Breaker breaker, splintie needs help!
I’m helping my girlfriend get a house/property ready to split off and sell. The place had to have its own well drilled, so i got that done and a 220v two-wire pump installed. Now we’re getting the rest of the work done (burying line from well to cistern, etc) and i need to run a 220V circuit for the well’s pump.
When i got to the breaker box inside the house today, i discovered only one space free. (The PUMP marked on the panel is for the pump in the cistern, not the new well.) I would like to recover the other space i need by using half-space breakers to shove two circuits into one space.
However, i discovered another breaker already had TWO black wires on it. This seems wrong…or is it? Should i replace this with half-breakers as well? Or can i pigtail them and put one wire under the screw in the breaker?
Question One: How many half-size breakers can be used in a box, a picture of which is attached? May i use 4 circuits’ worth of them in this rather full box?
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The two breakers, #12 and #14, feed the barn panel. One breaker is a 20 amp and the other is a 30 amp. I’m thinking this is not good…? They don’t have any cap on the flippers or anything to keep them together. (I just today put them next to one another; the original whiz kid had them separated in the panel.) The two breakers attach to #10 wire, with a panel in the barn about 100′ away, where the wire splits into (2) 110v circuits, lights and outlets. (I appropriated this circuit for a temp 220V supply to the pump, solely to clear the well of dirty water.)
Question Two: What should be done about these breakers? Can i buy just a matching 20 amp one to replace the 30 amp one, then connect them with a cap like the other 220 breakers have? Do such caps exist to be bought separately? I see they have a hole drilled in the lever…can one just connect the two levers with a piece of wire? Does it even matter, since they get split into two 110V circuits later?
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Question Three: If i can put the pump circuit in the panel, what size breakers do i use for the pump? The pump guy told me he wanted #10 wire exiting the side of the house. I’m thinking 20 amp breakers… Right? Wrong? Indifferent? <G>
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Lastly, i KNOW this is not the best solution. As soon as this project is completed, the house will go on the market AS IS, at which point i expect a buyer will replace the panel entirely with something more suitable for the size house it is. I’m trying to walk a line between doing it perfectly and doing it well enough to sell without any equipment or people getting fried and….i’m footing the bill until it sells so don’t go busting the bank, OK? <G>
Edited 1/4/2007 10:21 pm ET by splintergroupie
Replies
Regulations vary.
I'll answer the questions according to what I have been taught by the local electric company's inspectors for where I live...
1. Yes. You can fill up to half of that box with double breakers.
One note here. I do tend to do overkill when I do electric, and this is probably overkill, but it makes sense to me.. Don't use the half sized breakers for 220v. Just do all the 110v curcuits with the half size breakers, and that should open up plenty of space for 220v full sized breakers as you need them.
2. Are you saying the 20 amp and 30 amp breakers are used as a 220v curcuit, feeding that barn panel ? If so, I would replace the 30 amp with a 20 amp.
As such, since you would be replacing one of the breakers anyway, you might as well get a single 220v 20 amp breaker for that. That would also deal with the quandary about the breakers not being bridged.
And if that barn is any more than 25 feet away, or more technically, if the panel in the barn is any more than 25 or 30 feet away from this panel, I would think 10 gauge wire is probably on the small side. What is that wire run in ? Metal conduit ?
3. 20 amp. Right.
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Can you get a pic of the panel with the cover removed, so we can see the wires as well ?
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
I would like to use the full size breaker i free up by using a half-size breaker to replace the 30 amp breaker, is my thought.That's the only pic i have to post now.
i'd do it like you said... given the information provided... and yes i'd get rid of the 2 wires going to the one breaker... if it hasn't overloaded it todate then chances are it's not overloaded BUT arounf here inspectors don't like 2 wires to a breaker nor do they like wires madeup inside a panel (your pigtail idea) so you might want to get the split/half size breaker for this also...
p
nor do they like wires madeup inside a panel (your pigtail idea)
I've never done that on anything i owned, but i noticed when i had this panel open that one of the circuit hots was pigtailed to a wire coming out of the breaker...even though the black wire could easily have reached the breaker.
I don't get adding an extra wire-nut connection like that, but i'm still at the paint-by-numbers stage of electrical work myself, so i can't always tell what's correct and incorrect. I'll change that when i go back unless someone chimes in with a good reason not to.
how about a pic with the cover off..
is the panel rated for QO-QO breakers??
if it is install 4 QO-QO's and free up 2 slots for the well breaker..
or lug the buss bars and put in a fused disconnect for the well..(least money deal here)
replace the stacked wired breaker with a QO-QO breaker..
the barn line.. 2 - 120V circuts or 1 - 220V line.. subpanel in the barn?? the 30 amp breaker have a #10 wire hooked to it???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
how about a pic with the cover off.. That would have been a good idea. <Sheepish>
is the panel rated for QO-QO breakers?? if it is install 4 QO-QO's and free up 2 slots for the well breaker..I saw that "QO" on the door (visible in the pic) and googled, but couldn't figure out what it meant. How can i tell?
or lug the buss bars and put in a fused disconnect for the well..(least money deal here) Thanks, i'll check into that, just haven't done it myself yet.
replace the stacked wired breaker with a QO-QO breaker.. I can't use the 20 amp full-size breaker i'm pulling out (to replace with half-size) in place of the 30 amp and wire the levers together?
the barn line.. 2 - 120V circuts or 1 - 220V line.. subpanel in the barn?? The 30 amp breaker have a #10 wire hooked to it??? Yes, #10 attached to 30 amp. There is one #10/2 cable going to a panel in the barn, underground, in poly pipe. It enters a panel in the barn where it's split into two circuits for the barn. Pic attached.
I used this line temporarily as 220, only to flush the nearby new well of silt, after i removed all the 110 circuits from the breakers. It will be returned to the exemplary condition you see here when the new circuit to the well is installed.
the barn panel pic...
are those breakers stacked wired too???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Five circuits in two breakers, IIRC. It's lights and few outlets, could be consolidated...(*sigh*...i'll never get out of there)Can i put the 20-amp full size breaker i'm pulling where i'll put in the half-size ones, then use it in place of the 30-amp in this circuit back at the main panel, then link their flippers somehow, and save buying a double-pole breaker? Or will i rot in hell if i do that?
http://www.squared.com
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
http://www.squared.com
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
you'll probably will... oh never mind...
put the two pole in (or leave it be) and then put the fused disconnect in for the well..
cheapest way out...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
OKay! Now to find out how to install a fused disconnect...
cake and pie..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
is the panel rated for QO-QO breakers?? if it is install 4 QO-QO's and free up 2 slots for the well breaker..I saw that "QO" on the door (visible in the pic) and googled, but couldn't figure out what it meant. How can i tell?
QO is the style the of box and the designator for the type breaker to use...
what is the space avaiable count???
or lug the buss bars and put in a fused disconnect for the well..(least money deal here) Thanks, i'll check into that, just haven't done it myself yet.
cake and pie.. the cover off will be real helpful here..
replace the stacked wired breaker with a QO-QO breaker.. I can't use the 20 amp full-size breaker i'm pulling out (to replace with half-size) in place of the 30 amp and wire the levers together?
is the 20A breaker on a #10 wire also...
BTW.. the QO-QO breaker is full sized and has 2 individul levers on top of it...
the barn line.. 2 - 120V circuts or 1 - 220V line.. subpanel in the barn?? The 30 amp breaker have a #10 wire hooked to it??? Yes, #10 attached to 30 amp. There is one #10/2 cable going to a panel in the barn, underground, in poly pipe. It enters a panel in the barn where it's split into two circuits for the barn. Pic attached.
is the 20A breaker the other half of the 240V????
In my mind's eye I see the 20A on one leg to barn and 30A on the other...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
QO is the style the of box and the designator for the type breaker to use...Thanks.
what is the space avaiable count??? 20
cake and pie.. the cover off will be real helpful here.. Nxt time! <G>
is the 20A breaker on a #10 wire also... The 20 amp stacked one has (2) #12 wires to 110v circuits.
BTW.. the QO-QO breaker is full sized and has 2 individul levers on top of it...OK, thanks. I'll have to use half-size to recover the space i need, however. No problem, is it?
is the 20A breaker the other half of the 240V???? Yes.
In my mind's eye I see the 20A on one leg to barn and 30A on the other...That's a much better explanation of what i meant!
BTW.. the QO-QO breaker is full sized and has 2 individul levers on top of it...OK, thanks. I'll have to use half-size to recover the space i need, however. No problem, is it?
by half sized do you mean 1/2" thick vs 1" thick for full sized???
look at the full sized single pole breaker with one lever sticking out of it.... now vision that breaker with 2 levers sticking out of it in tandem and not side by side...
you will have to use 4 of those tandem breakers to gain 2 spaces for the well and fix that stacked wire deal and be able to put in a 30A2P breaker for the barn..
bring an extra pocket book to the store with ya...
is the 20A breaker the other half of the 240V???? Yes.
In my mind's eye I see the 20A on one leg to barn and 30A on the other...That's a much better explanation of what i meant!
and there is a stacked wire on that 20A also???
BTW... yur one conductor shy going out to the barn...
put the damn fused disconnect in for the well...
fix the feed to the barn...
add 1 tandem breaker to fix the stack...
go home..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTW... yur one conductor shy going out to the barn...
Doesn't look promising if i don't learn to count/type, does it?
put the damn fused disconnect in for the well...
fix the feed to the barn...
add 1 tandem breaker to fix the stack...
If i do a fused disconnect, i can put the extra Square D 20amp breaker i found in my 'stash' (YAY!) in the empty top space, and unstack that breaker. I see it all falling into place. I shall try not to be under it when it does.
go home..
Thanks for helping me through the thinking part. It takes so much longer than the doing part...
If i do a fused disconnect, i can put the extra Square D 20amp breaker i found in my 'stash' (YAY!) in the empty top space, and unstack that breaker. I see it all falling into place. I shall try not to be under it when it does.
so yur gonna leave that 20/30 SP combo to the barn???
or put in a 2P30A???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I thought Double Pole 20 amp. I'm guessing i'm wrong...
Like Bill says,QO breakers are marked to use with two wires, so it is OK with the NEC to have the two wires on a QO breaker. And yes to having smoke detectors on a lighting circuit. It does keep people from turning off the smoke breaker, but also lets you know if the smoke breaker has tripped. How else would you know? And, the big reason is that smoke detectors need to be on an AFCI protected circuit on new construction ( does not apply to you ), so it saves money to put smokes on a bedroom lighting circuit.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Smoke detectors...I guess this is one of those cases where local code veers away from sanity. I re-wired my own house from scratch three years ago and the inspector, who is a lot more impressive than most i've met, told me to put the smoke detectors on a dedicated circuit, so i'm sure he's giving me the legal dope. Like i told Bill, your way makes a lot more sense and i'll put my own on the lighting circuit, since i passed my final. Like i said, i haven't seen a smoke detector yet, so i'm not sure that circuit is labelled properly.
QO breakers are marked to use with two wires, so it is OK with the NEC to have the two wires on a QO breaker. I just took out my magnifying glass to read the 2 pt. print on the teeny label and it does say "1 or 2, AL/CU 8-14" It still seems a better idea to have different circuits on different breakers, but like i said, the very next owner will likely put in a 200 amp panel. Decisions, decisions...thanks for pointing that out so i would know.
Getting smarter by the post...thanks!
2 wires on a breaker fall back to AJA...
some say okay and others say no way...
here is no way...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Quit being so cryptic, man; they aren't charging by the word! <G>
What's AJA?
Does "here is no way" mean in this situation, or in your estimation? Why not, if the breaker is labelled for two wires?
All the why's....i have to know them...
AJA is the inspector... the final authority..
no way = not allowed, no can do... that is for this locale...
so what does a lable mean to those that believe they have been annoited to the job...
yours may be different..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"2 wires on a breaker fall back to AJA...some say okay and others say no way..."Not really. Unless the code is specifically amended. The code does say that materials have to be used in approved ways. And when the breaker specifically shows two wires molded on it next the UL lable there is no way that they can dis-aprove it.I believe that, because most breakers or limited to one wire (the excepts that I know of are the QO and Homeline, and one of the Culter Hammer lines) that all places where there are two wires are automatically wrong without actually checking..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"If i do a fused disconnect, i can put the extra Square D 20amp breaker i found in my 'stash' (YAY!) in the empty top space, and unstack that breaker."That is the one thing that I see that might be right.SD QO & Homeline breakers in the 15, 20 (and I think 30) amp breakers are rated for 2 wires. Look on the side of the breaker and it has the wire size molded in.Again if the load is not too high you can pigtail them.But you might want to check what the two loads are to see if the total load is not too much.I saw one breaker listed as smoke. If that is the only load on it then it can (AND SHOULD BE) combined with a lighting cirucit. That will free up a space. Note - some local codes require smokes to be on their own circuit. But that is not in the NEC. And most people thing that it is safer to combine them with a commonly used lighting circuit such as for the MSR, bath, or kitchen. That way the breaker won't be turned off to disable the smokes and left off.It appears that the label that is seen in the picture only covers the COVER and not the panel guts (some are sold as packages and other are bits that you combine). The panel will have a label that indicates how many poles and spaces that it will have. For 200 amp panels one common size is a 3040. That means that it has it will take 40 poles, but only has 30 spaces. To get the 40 poles, then you will need to use 10 tandems. A "full size" panel will have 4040 or just 40 in it.There are Exclusion Tabs so taht the tamdems will only go in to CERTAIN SLOTS. That information is also shown on the panel.So that panel might not allow for tamdems.But older panels don't have the exclusion tabs, but I have no idea when they where started.Pump breakers - you never gave the same of the motor so there is no way to guess what to use.Barn - I am completely lost on that. But I notice that there are no romex connector, at all on that panel..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Sorry to be tardy...i was at the Big Box buying provisions today. Hundred bucks for just the WIRE...gadzooks! =[
When i did my smoke alarm circuit, the inspector told me it had to be dedicated (right word?) to only smoke alarms, but i like the reasoning behind combining it with the lighting circuit.
The legend is maybe half-correct...and i haven't seen a smoke alarm yet, so who knows what that "smoke" meant to signify. When this project is done - well guy is coming on Monday with the excavator, howzat for service! - i'll grab my friend and a tester and do some plotting of all the circuits and re-do the legend so it's *current*, har har.
So...i bought a plethora of tandem breakers today, also some DP breakers, a 30 amp DP 220v to replace the 20/30 amp mismatched set, and a 20 amp DP to use for the pump. (The pump guy called me back while i was in Lowes, what luck! He said 20 amp.) I was advised that breakers were a better solution than a fused switch, and after i got a look at the size of the box for that, i felt the less obvious hardware the better, since the main panel sits in the kitchen.
I'll look for the poles v. spaces designation tomorrow. The panel has 20 spaces to work with and i only need to free up one more, then put tandems in two other spaces, to put every circuit on its own breaker. I hope it's the old style box, or i'll do a search to see where the tandems might fit.
Barn...i've decided i can't leave it alone, so i'm planning to put tandems in place of the single breakers, then put all lights on one circuit, married in a J-box, and deal with the outlet circuits after that. And no doubt, i should get some GFCI's...this'll never end...job security...
I notice that there are no romex connector, at all on that panel. Not sure what you mean...clamps? Nope, they didn't use no steenkin' clamps...
Thanks, Bill; it all helps! I'll be doing this work tomorrow, so i'll come back and 'show my work'.
Edited 1/6/2007 1:51 am ET by splintergroupie
"I notice that there are no romex connector, at all on that panel. Not sure what you mean...clamps? Nope, they didn't use no steenkin' clamps..."Yes, clamps.But they are called connector. A connector is used to join to items. In this case it is the romex CABLE to the box. Likewise EMT connectors are used on the end of EMT (thin wall metal conduit) to join it to the box."I was advised that breakers were a better solution than a fused switch, and after i got a look at the size of the box for that, i felt the less obvious hardware the better, since the main panel sits in the kitchen."This won't work for you, but I will through it out lurkers.But SQ D makes an exterior disconnect with a 2 pole MOLDED CASE SWTICH. The price has probably gone up a little, but they where about $15-18. It is rated at 60 amps.Well the SQ D QO breakers are MOLDED CASE BREAKERS. Wonders of wonders they use the same molds.You can replace the switch with a two pole breaker..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the specific definition of "connector"; i wanted to be sure you didn't mean wire nuts; there ARE those inside the panel, too.
I will get more pics today when i get there.
It's bitter cold and the wind is howling...hats off to all you guys who do this on demand! You DO get paid better, however.... <G>
think of the wire nuts as insulators...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Insulators...i see that function, too, compared to clamps only.I'm off to discover more about her panel and will report back. If i can't use the tandems, i'll have to stack the wires. I'll still have two many circuits in the panel for its designated use according to maddog, but....the very next homeowner will most likely want to install a bigger panel and the owner is willing to make allowances for that in the sale price. There is no one inhabiting the house in the meantime, so this might be the best route anyway. It is being sold "AS IS" for a number of reasons. Don't get me started on the zero-pitch valley on the roof... In the meantime, she has zero dollars for it, and i don't feel inclined to foot the bill or do the work for a new main service.
Edited 1/6/2007 1:58 pm ET by splintergroupie
not an electrician here
wouldn't it be easier to add a small auxillary panel for the pump?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
wouldn't it be easier to add a small auxillary panel for the pump?
Could be. This is what i get for thinking "inside the box", LOL.
This needs to be done tomorrow before the backhoe shows up, and i understand installing breakers, even if i don't know all the rules. I've installed main panels, but as 'kits'...never a subpanel.
I see the root of all your problems....
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Sloopy painter! :-)
Thought you were gonna say blonde roots....
Chicken!
LOL_______________________________________________________________
'what if there isn't a tomorrow? there wasn't one today' - Phil Connors
Sloopy painter? Sloopy splelar, you! LOL!
No, I meant Sloopy like that 60's song... ;-)
OK - may bad... Actually spelling was always a weak point for me. I actually took remedial spelling in college! It was a non-credit course. Duh! I try to always use the spell checker here but forget every once in a while.
Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses though - Me? I'm also a "sloopy" painter.... but not that sloppy... Actually, what I always say is that I'm a great painter for about 30 minutes.... then I get impatient and it starts getting done in a hurry... :-)
You want'a talk about Sloopy splelars though I could throw out a name or 2.... :-)
WHOA.......
from the part # for the cover, the SqD catalog lists ....ZERO...as the max number of tandem breakers that can be used in that panel.........
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Edited 1/6/2007 10:04 am by maddog3
"from the part # for the cover, the SqD catalog lists ....ZERO...as the max number of tandem breakers that can be used in that panel........."I don't have a full catalog handy and not sure that I want to try to find it.But since that is just a separate cover number how can you tell if the panel will take tandems or not?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
the cover matches what reads like her panel in the Digest...20 circuitsMax ..... 125A??Main..... and no tandems are allowedif that is the wrong cover....just a chance..and there are24 circuits available she might be able to use them... too bad the panel label is partially covered.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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ZERO...as the max number of tandem breakers that can be used in that panel
Well, that certainly throws a new spanner into the woiks...
I'll see if the panel even accepts a tandem, go from there. I'll still trade out the 20/30 amp, DP (mismatched) circuit breakers, and install the DP breaker for the well pump.
well, I hope I'm wrong....
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Update: I just got back from attempting to get to the site, but the snow's too deep and not plowed yet; i couldn't make it, had to back downhill a loooong way. I reckoned the excavator guy couldn't get a trailer up there, either, so we all agreed to wait for the storm to be cleared instead of beating ourselves and equipment up. I might be able to walk in tomorrow. Anyway, more later...
Splinter...I've read several of your posts here and you're intelligent but electrical is not your thing. I suggest that you give serious consideration to hiring, if only for advice, a qualified electrician. The system your looking at was wired by someone other than an electrician, it has too many faults in it to solve on this board
electrical is not your thing
Yes, but i'm even worse at cooking and cleaning, so fixing houses is all that's left to me. <G>
Whoa gurl!
Slow down - a title like that is likely to get you over run with testosterone dripping cowboys ready to lasso you and pull you free of a mud pit before you drown.
Something more sedate like " how do I fill up a full breaker panel"
;)
Since i don't know enough about electrons, this is the best I could do.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, amongst all the idiots looking for free expert advice, i had to do sumpin' to stand out of the crowd!I know a bunch more now than i did three days ago about possible solutions, which is a good sign. I've wired masts and panels myself, but i always got to start from scratch instead of with a sow's ear, so the finer points evaded me. I for sure never had to use a magnifying glass before!
you bought tandems?did you notice the mounting "hook" ?open the panel and look for slots that the hook will slide through under the rail that the QOs "snap" onto.....no slots....no go.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Yes, thanks for asking. I noticed the mounting hook while 'going to school' in Lowes yesterday. I thought i had the wrong tandem breaker, but i couldn't find any others on that QO shelf so i opened up a QO panel box right there and tried attaching a breaker, so i understand now how it works. I must have played in that aisle for at least an hour, seeing how all the stuff fit together...and no clerks 'bugged' me. <G>
I have seen two types of QO tandems at Lowes in the past. One with hooks and the other without. The ones without were for older panels IIRC. A supply house that carries Square D may have info, or search here:http://www.squared.comand look on page three.
Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
The cam-less tandems were for panels prior to 1967, according to your site, which has the most understandable and informative blurbs i've seen so far, btw...many thanks for that link! The cabin was built ~20 years ago by my GF's husband Frank (he unfortunately has Alzheimers now), but no telling if he used a ore-1967 panel until i inspect it. Maybe i'll load all my gear on a plastic sled and ski in...
they probably didn't dare...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm NOT going to ask you for suggestions about how i should carry the conduit up da hill....
how come???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
got snow shoes to go with that sled???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I usta have snowshoes, but sold 'em last summer in a fit of paring possessions. It's not so deep i can't walk it in Sorels, just too deep to drive. About a foot deep is all, but unplowed so far...and steep.
The road got plowed, so i was back to the panel today.In looking over the panel more closely, i noted so many issues that i decided to only replace the mismatched (20 amp with 30 amp) breakers to the barn panel with a DP 30 amp breaker (blue dots in "before & after" image) I found the single smoke detector, on its very own circuit, so i moved it to a lighting circuit, stacking the wires. (Sorry, Marty.) The thing sits on top of a beam, about 8" from and facing the ceiling. I thought they wre s'posed to face into the room...yes? no?There are also stacked wires on breakers on the right hand side that i hadn't noticed before, so to replace all with tandem breakers would be more than it's worth since the whole thing needs to be redone by the very next owner. Another stacking was of two circuits of kitchen lights on one breaker...seemed reasonable. Another stacking was of the outlets for a guest room and a small workroom, also reasonable for expected loads. In any case, i had gained the one more space i needed to put in a pump circuit. The blue arrows show where it entered the box and where i put in the DP 20-amp breaker for it. (The clamp doesn't show, but i used a tap-in one.) You might notice i replaced a 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp underneath that one...the wire was 12 ga.Some oddball stuff: I had the main breaker off, but as i was poking about, i realized there were three wires, two reds and a white, that had just been clipped off and folded into the box. I was a bit alarmed until i traced them and realized the red ones were because 12/3 wire was used for a 110v circuit...i've no idea why. The white one IIRC, came from a 220v circuit and hadn't been put in the neutral bus...? I just capped them all.There were stickers inside the right side of the panel box telling all kinds of info about what was allowed in the panel, but i couldn't read them with all the wires stuffed in there. The green sticker in the upper right is the inspection sticker, but no doubt that was before all the adding-on.It was ugly with a capital UGH underneath that house! Wet, too...good thing i used exterior rated cable...Off to wash the spiders out of my hair...
stacking may be perfectly fine where you are...
but that bottom feed to the panel would not fly.. think I said the panel was in upside down but you have an inspection sticker so JGA it's it's good...
smokes.. back to yur JGA...
that 15 / 20 swap... the 15 may have been sized correctly for something or a wiring size change down stream..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I bottom-fed my panel for this house about five years ago and the inspector thought i did a dandy job since i buried my line from the pole in conduit, double ground, etc. I don't think i thought it up on my own, either...i seem to remember reading something that said it was OK and the inspector gave me the go-ahead.The place isn't legal for location and number of smoke detectors, i know that. I just didn't know how an upside-down one would qualify.The 15/20 swap...i looked for 14 ga. wire, which would be the reason, right? I haven't found any anywhere at all, so i thought it was just likely what was handy, like the 12/3 that was used to feed a couple 110 circuits.Thanks for your help and encouragement. I'm not putting this job in my resume, but at least it'll be sufficient to get the joint on the market. It's already been appraised at $380K...boggles my mind.
Edited 1/9/2007 12:26 am ET by splintergroupie
Some panels, and I think that is one, are desgined so that the guts can be installeed in either orientation.Don't know my bottom feed would be bad..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
it's a real pain to discover that you now need to rotate a panel 180*
once was enogh but it did happen a second time.. (feeders too short)... grrrrrrrrrr......
sure gets the inspectors point / likes / dislikes across in a hurry.....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
So if the panel takes up the entire width of the stud bay, and the feeders come from underground, do the feeders have to go up in a different bay, then go through a stud to enter the panel from the top?Seems like a lot of extra hassle...
up thru the bottom up the side(s) and main lug or main breaker in at the top...
or come up a different bay in conduit and enter the panel thru the top...
also note on a lot of panels they are labled top and the main breaker fits in at the top and some have an L or T designator as to where the feeds and loads connect...
those little cheapo fused disconnects are labled that way so that line is top and load is bottom...
matters also in some switched diconnects so the the switch blades do not remain hot in the off position...
if you ever have to rotate a panel 180* you will remember that hassel for a long time...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
180*-ing that big wire inside a panel is something i would NOT want to do! It sure would cut down on the room in the panel to make the wires look purty, too.I saw the 'block' disconnects at the store and was wondering if they differ only in style from the blade ones or if one kind is better than the other, or do they serve different purposes, or...?
Edited 1/10/2007 12:14 am ET by splintergroupie
it's easier when you have the wire bending tool...
I saw the 'block' disconnects
pull disconnects???
was wondering if they differ only in style
different applications... HVAC, Hot tub...
the blade ones
that have the handle on the side...wells, water heaters, boilers
or if one kind is better than the other, or do they serve different purposes, or...?
each has it's job... Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I guess the proper name is a "pull-out disconnect", which may be fused or not.
View Image
Any idea why the pull-out style is more suitable for some applications and the blade type for the others? Customary use, or is there a principle i'm not seeing? I've been googling and reading boxes...can't figure it out.
pullouts are cheaper amp dollars and safer (or so we hope) in a wet enviroment (hot tub) because of the near 100% plastic construction...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks, Marty. I'm off to finish up the conduit now, then i'm free, free at last! And none too soon...it's supposed to drop to -15* shortly!
so yur the supplier for all that cold...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Not me...if i weren't such a warm-hearted wench i wouldn't be out moderating the arctic air mass at all.I blame Canada.
if you were so warm hearted you would build a wall or at least a diverter and send all that "stuff" "some place" else that's leaking out of the Yukon and being funneled straight thru here by the Purcell Range Corridor...
we can see that crap building from here...
visuals say UT-oh...
the bones say... awww this ain't gonna be so bad...
the critters are all acting like they're trying to find their last meal...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I drove as far as i could and walked in the rest. The road is glare ice now. Backing down was REAL exciting, nothing more than a controlled slide for a quarter-mile. Good thing i grew up in snow...still had my adrenaline pumping. The 10/2 exterior cable didn't want to go through the elbow in the conduit outside...i ended up using a hammer in an unauthorized manner. Next time i'll buy 3/4" instead of 1/2". While i was there, my friend asked if we could disconnect the radon exhaust fan in her own home, also on the property. It was routed through the same switch for the electronic controls for the boiler...bizarre, no? The fan is a $900 bill of goods the plumber, now out of business, sold her; one day i'll get a snake and find out if the pipes even extend under the basement slab. It exhausts horizontally, right next to the intake on the boiler, while the tech specs on it show vertical discharge only. Hmmm...
GRUNT..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!