I’ve got a 1960 ranch that I’m doing a ton of work to.
Here in So Cal, we have our breaker box mounted to the outside of the house. It’s in terrible shape (cover fell off), and I need to replace it anyway as it isn’t grounded to todays standards.
My issue is this: I have a bunch of old wires that I’m not ready to replace yet, as well as some new wiring that may just need to be re-run or reconfigured.
The old wiring is all 12ga romex, no ground wire.
The breaker box is located on the other side of the headboard in the master bedroom. Constantly opening up the wall to put in a new wire will earn me a speedy divorce.
I need to replace the breaker box now, and be able to access it easily in the future – including the ability to add new circuits. Here are some thoughts I had:
After replacing the box with a new one, I would have the electrician run new wires for the existing 16 circuits up to the attic. In the attic, there will be a large junction box. New wires and old wires would be stacked into the same romex clamp, inside they would be wire nutted together. When I get around to replacing an old wire, I can just finish it at the junction box instead of having to dig down into the main breaker box. I would also install a few extra circuits from the breaker box that go to nothing in the junction box – capacity for the future.
Plan B: Make a bump out over the exisiting box and install the new box over the old one. The bump out would jut out from the stucco 4 inches, and go down to the concrete and up to the single story roofline. The guts of the old breaker box one would be removed making it a big junction box. New wires would be wire nutted to the old ones, the new wires would go around to the new panel. The bump out side panels could be easily removed and replaced without tearing up stucco or drywall.
Any thoughts on this?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Replies
How about plan C: Move the box further into the house. Lengthen the meter-to-box wire and move the box (by which I mean replace the box) to a wall further inside the house.
Plan D: Install a new box, and run a 100amp( or more?) feed to a new sub-box elsewhere...
Brooks
I'm a firm believer in NOT telling my mechanic how to hold a wrench.
Explain to the electrician that you intend to eventually replace the old wires, and would like preparations made so that is easier to do in the future...then let him figure out how he wants to do it. There are several methods that might be considered...
It is also very possible that the existing wires are not long enough to make it into the new panel, so the guy will have to deal with that issue as well.
As it stands, you will still not have grounded circuits after you replace the panel. This is one situation where the use of the more expensive GFI breakers can be justified. Again, talk to your electrician.
Well, I don't have to tell him how to hold it... but I can at least clean the area off where he will be working! I want to have as many ducks in a row I can before I get sparky involved - that way I don't realize halfway through that I ment to put a beam right through where that new box is located.
Good point on that GFI - I think all the bedroom and bathroom circuits have to be arc fault as well - that means most every breaker in the panel is going to be arc fault - I'm looking at nearly $1000 in breakers alone YIKES!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"Good point on that GFI - I think all the bedroom and bathroom circuits have to be arc fault as well - that means most every breaker in the panel is going to be arc fault - I'm looking at nearly $1000 in breakers alone YIKES!"That came up once before and doing some googling it APPEARS that many cities in CA don't require AFCI on EXITING circuit when just upgrading the panel.And if required only bedroom "circuit" need AFCI. The orginal requirement was only for receptacles. Later changed to all OUTLETS. That includes lights and smoke detectors. So it depends on the version of the code used and also number of locals modified the NEC to no require AFCI's or only require them on receptacles.And I don't see any advantage to mass use of GFCI breakers either.First of all this is an outside panel and don't like the idea of running outside for a tripped GFCI. So I would use GFCI receptacles where needed.Secondly the mass use of GFCI's does not really gain you much. Yes GFCI's do allow ungrounded receptacles to be replaced with grounding type, but without a ground connection. But you need to label them as such.And places like bedrooms and living rooms don't really gain any safety by having GFCI protection. Nothing near by that is grounded for you to fault to.And things like surge protects and computer need a true ground for the full protection.Use GFCI receptacles in the bathroom and kitchen and other places speced.
Edited 8/6/2006 8:49 pm by BillHartmann
I encourage the use of GFI breakers, rather than receptacles, in this instance because:1) Existing wiring lacks a ground wire, and there is a convenience in having 3-prong receptacles;2) Old boxes, especially where the wires were soldered together, often lack the free wire and space for installing a GFI receptacle; and,3) The extreme amount of effort required to figure out which receptacle is the "first" in each circuit.
Paul,
I don't see a compelling reason to GFI-protect the whole house. If you want to, I suggest you use GFI receptaces because in a house the age of yours. Odds are pretty good that there are neutral of different circuits connected together, and a GFI breaker will not work.
I've seen much newer houses where some dope tied all the neutrals in a switch box or junction box together, even when the neutrals are for different circuits. The "logic" being that all the grounds are tied togeter in a box, so why not the neutrals?
Of course, the reason is that the neutral is a current-carrying conductor and the current-carrying conductors of each circuit have to be kept separate for a couple of good reasons--for one, so that the neutrals are protected at the right ampacity, and for another, safety--so when you cut power to a circuit you can assume that the neutral is dead too). You want all the equipment grounding conductors tied together at every possible point, for redundancy. The grounds only carry current in a fault condition, and the lower the impedance in that situation, the better.
As far as a GFI receptacle being a tight squeeze in an old box, yea, good point, but I've never seen any soldered splices in a circa 1960s house with rag-and-tar NM cable. Wirenuts were the name of the game--I've got a small collection of unglazed porcelain wirenuts from the early romex era.
Don't worry about figuring out which recep is first in the circuit, just put a GFI recep in each outlet you want to protect.
Better yet, leave well enough alone until you can take the time to re-wire the circuits one by one.
Cliff
That is one nice thing about romex... almost every circuit comes with it's own neutral!
(Of course, after 40 years of additions, remodels, and repairs, anything is possible!) A little suggestion... if you see relatively long, skinny wire splices, that are wrapped in tape, the chances are good that inside is a connection you don't want to disturb. Solder, crimp rings, coil springs are but a few of the 'before wire nut' methods.
Working the new stuff thru a big box in the attic is a good idea. Instead of a bunch of romex, run big EMT from the breaker panel straight up to the box. That way you just have to pull in what you need as you need it.
Even better, replace your outdoor box with one that just feeds a nice new sub panel in some central interior location, like a hallway. That way you don't have to go outside in the rain if a breaker trips.
-- J.S.