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Boiler hook up???

upnorthframer | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on September 10, 2007 08:01am

In a continual pursuit to save money while building my own home, and for the sake of personal accomplishment,  I would like to install my own boiler.  I have installed pex tubing for in floor heat before but have never hooked up the boiler.  I know how to sweat copper, wire, and have general mechanical knowlege. 

I’m looking at a three zone system.  Considering a buderus wall mount boiler.  Do any of you have a good resource to educate myself on the proper installation of the system?  Web page? DVD?  Mag article?  I need to know the location of pumps, actuator wiring, manifold hook up, etc…  Thanks

upnorthframer

“If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!!!”

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  1. MikeHennessy | Sep 10, 2007 08:07pm | #1

    I recently installed a Munchkin boiler, 3-zones. If you google Munchkin and go to their site, they have some good example schematics in their manuals. I'd imagine Buderus has similar materials. Be aware that, depending on the system, you can have one pump with three zone valves or three pumps, one for each zone. I'm not sure that's shown in the schematics.

    Mike Hennessy
    Pittsburgh, PA

    1. rich1 | Sep 11, 2007 04:11am | #6

      Uhh...................  you do know that htp would like you to pipe their boilers primary/secondary? 

        The way you have it piped means you probably have no warranty.

      1. MikeHennessy | Sep 11, 2007 03:29pm | #8

        "you do know that htp would like you to pipe their boilers primary/secondary? "

        Elaborate, please. This setup is pretty much right out of their book! Did I miss something?

        Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

        1. rich1 | Sep 11, 2007 04:56pm | #9

          You missed the primary loop.  Check the diagrams.  P/S requires 2 pumps.

           

          Gas cock should have been above the union.

          Edited 9/11/2007 9:58 am ET by rich1

          1. MikeHennessy | Sep 11, 2007 05:18pm | #10

            The one-pump setup was specifically approved by the dealer since I was using the zone valves (as opposed to zone circulators).

            After your post, I got to wonderin', so I looked again at the HTP manual -- this is exactly the layout shown in Drawing 1A of the install manual. The only thing missing is the flow bypass valve that my dealer said wasn't necessary in this setup, since I wasn't using it for indirect HW tank. Am I missing something?

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

            PS: There is a gas cock above the union. It's up at the ell near the ceiling. Doesn't show too well in the photo -- just a dot of red.

            Edited 9/11/2007 10:23 am ET by MikeHennessy

          2. rich1 | Sep 11, 2007 06:57pm | #11

            In that case you are missing the bypass valve and your dealer doesn't know how to pipe a system.

          3. MikeHennessy | Sep 11, 2007 09:10pm | #13

            Thanks. I'll run it by them again.

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

          4. NRTRob | Sep 11, 2007 07:09pm | #12

            You use a flow bypass if your system circulator is too large for the smallest zone that might call. They happen to be making the bypass do double duty in that diagram to induce flow through an indirect, but that is not its primary function. If you have any noise when the zone valves open or close, or whining when only one zone is calling, you need a bypass. Perhaps you don't here, but if not it's because you don't have the indirect AND your flow rate requirements on the smaller zone are high enough for your system pump to supply it without erosion or noise. Really you want a differential pressure bypass in most cases anyway, not just a "flow bypass valve", but whatev... If you're using a UP15-58 there as a system pump and you're not on high speed, you probably don't need one (though if you're on low speed you probably don't have enough flow through the muchkin). Also whether to use p/s or not has nothing to do with how you zone (valves or circulators) it has to do with the flow rates you'll see through the boiler. Granted that is more variable with zone circulators (higher max flow) but it is no different at the low end (one zone calling) which is where you might see problems (i.e., not enough flow to pull heat out of the boiler fast enough). You might need P/S in this case since it appears that you are using a fairly weak pump, so if only one zone were open I'm not sure you're getting that 3 GPM minimum HTP wants to see.regardless, if your dealer supports you in this install they are on their own. If you aren't a pro installer there is no warrantee here from the MFG, I believe.We work with DIY'ers all the time and I am very pro DIY. I do, however, think it's a horrible idea having untrained people doing combustion equipment. Especially combustion; you do not have the tools or the experience to do that safely. Has anyone done a combustion analysis on that boiler?-------------------------------------
            -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
            Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
            http://www.NRTradiant.com

          5. MikeHennessy | Sep 11, 2007 09:12pm | #14

            Thanks -- good info. I'll follow up on it.

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

          6. rich1 | Sep 11, 2007 10:23pm | #15

            And if you look at the revised instructions, they don't show a pb valve at all.

          7. MikeHennessy | Sep 11, 2007 10:52pm | #16

            Well. That certainly adds to the confusion! ;-)

            Looks like this'll require a call to HTP.

            My supplier sized the whole thing, pump included, to work as shown. I'm assuming that there's enough flow from any single loop to keep the boiler happy, but I'm going to dig a bit deeper just to be sure, before the heating season kicks in.

            I appreciate the "heads up" from the pros in this field.

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

          8. NRTRob | Sep 11, 2007 11:08pm | #17

            well, it looks like you have zones of 1/2" pex leaving from there, right?the HTP manual specifies 3 GPM as a minimum flow rate through the boiler (though whether that is really necessary or not, I couldn't say... )... or at least that's the minimum setting of the bypass they specify. 3 GPM through one 1/2" loop is a crazy frictional loss, so it's not likely to happen here.EDIT: I forgot.. maybe you don't have a single loop zone, maybe all three work together? That would be odd but possible, and would allow a 15-58 to be sure of at least 3 GPM in most cases.-------------------------------------
            -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
            Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
            http://www.NRTradiant.com

            Edited 9/11/2007 6:37 pm ET by NRTRob

          9. MikeHennessy | Sep 12, 2007 03:10pm | #18

            The loops operate separately -- one per room. One pump that kicks in whenever heat is called for in any loop. Zone valve opens for the room(s) where the T-stat is calling for heat. If heat is called for, and the boiler & pump are running, one, two or three zones are open, depending on how many rooms are calling for heat.

            Like I said, I'll be doing some additional research prior to heating season. Seems like the 3 GPM is the key, so if I'm short there, it shouldn't be too hard to throw a BP valve in. All the copper is hooked in with unions and mounted on clips, so the whole thing comes apart in about 10 minutes.

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

  2. mbmmd | Sep 10, 2007 09:36pm | #2

    upnorth....sweating, etc., ie the actual physical connections to the boiler is not at all difficult as most of what you will need to know will be covered in the buderus manual.  but, and a very big but, you seem to be talking about a modulating/condensing boiler...these things need to be tuned like a ferrari and if you dont have the correct measuring devices, etc...then you are looking at problems down the line.  also have you done a heat loss calc., etc to determine your boiler size.

  3. MikeHennessy | Sep 10, 2007 10:55pm | #3

    Follow-up on my prior post, here's a photo of the Munchkin. It shows pretty much all the components in one spot. This one is wall-hung, so I made up a "boiler on a board" in advance -- put the whole works on a piece of ply that I could mount to the wall as a unit. Once the building was ready for heat installation, hooking the thing up only took a few hours for running the gas, and doing the intake/exhaust penetrations.

    As another poster said, you need to have heat loss calcs done to layout the radiant and size the boiler and other components. Make sure you find someone you can trust in that department.

    Mike Hennessy
    Pittsburgh, PA

     

    1. upnorthframer | Sep 10, 2007 10:59pm | #4

      Do any of you guys know of a boiler on a board type set up that is sold?  That way all I would have to do is connect the boiler to the piping??

      upnorthframer

      "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!!!"

      1. Clear_River_Construction | Sep 11, 2007 01:57am | #5

        try "climateinc*AT*gmail.com"they custom fabricate complete modulating systems for us ...
        boiler comes mounted on diamond plate, with all engineering donewe just hook up the PEX

        Edited 9/10/2007 6:58 pm ET by Clear_River_Construction

      2. MikeHennessy | Sep 11, 2007 03:27pm | #7

        My dealer mentioned that a few guys make them up for DIY'ers, but then he mentioned the price. Cheaper to pay someone to just install the thing!

        Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

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