I have a general question for anybody out there. I am a builder in Seattle and am building a barn on Whidbey island. We are about to side the Barn with board and batten, the material being band sawn douglas fir cut from the property in october.
The Boards are true 1×10’s. My dilema is this: The architect wants the battens to go on the building first, then the 1×10 boards on top of that. So if I nail the edges of a 1×10 will it crack or split in the summer when it really dries out?? I know traditional board and batten siding is installed board on the building nailed only on one side to allow for shrinkage, then the batten on top to cover the board joints. Anybody have any tips??
Replies
Crazy world out there sometimes....But....
It seems to me that if the architect wants a non traditional application then he should stick his neck in the noose of responsibility and create the application specs for you to use. If the set up has problems latter then it comes out of his wallet, not yours! Get the specs on paper....and keep a copy in the job file!
Put it back in his lap by pleading ignorance about the non-standard application and ask for his expertise in the matter.
IMHO........................Iron Helix
Iron Helix, Thanks for the reply, I am definitely taking your advice and making sure that this does not become my problem with the siding. I'm trying to convince them to go the traditional route but if not I guess all I can do is wait for the boards to dry out to 17% or so. That's my best guess on the problem. Thanks, Tim
So if I nail the edges of a 1x10 will it crack or split in the summer when it really dries out??
yes -
there is a 'board on board' technique of siding that is the effect the arch is talking about - I'll see if I can dig up the book tonight and post -
until then a tip of the hat to Iron H - - good advice - -
Tim, just how wide are your Batts?, I'am also curious as to what lies behind this "siding". Jim J
I agree, architects quite often want something that is not of the norm, and if you don't get them to stick their neck out they will chop your head off at the first chance they get. It seems to me that this way of installing the B&B will cause many problems down the line.
Actually Tim, the archeytect is detailing a better way of doing a board and batten siding....it is called reverse board and batten.
The idea is that installing the battens first minimizes the number of nails in the wider board, thereby reducing the potential for splitting due to movement in the wider boards. Also with the battens behind, you have better airflow on your siding which will greatly add to the stability and longevity of the siding.
I generally use a 5" batten with about a 1/2" gap between boards. Nailing the boards about 1-12" from the edge, every 16" on my blocking layout. Two nails only.
Hopefully you will use an penetrating oil finish rather than paint.
The idea is that installing the battens first minimizes the number of nails in the wider board
I don't understand this - - if I apply traditional B&B, I nail the board near the center with one nail, apply the battens with their nails going in the spaces between adjacent boards - this allows the board to shrink and swell and slide behind the batten, which serves to keep the board flat on the wall - - anytime I have placed more than one nail in the boards, I have had splitting -
I have a friend who did board on board by using 6" boards, the same under as outer - - winding up with almost double coverage, but still only one nail per board, no problems - -
In over thirty years of working on old and new houses, barns and other assorted structures from New England to the west, I have never run across any B&B nailed with only one nail.
Not saying that it won't work, but from my experience with wood siding, the nailing is insufficient to adequately hold the siding and expect it to remain viable over any length of time.
When I posted saying two nails, I was thinking of my experience and observations. I would never consider using only one nail and expect it to last for any length of time.walk good
I'm new; please forgive. I'm trying to reach David 'Doud and might have this wrong. I've read and studied all past B/B postings as of this week, June 15, 04. My question: yes/no for strapping under the Board and Batten? I'll have pink 1/2" extruded foam + Tyvek under, and white pine for B/B. Seems to me yes for air drying but no for tightness to wall. Relevant details: My sawyer says never to use summer cut white pine...so I'll have to pay more for some stored last winter cut he can find (1.10/bf instead of 70cents in winter). I asked him if hemlock would be good, and he didn't seem to know, and he sneered at poplar--very common here in N.C. Anyway, he can get me nice white pine boards 12 inches wide and says this white pine (winter cut, when sap doesn't run) doesn't warp & split much-- remember I'm paying more for last winter's cut, which already has dried much, and will dry another month more. Someone told me white pine is good at not absorbing water. So here's the second question, since I seem to be getting set on white pine: is one nail enough? everyone differs on one or two nails.... I do realize the batten nail has to be in the middle, missing the boards. Thanks for whatever help. p.s. here's some info from sawyer, who struck me as very knowledgable: he says the insects are getting almost 50% of our trees here in N.C. because the Forest Service won't let them cut isolating rings around infested areas the way they can in the west. All of our beautiful Hemlock trees are doomed, either because of some bad bug or global warming, or both. I've checked: every hemlock I've seen has the white blight on it. The pines are fast going also--beetles. All of you guys probably know all this, but what can we do to help?
Bill
First you are going to have to break your messages up, use paragraphs!
If you scroll back up you will see a post from David Doud, place your cursor on his name and click, you'll get his personal data, you can e-mail him direct from there.
Good luck and welcome
Doug
Forest Service won't let them cut isolating rings around infested areas the way they can in the west
Say what?
The Tree Huggers allow no cutting of anything here in the West.
Let it burn is their motto.
Call our lawyers is their number two motto.
Joe H
Sorry Bill, wrong David.
But I will offer my comments if it will help.
For board and batten, you will need some sort of horizontal nailers. Personally, I would use 1x4 (minimum) for the nailer; much prefer 2x4 for the thicker nail purchase. The air space behind the battens is actually beneficial for the siding as it allows better breathability. I use screening as a bug shield.
Winter or summer cut pine, it should be dry regardless of cut before you install it. I would think the resin would stabilize the wood better, and if you use a good oil finish, it should not be a problem. Eastern hemlock is also a good siding choice. Used it quite often in Maine. Dry it has a tendency to split with nailing.
There are many thoughts on nailing board and batten. I tend to use two nails in the boards, maybe 1-1-1/2" in from each edge on the nailing regardless of board width. Battens, I nail one alternating each side about 12" apart. I find the batten holds tighter to the board and usually have no problems with the board splitting. My battens are usually 1x3.
I like hot-dipped galv, spiral shank, hand drived. Pleasant carpentry.
I have moved from board and batten to batten and board. I find it offers a tighter siding with less problems, though it offers a completely different look when finished. For that I can use a 1x4 for my batten and leave 3/4"-1" spacing.
It is the first I have heard about wesrtern NF's cutting rings around the beetled wood. I suppose that means taking the good trees and leaving the bad. I am unfamiliar with the NC wood, but the beetle and diseased trees here in the West, is principally the result of mismanagement...clearcutting, allowing even aged stands of single species, and fire suppresion. It will take a massive effort and time to correct the problem, but cutting only the mature healthy trees is not the answer. Drought is certainly not helping here either.walk good
Hi Bill, welcome to Breaktime -
I concur with DTHODAL post about 90% -
my experience is you want whatever you nail into to be substantial, otherwise the boards and battens will work loose - you can go thru foam if you want, I prefer to fit the foam between horizontal nailers -
I've seen lots of species used, in fact the oldest part of my house has cottonwood B&B - I think it was covered with lap siding within a few years and was just what was availible/cheap when g-uncle Bob was trying to keep the rain out - the key is to have drip edges and to avoid situations where splashing wets the lower ends -
really, it's a rather primitive system of siding that needs careful planning and attention to details to be a durable option on modern buildings -
I've got to disagree with David on the nailing schedule, I originally thought that one nail was not enough (Ken Kern's 'Owner Built Home' was my original resource, he says '1 nail'), so I put 2, spaced about thirds - north wall, only the most minor of problems - - south and west, another story, always get a crack between the nails, not a big deal, and they close up seasonally - - this is agrevated because I don't finish the siding beyond a splash of linseed oil on the end grain - - if you seal/finish the boards and therefor minimize movement, cracking would be reduced -
key to happiness is the battens, if they are well secured, a finish nail at the top and bottom of the boards would be enough - my last job, I screwed the battens with galv deck screws, pulls things down nice and tight and don't pop -
it saddens my heart, what we are doing to the woods - Chestnut gone to the blight, American Elm to the fungus, in Chicago, blocks and blocks of Maples pulled out to try to stop the beetle - - now the emerald ash borer is in my state - what a travesty and tragedy - - gypsy moth, and that's just the stuff of local concern - - until we value our childrens future more than short term profit, things will continue to deteriorate --
"there's enough for everyone"
There are advantages both ways but the reverse B&B does definitely NOT reduce the number of nails. Two is more than one any time I count them.
The advantage of the reverse B&B is the better airflow behind, but that is only an advantage when the boards are fully dry in the first place. Using green lumber in this manner will gaurantee splits and checks..
Excellence is its own reward!
If you nail your batten over your board you have twice the nails thru the board...the two holding the board to the wall and the two holding the batten. Unless you suggest one nail is sufficient to hold the batten.
By nailing the batten on first, the two nails on the batten do not secure the board at all. Thus two nails, which allows less stress in seasonal movement.
Using green lumber in either method is asking for splitting or checking. Still if green was all I had to use, I think I would use the reverse board and batten and hope that the more even air flow would mitigate any problemswalk good
I build right down in the South Puget Sound area, Tim, close to 25 years around here, and unless that building never gets any direct sunlight, those fir 1x10s are gonna split, no matter how you nail them. Fir is a poor choice for exterior trim or siding here in our climate - certainly nothing I'd want to stake my reputation on.
Jim, Never have built around your area. When I lived in coastal Maine, we used alot of eastern hemlock for board siding as well as some spruce and eastern white pine. I know e. hemlock is similar to doug fir.What causes the problems with the doug fir for you?
The hemlock needed to be nailed green. Otherwise when dry, and nailed it would split like crazy.
Here in Montana, we have less moisture problems. Actually the biggest problem is drying out. Seen quite a few old places with doug fir boards that are still sound after 100 years.
Another question for you: using a solid sheathing like plywood, instead of a more breathable board sheathing, does that increase the likelyhood of splitting? walk good
Douglas Fir gets too hard, splits and cracks around here, David. Maybe we have too of dramatic moisture swings, I don't really know. It doesn't hold paint well either. Not a good choice.
Sounds like a fine process to me. The only suggestion that I'd make is don't side the building for a year. Sticker the cut boards under a roof of some sort till then to let them aclimate. It's not like flooring that has to be 7% humidity, especially considering it will be on the exterior, but the wood definately needs to be in the range it will be exposed to. There will of course be annual movement within each board to contend with. is there any way to make the batten the flexable piece or possibly the connector (hardware) itself?