Greetings,
EDIT: Pretty Please….Someone has to know a few things about this. I am humble and bow the the many years of expertise before me…..I guess I just think different.
Lets keep it simple….Does everybody mortar in the beams afterwards? Why?
I just finished a home for another builder(way long story) and the Dreaded inspector is asking me to “brick up” and “mortar in” the ends of the steel I beams in the poured concrete wall beam pockets.
I could see the reason for fire concerns for a wood beam—But Steel?
Now, I humbly admit not being the guy with 25 years experience, but we did a great job and met all the safety issues….along with the Super High Quality work…and he insists that the steel may warp.
This is SE PA ….not the San Andreas Fault….and in my past life working with steel….Steel does not warp–Just because, in fact the house would be a “cigar butt” by the time the steel melted in a fire.
So could you fine people….
point me to the general area in the BOCA 93 Code where it says we need this for Steel?
Advise me of the reason behind this….Does everybody do it? (I’m only one house per year)
OK, the code may say…but what about reality?
Thanks
Jack
Edited 9/5/2003 7:45:47 PM ET by Got Pegs?
Replies
Pegs, assuming you're talking about a steel beam let into a foundation wall, I've never seen one bricked or mortared in. Not that I've seen it all. But I've always just had a beam pocket formed into the wall with some slop space around the beam, then set the beam on blocking to get it to the right height.
If anything, the code requires fire cuts on the ends of beams that are let into masonry, so if there was a fire and the beam failed it wouldn't pull the wall down with it.
Hope this helps. Maybe someone with different experience, or a code book, will chime in....
Got you on the fire cuts.....total sense.
Warp in a fire....Hummm? Yes these are steel I Beams in pockets in the foundation wall. We have 4+ " of bearing on each end and they are reasonable tight.
I suspect he's breaking my but. I could see concerns about warpage in second story, say long ceiling span, where the beams are supported by framing.
Well Thanks guys, you are always a big help. I'd still like to have a code reference if anyone knows.
It ain't screwed up, till you can't fix it!
I checked all through my BOCA '96 book at work today, no mention of this rule, but a reference to steel and concrete work done to the specs of their respective industry associations. Checked the Mass. state code book, which is based on BOCA but more thorough in some areas--nothing. Checked my steel design manual from college--nothing. Can't find my concrete design books; must be packed away.
You could always ask the inspector where the code says this. After you COO.
I can only tell you that around here we have to fill the pockets with masonary material. I don't know exactly why, and I can't tell you what section of code refers to it (if any), from the time I first worked framing houses-early seventies- we always filled them in. If we ever neglected it, it was pink slipped, and we had to take care of it before we got a signature. I never have questioned it, I've just taken it for granted I guess.
Which reminds me-in one community there was a framing inspector that felt he hadn't done his job if he didn't find two or three items for a turn down. So we "salted" every job he inspected with three things that could easily be corrected, so he wouldn't come up with something totally off the wall that was next to impossible to correct. We used empty beam pockets a couple of times.
Steel will warp and pull out of the pocket in a fire long before an equivalent timber will generate a protective char coat.
...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Never have seen that done or heard of it until now. Must be a regional thing.
I would be concerned that the masonry touching the steel would wick moisture up to it and rust it.
Never knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run, he hates that.
Most of P.A. just started enforcing the BOCA code. Up until now it has been a free-or-all when it comes to codes here.
I've never had to brick up a pocket around steel. We just make sure it is shimmed properly. This guy may be reading the code wrong. Or, it may just be one of his little things. In N.J if the building inspector can't show it to you in the Code Book it isn't so. If he still pushes the issue you can call the state. Only problem with that is if you have to work in his town again. I'm not sure if P.A. has a system in place for when the inspector insits on things he can't justify.
I would brick it up and then ask him to show you the code. I'm betting he can't
Well........I think you guys are onto something.
The rest of the story.....As mentioned this house was/is very high end. A custom Timber Frame Home, which is what I build. (generally just the frame...this one was the whole thing).
Situation was, that the client ran out of his rental and moved in a week or so before our final CofO. We were doing punch list stuff and hey, it's his house, a small township and with eyes wide open, we jointly though it would be OK.
Then the Final walk through. I suspect the BI was a little bent that people were in so he went on a nit-pick hunt. He commented about the beam pockets and for me to mortar them in.....(we of course did pass our framing inspection months earlier) and went on his way around the house. Didn't mention anything else.
Wood beams....I understand, hey, the code, I understand. His perosnal "I wants", no thanks. Not having worked for a high volume builder before and not seeing this before, well, I thought I'd ask.
So now the question becomes: Do we do the easy route and "brick up" and move on or Challenge him and perhaps he finds more Nits to Pick on his next walk through....(perhaps he had some waiting just in case)
I hate to let these guys be king, especially when we built such a nice home...in THEIR TOWNSHIP.
OK, I'm done. Thanks
You could stand your ground, but if you had people living there before the COO I wouldn't push my luck. If you had been upfront with the inspector about the situation then he might have ok'd them moving in (it's worked for me in the past). But, if you ever want to work there again, just brick up the things and be done with it.
Once you're done ask politely why it should be bricked up.
Funny you should say that....We did ask the OTHER inpsector about moving in early....he said no problem. Then of course, he was out sick for weeks when the time came to do the final.
I'm not trying to be a tough guy, I just want the facts. Then, we'll brick them up.
Thanks again.
If it's not that much trouble, brick/mortar them up and have a nice day.
I have no idea about the way code enforcement works in your state, but here, the state code is the minimum and the local code official gets to enforce it any way he pleases. In the past when I challenged an inspector, my success rate was about 1 in 5, and then I had to worry about making enimies out of the inspector. That may not be such an issue in your case, since it sounds like you may not be building there again in the near future. Maybe I'm a kiss @$$ but what I would have done, assuming I had the materials on site, was I woulda started mixing the mortar, before he finished his inspection. They usually give me the thumbs up, and everyone is happy.
Just my thoughts...
Matt
I looked in my house and I have two beams and one is grouted in and the other is not.
But my case is a little different.
This is a basement under a garage floor. Temporary supports where put in and the floor poured in place.
The main beam is across the center of the has also has a center post. It spans about 24 foot and it is grouted in.
The other one is at an opening at one end of the basement where it joins the first floor of the house. This is on a hillside so the first floor is lower than the "basement". This opening is about 6 ft and has a steel beam that just sets in the pockets.
It was built in 79 under UBC, But the local fire department was the inspectors and while I don't know about this specfic part I don't think that there inspections where very detailed.
if it makes ya feel better...
I checked at the house in in today.....just about a year old.....
north of Pgh .......
Bricked tight!
all three of them.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
don't know anything about sealing it in ....
But I do know steel will heat...bend..and fail ...way before a wood beam will.
Steel heats and bends ...wood chars.
The charring of the wood actually helps insulate it from the heat of the fire.....
So maybe the inspector thinks trapping the ends helps it hold a bit longer?
How about ya ask him the reasoning ...after ya fix it ..and report back?
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite