I’m going to upgrade my electrical service. Just wondering what you people think about the various brands of circuit panels. I’d like to get reasonable quality at a fair price, which I suppose is another way of saying value. (This is residential so wear-and-tear and abuse are not issues.)
Are the “brand name” lines carried in the Big Box stores the same quality as the lines of the same brands available through electical distributors for residential use?
Look closely at these common locations for hazardous materials in older homes.
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I have recently looked at 100amp electrical breaker panels and there didn't seem to be a lot of difference in price for the panel itself, although there was some on the breakers. Several past posts on this subject, if I remember correctly, tended to get agreement on Square D QO panels (not the Square D Homeline) as the most favored with Siemens close behind.
The last stuff I bought at my local electrical supply store was marked up about 40% over the same item at the local big box. The counter person indicated that they would probably give me a 40% discount on purchases if I qualified for an account at their store, but I didn't have time to try and see if I could get an account.
Edited 8/9/2007 12:01 am ET by CaseyR
Seimans also makes the Murray label, which you will se alot of.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Oh, good Lord, no. But I can give him two dollars and an assault rifle.
Yeah, my rental house which I am currently fixing up in the SF Bay Area has Murray and the local Home Depot carries it but I don't remember it being in the stores up in Oregon which, I think, carry Siemens.
I think the breakers are compatable across the two lables.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Oh, good Lord, no. But I can give him two dollars and an assault rifle.
For residential I prefer Square D Homeline. I think it's a better product than the Murray and Cutler-Hammer panels common around here. I never thought very much of the GE stuff, it's overpriced and seems no different than the rest, plus GE has a weird proprietary CTL bussbar that rejects some of their own full-sized breakers at the bottom.
The Homeline breakers are beefier and have a nice bussbar clamp that feels more secure than the other brands when they're plugged in. They also have a dab of some kind of anti-oxidant in them. The breaker lug screws are wide and flat so there's a lot of metal-to-metal contact for the incoming wire.
All aound a better system.
Ed
I like the Square-D QO myself, but I can't give you any really good reason.
However, the one thing I will point out is if you have other panels, like a sub-panel or a separate service in an outbuilding or something: use the same type. It simplifies have spares.
>>However, the one thing I will point out is if you have other panels, like a sub-panel or a separate service in an outbuilding or something: use the same type. It simplifies have spares.
I was going to do that when I put power in my new garage. I've got a Square D Q0 panel in the house, and I think it's a great setup- feels much more rugged and secure than the others I looked at - though I'm far from an expert on these.
However, the Q0 box and breakers were enough more expensive that I decided to go with a Siemens 100A panel for the garage.
As far as sources, I got my box thru my uncle, who is an electrician. I'm pretty sure he charged me his cost, and it was still more expensive than the identical box at Lowes.
On the other hand, since my costs were material only, the price difference seemed significant. If you're paying someone to do the work, the difference in box & breaker costs probably becomes a fairly small part of the overall job cost.
Don
Here's how my personal preferences rate and why:
SquareD QO - Cadillac of breakers, super fast breakers, that's why they are expensive
Seimens - Basically the same performance of a Murray panel, only made better. slightly different internal configuration
Murray - arguably the most popular in terms of getting parts and economy of scale.
GE - standard and unique products (100A apartment panels in White) available in the big box stores. well built but can be finicky on breaker fit.
Cutler/Hammer - hard to find parts
Bryant - same as above (although I do like the color coded breaker handles)
Square D Homeline - why bother... with all the other choices above, they are the new kid on the block... it's sort of like buying a Cadillac pickup truck.
that was fun!
Jeff
"Cutler/Hammer - hard to find parts
Bryant - same as above (although I do like the color coded breaker handles)"Bryant (nee Westinghouse, Challenger) has been out of business for a number of years.They are now made by CH as the BR series.Around here both the CH and BR series are commonly available..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
When I replaced my service panel, I opted for the GE. Around here, it's the best value for the price.
I looked at the Square D QO panels, but they were expensive and IMHO unsafe. The cable coming into the box (ie the cable from the meter) is more exposed than in other brands - so a slip of the screw driver will short them out. On the GE, it's difficult to impossible to short out the mains.
Rex Caudill has a bit in his book where he talks about choosing panels. IIRC, that book is where I first learned about the safety flaws in the Square D products.
If you dig up some of the independent tests, GE/Cutler Hammer/Eaton breakers were the ones that lasted the longest - Square D breakers didn't do so well, even the QOs. Based on everything I have seen, Square D is just not a good product.
BTW, the box stores often have closeouts when they change brands or get new models. I could have gotten a Square D 200A 40 breaker panel with 15 or so breakers for around $50 on clearance at the box store, but opted to pay a bit more to get a GE from the local electrical supplier.
If you can find a friendly electrician, they may sell you the parts at their cost - which will be significantly lower than even the box stores.
Safety Flaw's ...in Square D ..????the QO are the only breakers that RELIABLY trip in one, or two cycles .....Cutler Hammer "brown" handle .. is next best ..Semen, Murray, Bryant ... just hum, while the Fire starts ..
the QO are the only breakers that RELIABLY trip in one, or two cycles .....
Not according to the lab testing. The same lab testing that was the basis for adding AFCIs to the code. NONE of the breakers - including QO - tripped reliable for low level faults, or most faults likely to occur in a residential setting. Kind of scary, actually.
If you have seen a report or test that shows that QO's trip reliably, please post the information - I'd be interested in reading it.
I NEVER said .."Arc Fault"
Square D QO trips reliably in two cycles, or less ..on Thermal Overload, or Short circut ..NO Breaker, other than a Microprocesser based breaker ..
can protect against Arcing
Square D QO trips reliably in two cycles, or less ..
on Thermal Overload, or Short circut ..
Yeah that's what I've always heard. For plug-in breakers they've always been very well-regarded in the electrical industry.
If someone has some lab results that demonstrate flaws with QO equipment, well, let's see it.
Ed
"Square D QO trips reliably in two cycles, or less ..on Thermal Overload, or Short circut .."Look at the trip curves. All molded case breakers (the class that we are talking about) has similar trip curves.And they all have long trip times for low overloads. IIRC several minutes for 130% of rated currents. That is the thermal trip. And it decreases for higher overloads. That is the TIME-INVERSE characteristics. And if you did nto have it you the breakers would be tripping everytimes the refigerator or AC started.At very high overcurrents, typical of a short then a magnetic trip is used and it is very fast..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Just a reminder here ..ifn' ya buy one Company's Load Center, and anothers Breakers ..it ain't a Listed panel, no mo ..
"Just a reminder here ..ifn' ya buy one Company's Load Center, and anothers Breakers ..it ain't a Listed panel, no mo .."Not true.The the breakers need to be listed for use in that panel. And many are listed for use in other brand panels.That is general.And specifically CH has out a letter giving a cross reference of all the previous brands and models that the BR series fit.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I NEVER said .."Arc Fault"
I know, but only an AFCI will have the performance you claim for "normal" overcurrent - most breakers, including square D, will not trip at all for arc faults or moderate overcurrent.
If you have evidence or test reports to the contrary, please post them. But tha's what every test report I have seen says, and what all the manufacturer's reps (including Square D) admit.
Really, Square D breakers are about the same as the others. If you want to pay more for their name, that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking you are getting better quality or something.
Have owned 2 houses.
First house totally rewired, and service upgraded, Square D panel with QO breakers - electrician recommendation.
Breaker went bad for unknown reason in Square D - went to supply house #1 (Square D dealer) - bought new breaker for $x, replaced - all good.
Second house, some upgrades to original wiring, addition added, service and panel upgraded, Cutler-Hammer - different electrician recommendation.
Breaker went bad in Cutler Hammer after about 2 years - went to supply house #2 (CH dealer) - replacement was free - I only had to give them the old breaker, no $. Warranty.
I like CH because of apparent warranty. Both brands are readily available here although it would appear SQ D costs more initially and has a less inclusive warranty.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Square D QO are the only breakers in own house (other than lots of others on the shelves and in sheds)
Have witnessed and re-created industrial installations where a 400A 3 phase breaker tripped on a ground fault that was downstream of a 20A Siemens or GE breaker and the 20 A breaker did NOT trip.
Like Bill says, Gotta look at the trip curves --- in DETAIL, and then verify with independent testing at the ambient temperature of you panel if you want to discuss the subject objectively rather thant 'read it in a book by Rex' or other 2nd had drivel..
Like Bill says, Gotta look at the trip curves --- in DETAIL, and then verify with independent testing at the ambient temperature of you panel
I agree - and if you do that, and conduct the testing for various brands of breakers, you will find that there is essentially no practical difference between brands of breakers.
Please don't assume that because I am "low key" in my responses and cite more accessible sources that I lack knowledge or experience in this area. FWIW, I have done this testing, and have served as an expert witness in regard to breakers.
Regarding the testing you referenced, I would be very interested in reading the test report. Your results are incosistent with the independent tests I have verified and reviewed.
I suppose it's really a matter of what is most convenient for you to get ... and who will be in business still, in 40 years.
All panels can be considered adequately 'safe' and 'reliable.' The differences between them are fairly minor. As for specifics....
Siemans has the best / most versatile version of "skinny" 2-pole breakers. Not really an issue, if you're using a large enough panel to begin with, but might come up later. You also want a torx driver for the panel screws.
GE uses a breaker that has an entire galaxy of alternate replace brands available .... but also has my least favorite ground/ neutral buss design.
Sq. D generally has a user-friendly panel. Their 'Homeline" will accept breakers of several other manufacturers (and UL says it's OK). You will want a #2 Robertson for the panel cover screws, and the neutral buss screws, though.
The problem with any of them is availability. For example, if you're near Chico, Ca. you might have trouble finding Sq D. Reno, these day, is weak on Cutler-Hammer.
Whatever you do, you will do yourself a favor if you have every panel in the house to be of the same make.
Some guys get all hung up on panel construction details and engineering data. I can't really say I've ever seen that make the slightest difference in 'the real world.' Quick response? Fuses rule. Long term, minor overloads? You need a motor starter, not a circuit breaker. Arc Faults? The industry itself is still wrestling with that one ... the best 'solution' there is to megger test every circuit before appliances are installed.