. You'll quickly know them inside and out, or at least should. The more you work through things in your head the better since the deeper you can go with the plans the more you'll be able to work things out before it's a problem.
Keep in mind that as a finish carp you have a big advantage since many of the issues we usually have to work around can be fixed at the framing stage.
Also keep in mind that architects can't be expected to produce plans that are 100% correct. A certain amount of interpretation and alteration is expected. Bulders vary in the amount of change they'll do before letting the architect know what they're doing, but most are easy going when it comes to things that make sense if you keep them in the loop.
I'll typically touch bases with the architect for anything structural with a quick phone call and smaller asthetic issues generally collect until something comes up that needs a face-to-face meeting and I'll run a number of those by him all at once.
Don't worry too much if you are good at visualizing. The more time spent looking at the plans the faster you'll get up to speed.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Your comments helped out a lot. I kept thinking I was doing something wrong when I was double-checking our designer/architects measurements. I keep finding little mistakes, such as on the foundation plan she has the outside perimeter measurements 1/4" different from side to side that should be square. It's good to know that the world isn't going to end, and that it is acceptable to make some changes in the field, and use some common sense. Thanks again for your confidence building.
Be aware that all plans are not perfect. Not what you want to hear is it?
I helped build an Idaho cabin last fall with my uncle using plans out of a California Architect. The outside elevations didn't match the inside, (the outside were correct), the bedroom windows were not sized for egress, the inside wall measurements were wrong, each outside wall measurement was an odd number...most things were not found until we were started framing, luckily the foundation plan was correct.
I seriously doubt most are this bad, but doing as already suggested about going over the plans meticously before you start is a very good idea. This was not a case of using the lowest bid either, the cabin was for a very wealthy man. Cost was not an issue. On my own house, i spent lots of hours going over and over ny plans before we broke ground, time well spent.
Get a new drafting book- it will have a listing of line weights (apparently called graphic highlighting now, for some reason), symbols, dimensioning standards, and the representations for different materials. Think about everyone you know and ask questions about who does drafting, how they do it and where they learned about it. If you want to be a lead, you'll have to know more about it anyway. Think about taking a course at a local tech school or community college, too. It will make you more valuable to anyone who's a prospective employer or client in the future, too.
Everyone involved~
I am blown away by your helpfullness already. I read the forum rules that said "new guys don't be afraid to ask questions", and I took it on faith to see what would happen. You all have been so helpful and encouraging, which means the world to me right now.
here is a little more background on the situation I am involved in. My in-laws live in FL, and recently bought some land, and found a company that will act as a liazon to the bank to help owner-builders get loans, and coach you through the process of building a house, the idea being that you can save the money you would normally pay the GC to do all the scheduling, estimating, and all the other things a GC does. They asked if I would like a shot at building it, and essentially running the project. Maybe jumping the gun, I said yes, and we moved from CA down to FL for a year to give this a try.
I know I am young, and not a master carpenter yet (mid-journeyman level probably), but you never achieve great things if you never try. With that said, I ask the question to all, what is the most important thing you wish you would have known then that you know now? Thanks again guys. I really appreciate this...Who knows, it could save my marrige :)
Everyone has brought up very valid points that you should look out for, but don't let the apparent complexity of the plans overwhelm you. Its just a house, wood framing is very forgiving, mistakes can be corrected.
I am constantly amazed by how little information some working drawings contain, but relatively unskilled guys put them up with not too much trouble. Have fun, don't lose too much sleep.
...Oh yeah, and this is coming from an architect.
thanks for that. Let's hope my father-in-law has the same optimistic attitude when we get into it a little farther. If not, its going to make those family gatherings like christmas and thanksgiving slightly awakward. :)
stephen
I haven't seen a set of prints from an architect in ages. Most are from a designer and stamped by an engineer. Have one client who is a designer and has an architect stamp them.
You said the house is in Florida, is it a frame structure or masonry? That brings up a whole new set of questions. I do them all the time down here and have seen some of the worst plans imaginable, while still adhering to some of the stringent codes.
If it's Masonry, I can give you a crash course.
It depends in what part of FL you are building. In the Keys the houses are built on piers and good builders use all PT lumber. All connections between floor, wall, and roof systems must be strapped.Florida reworked it's code after Andrew. Check with the permit office before you build. They might have a code book for sale and if not, find out what book they use and buy it. I live in GA. We use IRC CABO 1&2. The code book is about $60.00 and a CD is included. Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
>> Its just a house, wood framing is very forgiving, mistakes can be corrected. <<Really, how many houses have you framed and made a huge mistake on that can cost thousands of dollars to fix? Yes they can be corrected, but they can be very costly if you make a bad one. So why make a bad mistake, just do it right from the start.>> I am constantly amazed by how little information some working drawings contain, but relatively unskilled guys put them up with not too much trouble. <<Can you explain that? It sounds to me that you were saying that unskilled guys frame them. Is that what you meant?Would you put a 18 year old kid fresh out of high school on a drafting table or computer program and tell him to design and draw a house and then walk away from him without any supervision?What makes you think that someone who's never framed a house before can just get up there and frame one without any supervision? Do you think that framing a house is for unskilled people and anyone can just learn how to frame a house in one day or just one house?
Joe Carola
No need to be so confrontational man.
You must be highly priveledged (or maybe the other way around) and working only on million dollar projects. Either that or you don't know what an architect is, or possibly don't do that much work. It must be one of the above for you to claim that every thing you've ever worked on was designed by an architect. It's not the same for all geographic areas, but the several areas I have worked in lean heavy on the "designer side. In fact I asked one of the head plan reviewers down at building safety to estimate the percentage of projects designed by designers as opposed to architects. His answer was 90% designers. I've contracted every type of project from decks to a 975,000 custom home and only seen a smattering of prints from full blown architects.
Now if you want to know what I really think... We would all be alot better off if we had about ten times the amount of architects that we have currently.
I'll sum it up with an excerpt from my company's mission statement
"It all starts with a good design. Unfortunately that is something rarely seen today. Poorly trained, creatively challenged "designers" are used far too often in residential building. Imagine entrusting your family to the care of a doctor who's education consisted of a few hours study of Gray's Anatomy. Sound absurd? Then why do we continually depend on so-called designers to make the vital decisions regarding the home or homes we will spend our entire lives living in. Properly trainded, creatively gifted Architects have the necessary tools to take our dreams and turn them into a workable reality."
>> No need to be so confrontational man. <<>> You must be highly priveledged (or maybe the other way around) and working only on million dollar projects. Either that or you don't know what an architect is, or possibly don't do that much work. It must be one of the above for you to claim that every thing you've ever worked on was designed by an architect. <<That's a good way to start a post to me and tell me not to be confrontational.If you have anything intelligent to say other than your designers or your company’s useless mission statements, then maybe I might respond back to you about something important. Or don’t address me at all with your confrontational remarks.
Joe Carola
You've missed the point that Joe (like me) is from New Jersey, where "residential designers" aren't allowed- all plans need to be sealed by an architect, or signed by the homeowner with an affidavit stating that they were personally drawn by the homeowner, and the homeowner bears all responsibility for the design.
And if you tell me that NJ is a nirvana because it ensures that all plans are drawn by "Properly trainded, creatively gifted Architects who have the necessary tools to take our dreams and turn them into a workable reality." (BTW- you seem to have a typo in "trained"- I hope that wasn't cut-and-pasted directly from your website), please stand by while I throw up. I've estimated, done constructability reviews on, and built from drawings by dozens of different architects (some of them world-reknowned, like David Childs and Frank Gehry), and I can tell you that I can could on one hand the number I would consider to be "properly trained and creatively gifted", with one of them being one of the two fine gentlemen named above (and it's not the one who doesn't own a straightedge.....).
Bob
I guess things are a little different where you build. Here in British Columbia, especially during a housing boom such as we are experiencing now, everyone and their dog is acting as a general contractor. And the great majority of blueprints that are submitted for approval are not by architects ( Architects are involved in roughly 4% of residential projects ) or designers, but come from plan books, are photocopied from neighbours, or sketched by homeowners. The system relies much more heavily on the inspection process to catch mistakes.
The point I was trying to make was not that someone should not do adequate preparation, or to discount how much skill goes into successfully completing a house. It is that despite the shortcomings in both planning and builders, houses get built without major problems. The majority of serious shortcomings I see develop occur due to building envelop, not structural defects. Much as it would bolster our sense of self-importance, house building is not rocket science. Wood frame construction is a very forgiving form of building - that is its whole beauty - and if the guy, who seems conscientious, wants to general contract a house comes here for advice, there is no reason to scare him off. Everyone has a first. There is no avoiding it.
There are a lot of Homeowners acting as GC's around here also. Some think that it's no big deal and will just call in all the subs and everything will run smoothly while they're at work. Meanwhile there are decisions to be made on the spot and problems can occur that needs to be addressed from the HO and they're not there. If a real GC was there, they could solve the problem because that's what they do for a living every day. Some HO's think that all their subs will handle things and that's just not the way it goes. If a HO wants to act as a GC, then they have to put time into the project and take off from work when it's necessary.I wasn't trying to scare the OP away but just trying to give him some advice on what he has to look for when framing a house because like him and a HO that wants to GC a project, you can't just step into a new trade without any guidance and I wouldn't want to see him make a major and costly mistake.
Joe Carola
>> Wood frame construction is a very forgiving form of building <<
Right, but allow me to fabricate a scenario, actually very loosely based on a thread I saw here at BT:
HO/GC wants a big picture window in the kitchen. So the framer frames it up, per plan, house is roughed in, sheetrock goes up, first paint, brick veneer goes on outside, cabinets & granite countertops go in.
Well, turns out the electrician had had his helpers rough in the house and at electrical trim out, the electrician raises a big red flag because not only is there not an outlet along the kitchen counter every x feet, but the big picture window is so close to the backsplash that there is no space to install outlets unless the HO wants to loose the backsplash. So, the framer is called back to raise the big picture window and promptly rips into the sheetrock and brick veneerer. Somewhere along the way a pipe is in the way, so the plumber is called back.
Electrician's helper is questioned about the outlets at rough and says that he noticed the lack of outlet space but just figured they were going in the front of the (full overlay frameless) cabinets. Of course the HO/GC didn't know about the kitchen outlet requirement - he is not that experienced, and the BI (who never has any responsibility) missed it.
So, in the end, thousands of $s and a month of time are wasted and 1/2 a dozen subs have to come back. Wood framing is forgiving though so it was no problem to move the window....
That might be a little far fetched, although I'm sure things like that have happened. A more common example might be screw ups in the foundation that were "just taken care of in the wall framing" cause the preordered roof trusses not to fit. No truss company I deal with takes returns - even if you have your sales receipt :-)
So, no, it's not rocket science, but if a project is not properly managed large amounts of time and money can be thrown out like yesterday's news.
Matt - the scenarios you describe are everyday occurences.
Wood-frame construction is a very forgiving process - as long as money, time, and efficiency are not an issue. I'm sure we could start a whole thread on costly construction delays and goof-ups caused by a lack of competent oversight. (Might be an interesting thread...hmm, maybe I'll go start one!) Every step of the process is fraught with potential and unexpected problems, delays, oversights, errors, and liabilities.
Sure, someone with no experience could muddle their way through it, and if they kept at it persistently, eventually become competent. Not unlike the rocket scientist (NASA engineer) Homer Hickam, as described in his excellent memoir, Rocket Boys (the movie was entitled October Sky). Its the story of how a teenage kid in a coal mining town became a rocket scientist by playing around with model rockets as a way to get the girls to notice him, with a lot of support from his friends and community. "...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Sounds like you are new to FLA. OK - here is your assignment starting tomorrow AM: :-)
Learn how they build in FLA. Whatever you learned in CA is great and useful but just background at this point. On this job, the first time you mention cutting Douglas fir 2x4s with a skil77 they are gonna look at you like you are from mars, and treat you that way until the end of the job :-)
Although presenting it in a joking way, I'm being serious here.
good talk.
I thought that being a framer out there would transfer here, but definately not. You were right on about the thinking I was from a different planet part (not to mention probably being one of those fruity-crazy-eyed-liberals). The first floor is all block, which is something new, as we were in a seismic zone before, and the 2nd story is conventional wood framed. We are using trusses, so I don't need to cut the roof, but It is still a multi-pitch. It feels like I am starting all over again.
stephen
So - you are going to manage the project start to finish, and do some of the carpentry? I trust you are being compensated. Working for family/friends... a whole other topic. Do a an advanced search. (hint: use the search button at the bottom of the screen). Browse around in the business folder. Maybe even start another thread.
but still not 100% confident reading blueprints accurately enough to sleep well at night.
That's actually a good thing the day you go "no biggie, just another set of prints" is the day you will miss somethin & it will bite ya everytime.
When asked why is there four engines on a 747------ "cause we couldn't fit six" a Boeing engineer
One thing I can tell you, laying awake at night is where my best ideas come from. It's quiet and there isn't a group of guys asking me how to do stuff. At first I didn't like it, now I look forward to it.
I came up with my way of mounting stringers this way, techniques for cutting jobsite arches, building hips on the ground (with pics from Blue). As well as many other things you run into as a framer.
After reading this thread I thought I would toss in my 2 pennies.
I was taught to never dimension off of the blueprints. Too many things can go wrong if you put a scale on the plans and come up with 14' 6", and it should be 14' 8".
If there is a critical dimension and it is not contained in the plans, then call the archy and have them get you the dimension(s). They make mistakes and have ommissions too.
One other word of advice; I don't know if anyone has mentioned it or not. You said that you had never been a lead, and you were basically working in a foreign land? My best advice would be to hire a local lead carp, and you can be the secondary.
sully
You've gotten lots of good advise here.
I'd only add that you ought to take the prints down to the local copy place and print up a couple-three extra sets before marking up the first.
Are you, in fact, GC-ing this entire, or only the carpentry?
If you are the GC for this, you need a set of plans for every other trade on site (and a spare set for the trade you will forget).
Since you are jumping in the "deep water" with this, it can be a real good idea to sit down with the plumber, the electrician, the foundation man, etc., each armed with a set of prints and a different color highlighter. Seeing how the plumber envisions a building in terms of running pipe & vents will "illuminate" some framing issues right away. Havign the plumber interact with the electrician, and especially the heating/ac guy (ducts & plumbing don't "share" real well; also there's "turf" issues with the hvac "plumbers" and the "real" plumbers).
Since this is your first time at this, get a clean copy of the plans (roll of cheap tracing paper over them, even better), and just start laying out the plate lines on the plan. Look at where you would set the plates. Look at where you'd build walls to lift afterwards (if you are box building; if stick building, look at where you are carrying the cut stock from). You will likely want to build shorter runs of wall than you presently imagine, if you are a first-time box framer (those walls get some heavy to tip up, especially with a small crew).
Do as much as you can on paper, as tracing paper or copies of plans are way cheaper than framing, delayed crews, stopped project, etc.