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Brand/type Epoxy for Metal to Concrete

ETG | Posted in Construction Techniques on March 21, 2006 09:45am

I have a fairly large chapel with about 30 rows of oak pews on carpet over concrete.   The chapel has radiant heat but it was installed over 20 years ago and the piping is less than an inch from the surface.  A half dozen of the pews have failed anchors – they’ve cracked the cconcrete around the anchor.  I’ve tried hydraulic cement around the anchors but there is really insufficient depth in some case for a solid repair.

I’m thinking of expoying small steel angle stock – 1″ x 1′ flange by 12″ long directly to the concrete floor.  I would slice the carpet under the pew leg sufficiently to apply the expoy and angle and then let the carpet lay over top the angle.  The one flange would then be attached to the leg to anchor the pew – all this would be under the pew so there it will not be noticable or be a tripping hazzard.

Does anyopne have experience with a good epoxy to attach the steel angle to the concrete floor?  Overall the floor is in good shape from what I can see – so I just need a good, reliable expoy.  Any suggestions?

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  1. paul42 | Mar 21, 2006 10:40pm | #1

    I'm hoping somebody can come up with a better answer than I can give you.

    But, the epoxies that I have seen have no give to them at all.  With changes in temperature, the angle iron will probably expand and contract enough to break the epoxy bond.

    If you want to use epoxy, maybe use that instead of the hydraulic cement?

    If you want to use the angle iron idea, I would use one of the polyeurathane construction adhesives.  They have a little more give to them than the epoxies.  I've used some specifically made for bonding to cement and it is quite strong.

    1. ETG | Mar 21, 2006 10:47pm | #2

      Thanks - you made some good points.  Epoxy is not the most resilient glue.

  2. Frankie | Mar 22, 2006 12:52am | #3

    Hilti makes a syringe type of epoxy - 2 part - which mixes in the proper ratio, as you squeeze the syringe. You inject it into the hole and then stick in the bolt, screw, anchor and screw... It sets up in minutes or less.

    This way you can use the existing holes which have the failed anchors. I would skip the anchors if you used this method of epoxy.

    Be sure to blow out any loose material including but not limited to dust before you inject the epoxy. You will have better results if you inject enough so there is squeeze-out when you insert the screw.

    I would try this first. Minimal expense and does not prevent you going to the steel angle method if it fails.

    Frankie

    There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.

    —Hunter S. Thompson
    from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

  3. User avater
    IMERC | Mar 22, 2006 01:14am | #4

    run a sample repair with PL400...

    you may be surprised...

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

  4. davidmeiland | Mar 22, 2006 06:58am | #5

    You will be miles ahead if you can use some type of shallow anchor into the concrete. Of course you must first locate the radiant tubing so you don't hit it, but there are ways to do that... a thermal imaging camera is a good one.

    Around here I can get what are called 'split anchors' that drive into 1/4" holes. They ROCK!

    As mentioned above, epoxy is brittle and I don't think a flat bond between concrete and steel is going to hold well.

    Call your fire department and ask if they'll bring their camera over and 'see' the tubing for you. Some inspection and engineering companies also have them.

  5. RalphWicklund | Mar 22, 2006 07:07am | #6

    Can you determine the distance from the original holes to the piping? I would "think" that care was used in the original installation so they are not too close.

    Using the original holes as a center point, use a coring drill to extend the depth and diameter of the original hole. Then the hydraulic cement will work.

    Yeah. If you can get the imaging tool you are home free.

  6. ponytl | Mar 22, 2006 07:35am | #7

    i think the pl400  is the way to go.... i use a product   not sure if you can get it everywhere brand name VULCUM  it's a poly in a caulk tube  it's what i hold alum storefronts in with when attaching to brick sides and concrete floors... even to steel headers i think the more surface area the better  so maybe if you can get a sheet metal shop to bend you some 2" x 1" angle that would give you alot more surface area to bond to the floor... i'd do it exactly like you say I'd just wipe or blow the concrete off the best i could  set the angles in the poly  let it sit for 24 or more hours then screw your pews......and i don't think you'd have a problem... if you ever need to remove it... a piano wire run under it will cut it loose...

    p

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Mar 22, 2006 07:46am | #8

      scope what the man had to say..........Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

      Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      1. User avater
        razzman | Mar 22, 2006 08:11am | #9

        There it is. Vulkem. Always have to do a search 'cause I can never get the spelling right.

        http://www.rpm-belgium.be/coatings/vulkem.html

        That is some great stuff. Wish it were more readily available in the little burgs.

         

        be a Spock

         

          

         

        'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity

        1. ETG | Mar 22, 2006 02:43pm | #10

          Thanks to all that replied!  The radiant piping - don't think it's plastic tubing - was installed in the early 80's before products were really developed for this type of heating.  Thermal imaging might work and I may try it at some point.

          Anchors are working in most cases - there are probably a dozen sections at most that are casuing problems.  I will look into PL400 and the similar epoxies - I am familiar with the Hilti product - never used it but they do have a whole line of speciality epoxy products.

          Sometime dowe the line - whether a year or 5 years or so, we are going to have to replace all that old tubing - there have been several leaks before I got here.  While radiant is great, we may end up with baseboard as a more reasonable solution than digging up 2000 sq ft of flooring!

          Again thanks to everyone for the responses!

          1. notascrename | Mar 22, 2006 06:03pm | #11

            I use a product by MTB (Master Builders Technologys) called Concrehesive 1420 to fasten steel to concrete and stone fairly often. works great. I'd drill i/8 inch holes in the angle to give it more "tooth" and freshen the surface of the concrete with a small grinder or surfacing chisel before bonding. be sure plate is in the right place when it cures as you'll only get it off with a big chunk of concrete glued to it. The glue is not very expensife but the gun and mixing nozzles are, so I' forego them and just get the stuff out on a scrap board and mix it that way. Cure time is long so you will have plenty of time to get things set. Wash the steel free of oil ( yes, it's on there) and go for it. Jim Devier

          2. ETG | Mar 22, 2006 07:16pm | #12

            Thanks!  I will definitely check it out - we have some other applications where I can use a product like this - again many thanks!

          3. User avater
            razzman | Mar 22, 2006 10:00pm | #14

            http://www.dextragroup.com/products_fiberreinforceed_polymer_cfrp1.htm

            Recommended Structural Adhesives include :

            - Master Builders Concresive 1420

             

             

            Boy, that 1420 must be some good stuff.

             

             

              

             

            'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity

            Edited 3/22/2006 3:02 pm ET by razzman

          4. notascrename | Mar 23, 2006 05:34pm | #15

            Area where I build is north Alabama where we have nice bottom land divided by steep limestone ridges. naturally the most desirable place for somebodys McMansion is in the most unlikely place (I tell people that I build Improbable things in impossible places). Site work on a lot is a real crap shoot- you tell'em what you think about how the rock,trees etc. look, give them a range (can vary 50k) and find out how bad they want the thing built there. Finishing one now took 230k befor the first conc. was poured (they must have really wanted that indoor pool). All this has to be fastened securley to the rock-don't want this pile sliding off the mountain,look bad on the resume sp?. lots of steel, lots of holes and glue. find out all kinds of neat uses for glues like this. Jim Devier

          5. User avater
            razzman | Mar 23, 2006 06:15pm | #16

            Boy, sounds worthy of some pics.

            Got any?

             

              

             

            'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity

  7. atrident | Mar 22, 2006 09:11pm | #13

      Sears and auto parts stores have thermal imagers for around $50.

  8. edward3 | Mar 23, 2006 10:54pm | #17

    Go to west system .com and read about fastener bonding with epoxy, I think this is the link for the issue of bonding in concrete

    http://www.epoxyworks.com/21/index21.html

    Let's compromise and do it my way

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