Board and Batten Siding on a Horse Barn
I’ve picked up a job that includes siding a run-in pole barn. Owners have already ordered the siding. It’s green poplar, 1×10 boards and 1×4 battens. Not my choice on board dimensions, but…
I’ve seen green poplar shrink like crazy, so, I’m thinking of spacing the boards 1″ apart, and only nailing the centers. Heart side out… and a smooth shank galv. nail.
Battens, I dunno. Pre-drill for screws? It’s only a barn, and I am only an anal trim carpenter… overkill? Just nail it and be done? Rip the 1x10s in 1/2?
‘Nother thing, there’s only 3, maybe 4 horizontal framing members… I’ll get pics tomorrow.
We’ll have a kid Or maybe we’ll rent one He’s got to be straight We don’t want a bent one He’ll drink his baby brew From a big brass cup Someday he may be president If things loosen up
Replies
I think you need 1 x 12 boards and narrow 1 x 3 or wide 1 x 2 battens (should be about 2 1/4" wide) for it to look right. 1 x 10 and 1 x 4 is too narrow for the boards and to wide for the battens IMHO.
When I did this type of siding before using reclaimed barn wood I sided over sheer paneling, and using old wood I gapped the boards about 5/16 of an inch, using a loose fit carpenter pencil for a gauge, and this is old wood that won't shrink.
Three nails (width) about every two feet (height) for the boards with two nails for each batten about every two feet. Depending on the quality of the material you should be able to nail without predrilling, might want to dull the point of the nail.
"1 x 10 and 1 x 4 is too narrow for the boards and to wide for the battens IMHO."True for appearance butAll your advice is good for dry and reclaim, but he has GREEN wood. A 1x2 will end up with gaps time it shrinks. And no three nailing, That will pin the wood tight and not allow for shrinking, so the 10" will split.
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I guess I should have said in original post that the reclaimed board and batten siding I used had already been nailed in the pattern I described.
It (boards) had originally been nailed with 3 nails (horiz) and about 2 feet apart (vert).
Battens were nailed with 2 nails (horiz) about 2 feet apart (vert) so since I was reusing the wood I put the nails in the existing holes and matched the pattern where I had piece in sections.
I had good luck with dulling the point of nail before putting new nails in without any drilling.
There did not seem to be any splitting problems with the original install using that pattern, however the material itself was first quality old growth redwood.
It was important to me for it to look old, and recreating original nailing pattern was part of it, as well as the dimension relationship of boards to battens.
I would be concerned with cupping nailing only centers, and that would look worse than the occasional split IMHO.
While I understand your reasons for nailing the way you did, the only reason it worked was the high quality, dryness, and stability of the wood. Do that again today with the average flatsawn material and you will have a disaster on your hands. Two nails in the batten almost certainly means you have nailed thru the edges of the board, meaning there are five nails across each board.
Blunting a nail to punch, rather than split through is a good idea near the ends of boards. I'm more worried about the splits that will happen at the nails as the green wood shrinks.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
The battens nailed over edges prevents cupping.But when you nail green lumber out from center with two nails, you pin those twp edges tight in place so the shrinkage happens from center to opposite edges. That splits the wood right down the center so it no longer performs as a siding, only as a decoration of some rustic mess.when allowed to dry to both sides equally the cupping action will always be TO the outside growth rings, so placing heart wood out lets the edges cup towards the framing, holding tight in place with only the one nail in center.
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I'd use what the owners have, or have ordered.
But I'd be sure to point out that poplar isn't very good in outdoor applications.
I agree that 1X4's on top of 1X10's would not be my choice -- but from an installers point of view, it's all good.
Your plan is good -- enough space between the boards so that the batten nails won't hit the boards; nail the boards in the center, battens too. I don't think I'd bother with screws.
As for there being only 3 or 4 horizontals -- depends on the height of the walls, but three sounds weak in any case.
And be certain that the top end of each board, each batten, is protected from rain. And that the bottoms of the boards are not in contact with the dirt or the landscaping.
We do 1x10 boards and 1x3 battens. Nailing specs from the WRCLA call for 2 nails per board, spaced 3-4" apart, but for your green material I think I would either nail 1 in the center, or 2 just a few inches apart. Space the boards approx. 1/2" apart and drive the batten nails thru the gap, never thru the board edges. The battens are what really hold things together--we use 16d HDG spikes and predrill the battens for them. You need solid framing to nail everything to. We run solid blocking at norizontal at 2' OC but for a barn you can probably get away with less as long as the standards are lower.
With b&b siding you need to give some pre-thought to the layout. It's nice to avoid having a batten run halfway onto the edge of a window or door trim. I usually put blue tape across the entire wall and figure the layout on it, then start nailing boards.
well here's my 2 cents, FWIW, :)
2 nails per board, placed 2" in from each edge (leaves about 5" between nails)this will help deter cupping, one nail through center of batten, with boards spaced 1" apart, as you planned.
I would suggest double HDG for the nails, such as Maze brand. Break all butt joints on the horizontal blocking,with aforementioned nailing patternon on each board and one nail on the batten in line with the butt joint, maybe add more blocking for nailing??
Geoff
Don't space the 1x10, center nail it, and center nail the 1x4.
Prestain it or wait a year or so for it to shrink and stabilize.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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I've never had anything good happen when using more than one nail in the center of a siding board - even dry lumber will end up with splits -
in your case, I wouldn't space the boards anymore than is necessary to miss them with the batten nails, and I'd use screws for the battens - heart side out or not, the boards will make every effort to cup, and the battens are the only thing stopping them - the nails in the boards really are only for keeping them off the ground...
windows and doors? - stand a board up next to each opening, use the batten to case between the boards and frames - fill in the rest of the field - depending you might have to rip an inch off a couple of boards to make it come out even - or space each board an inch - it isn't a game of 64ths -
make sure you have enough blocking under the eaves and above/below windows to catch nails -
one refinement, if the owner has the time/money, is to chamfer the battens - set your table saw to 60*, stand the batten against the fence and take a rip on both sides of the front face - the batten will lay better and behave better - and look good -
and trim the boards/battens to length with a 45* cut -that will form a drip edge and retard deterioration at the bottom, where they always wear out first -
so like everyone (almost) has said center nail ..
but, surprised no comments on the "heart out" that means the board edges will try to lift away from the wall (yes, I know that's what the battens are for, but) .. as has been said before, always orient the weathered side of lumber to the weather the same way it grew in the tree ..
Edited 8/21/2009 8:29 am ET by wane
Thanks for the feedback.I've got to work with what I've got. We did beef up the framing/purlins with 45° kickers and 2xs on edge to make a sort of strong back.Poplar is a pretty popular barn siding here. We're going to keep it about 6" above grade. There shouldn't be any laps, if the lumber comes as ordered. Doud's 45° end cut is appealing. I'm thinking of having the 45° face towards the outside. Make it a lot easier for the HO to slop some Flood on it later, for maintenance.With the 10" boards, see any problems using 2 ring shanks in the middle, a couple of inches apart? Might keep the cupping down, and double the hanging power (most boards will also be hanging from a beam or a supported rake rafter).And, it's been my experience that siding cups away from the heart, is that right?http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
I'm thinking of having the 45° face towards the outside. Make it a lot easier for the HO to slop some Flood on it later, for maintenance.
Not a good idea, this exposes the end grain directly to the weather, just the opposite of what you want, keep a can of Flood or boiled linseed or such, handy, and coat the end grain as you go, facing it toward the inside, that way the water drips off the end without soaking into the endgrain, which speeds/promotes rotting/decay.
With the 10" boards, see any problems using 2 ring shanks in the middle, a couple of inches apart?
I'd stay away from the ringshanks, use the double hot dipped galvy's (Maze), they have a wider head for better holding power and removal (if needed), space them 1 3/4" -2" in from each edge of the board.
Butt joints in the field should also be 45`with the long point on the top board facing down, for shedding the water, coat those cuts with Flood, or the like, too.
Geoff
It will be mighty hard to re-coat the board ends with the 45 cut on the inside, dunno.Nailing that close to the edges will be asking for a split personality<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
here's some 45's on B&B
View Image
here's some splitting from using 2 nails (dried wood when installed)
View Image
and I wouldn't reverse the drip - better no maintenance than having every rain run over the end grain and wick up behind the board..."there's enough for everyone"
What?... I can't hear you... I'm jammin' to Solar Howard! Thanks.I like those battens, neat touch. Might just go with a small back bevel? And, I'm taking your pics to mean you think 2 nails in the center of a 1 x 10 will make splits?http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
"...you think 2 nails in the center of a 1 x 10 will make splits?"likely so - tho maybe if the owner ponies up for some old growth redwood....think about what the nails in the boards have to do - they keep the board from sliding down the wall - the battens do all the work - eh - it's a barn - but your attention to detail may get you a gig where you never have to trim a house again! - - how are you going to detail the corners?(you're welcome)"there's enough for everyone"
Why is it that on my 100+ year old barn the hemlock and white pine boards nailed with square nails at each edge and centres have not split appreciably to their detriment?
I have , myself, done much white pine B & B siding over the last twenty years and have seen no significant failures due to nailing patterns but have seen many failures due to poor flashing and roof details.
Just curious and the devils advocate.
s.
"Why... have not split appreciably to their detriment?"good question - I'd suggest that old growth, tight ringed lumber moves less than second growth - I'd suggest that something about the nails/nailing technique allows for a bit of movement - I'd guess that the barn siding conditions (exposed both sides) maybe plays a factor - most of my jobs (even on barns) have a weather side and and insulation/conditioned the back side, and even if the back side is vented, the boards struggle mightily trying to deal with equalization issues - I don't know - just throwing out thoughts - I believe you and the fellow earlier with the redwood - I also know what I've experienced, and that pict I posted is a real good summary of the experience I've had with multiple nails - "...poor flashing..." indeed - if this 'primitive' system of siding is used on modern buildings, common flashing details do not work - window and door trim, particularly at the tops, are generally an afterthought to appearance with no accommodation to how water must be shed - "there's enough for everyone"
Unseasoned hemlock, old growth or otherwise seems predestined to fracture much like sheep enter the world with an enterprise to exit it.
All wood siding must be installed to ventilate, barns or otherwise, and to be certain for much of my barns life the hay was piled hard upon the boards such that any wetting was not allowed to easily dry.
Like you, just conversing and sharing ideas
Could it be that a hundred years ago, they still knew to cure lumber for seven years before nailing it up, or that they used better lumber than is currently available because they were cuttting virgin forest with tight grain, or that they were using more heart vertical grain for these large boards and saving the summerwood for the battens and casings?I can't see your house, but I have seen all the above on old ones.I am also curious what you would call "significantly" since you used the word twice in this post. How many splits do you want letting rain in before you call it significant?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Only red wood around here is cedar, and oldest son and HO are heading to the mill tomorrow to pick up poplar (siding) and white oak (stalls & tack room), so everything will eventually be brown.I was going to lap two boards on the corners, then oppositely lap 2 battens as corner boards?Does Howard mind if I share his tunes? I've got a buddy who would love 'em.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
"I was going to lap two boards on the corners, then oppositely lap 2 battens as corner boards?"
OK, but think about your nail placement on those boards - on corners I nail the board near the edge under the corner batten/trim and let it float under the adjacent batten - it's an easy place to get widely spaced nails holding the board - and if you are no luckier than I am, that puppy will split right down the wall...
I previously asked Howard and they gave permission to spread their music widely - go ahead -
http://www.myspace.com/solarhoward
View Image"there's enough for everyone"
You have that backwards.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have seen some nice work when it's reversed.. IE batten and board rather than board and batten. nail down the batten and then lay the boards on top.. achieves much the same thing with a differant look.