Replies

1. 
   IMERC | Dec 09, 2006 03:26am | #1

   120 or 240V recepticale???

   2 circut w/ shared nutral...

   you didn't turn off enough breakers..

    

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

   WOW!!! What a Ride!

   Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

1. 
   mickman | Dec 09, 2006 03:38am | #2

   120 volt in a bedroom.Is it normal practice to have an outlet on two cicuts with a shared neutral? Why is this done? I assume its safe and in line with the code then? Thanks for your help, obviously I'm not an electrician.

1. 
   IMERC | Dec 09, 2006 07:59am | #9

   you know what is said about assume...

   shared nuetral is generally a cost cutting item... 

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

   Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

1. 
   toolbear | Dec 09, 2006 09:20pm | #13

   @@@  Three wire circuits - shared neutral...

   My 16th edition of Richter and Swann (Practical Electrical Wiring) is rather keen on three wire circuits.  Devotes over four pages to them.  Claim less voltage drop, as the load on one leg cancels the load on the other leg.

   Commonly seen under the sink for the dishwasher/disposal.  Best use a 2p breaker so both legs are disconnected and pigtail the neutrals to the outlets.The ToolBear

   "Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Dec 09, 2006 03:42am | #3

   What kind of "tester". They all have their quirks and you need to understand what they may be.

   What is the "left" side of the receptacle? Receptacles can be installed in many different orientations.

   And then you have one like this.

   "but when I connected the neutral to ground on the right side- it was hot!"

   Why would you ever connect the heutral to the ground? They should never be connected together except at the main service entrance.

   .
   .
   Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
3. 
   Jer | Dec 09, 2006 03:50am | #4

   What Bill said, also your tester may be showing a leak from somewhere and the line is not fully hot. And really heed what Bill said, don't connect ground to neutral, always keep them separate.

1. 
   torn | Dec 09, 2006 04:39am | #5

   I'm guessing the OP meant that when he tests across neutral to ground with his tester, he gets the indicated voltage. Not that he is wiring the neutral to ground.

1. 
   Jer | Dec 09, 2006 05:39am | #6

   I see. Perhaps so, that would make more sense.

4. 
   MSA1 | Dec 09, 2006 06:59am | #7

   My guess would be a shared neutral. I got zapped by that once.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Dec 09, 2006 07:40am | #8

   And it could be an "illegal neutral" where they someone tried to put of a neutral for a different circuit. Or the neutral might have been used as a hot and the ground as a neutral..
   .
   Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

5. 
   MisterT | Dec 09, 2006 05:15pm | #10

   is is a  split-switched outlet ???

   one recept is fed from breaker the other is separated by breaking off two little tabs and is fed from a switch.

   if the switch is on a switch leg then the white wire maycoming from the switch may be hot(when the switch is turned on) (and should be marked as hot with colored tape or marker) 

   "Dogs don't follow an emotional leader. They follow the dominant leader. We are the only species that follows an unstable leader. "

   Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer, in an interview in National Geographic Magazine
   

1. 
   mickman | Dec 09, 2006 08:47pm | #11

   Thanks for the replies everyone. To clarify a couple of things:The tester is one of those inexpensive neon testers with one black probe and one red probe; as surmised, I didn't mean to suggest I literally connect the neutral to ground what I meant to convey is that when I connected the two wires with the tester it showed voltage. The bedroom outlet is installed with the ground plug up and has a 14/2 in from the left side that was plugged in the back- these show no power now. On the right side there's also a 14/2 coming in that was also plugged in the back side. Like I said, I turned the circuit off but when I sniped the wires off in the back the neutral on the right side sparked! The tester showed voltage when touched to the ground wire. House is 20 year old colonial.Still not sure what this means- is the consensus a "shared neutral"? I did a search here last night and understand this a bit more but would appreciate any advise from the more experienced here. Thanks again everyone.

1. 
   dovetail97128 | Dec 09, 2006 09:06pm | #12

   Have you checked for the "split outlet " as Mr. T suggested?

2. 
   BillHartmann | Dec 09, 2006 11:41pm | #14

   The neon testers can give misleading indications.I can take one and put one end in the hot and hold the other end in my hand and get it to light.BUT, only one of the wires in bulb will light and it will be never dim compared to "normal" where it is connected between an active hot and neutral.Also they won't light at all below about 50 volts or so."The bedroom outlet is installed with the ground plug up and has a 14/2 in from the left side that was plugged in the back- these show no power now."First look at the screws on the side (if it has them). Even if not you can follow the size of the blades.The Wider blade is the neutral connect and the screw terminal will be Silver colored. The narrow blade is the hot side and the screw will be brass or dark colored. In some cases you will need a strong light to tell the difference. But in any case the wide side is neutral and the narrow one hot.Now with the ground up the Right side is neutral and the left side is hot.With that orientation; a duplex receptacle, mounted vertically, and with the ground pin up - then NO CABLE SHOULD BE CONNECTED LEFT AND RIGHT.One cable is mounted on the TOP with black on the left (facing the face of the receptacle) and white on the right. Likewise a 2nd cable can be connected on the bottom.If you have a cable on the left and another on the right the whole thing is seriously misswired and you need to get an electricain in immediately. It is just too screwed up to figure it out.Also look on the old receptacle to see if the brass link on either the hot or neutral side is broken.A multiwire circuit has 2 hots (black and red) a neutral (white) and a ground wire (bare or green). The two hots are to be connected to breakers are different legs in panel. Thus between the hots you have 240 and the neutral only carries any difference in current. A two pole breaker (one that one handle turns of both or two handles with a "tie" between them. In any case it will be double wide) if a device (receptacle has both hots on it. But many think that it is good practice to install 2 pole breakers on all multi-wire circuits. In general most electrics don't like to install them in residential applications. And even when they do it is limited to places like kitches where more than one circuit is needed in an area.But some will use them whenever possible to save a little on wire.But since you have 2 wire cables then it can't be a multiple wire circuit unless very seriously miss wired and using black and white as the 2 hot and the ground wire as a neutral.One way that it might have been wired and legal, but confusing would be for one circuit to feeds 1/2 the receptacle and this is end of run. And different circuit feeds a switch which inturn feeds the other 1/2. In that case BOTH THE HOT AND NEUTRAL tabs on the side should be broken. But this is a very rare combination. In most cases with a siwtched receptacle both halves are on the same circuit.Also it is possible that some box with two different circuits the neutrals where all tied together. This could well happen in a multi-gain box or in another receptacle that has both a hot half and switched half as I described above.There can be more serious problems where at some place in the system an other wire was needed. It could be from a wire in a cable being cut or shorted to a circuit was added/modified and hot was stolen from one circuit and neutral from this one.If you have access to an meter get an extension cord and plug it into a grounded receptacle that is nearest to the panel. Hopefully one mounted directly on the panel. That has the less probability of being messed up.Then take the other end of the extension cord and measure (to the ground pin of the extension cord) the two hots, the two neutrals, and the 2 ground wires..
   .
   Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.