Are there any restrictions (code or practical) on the spacing of water heaters from the breaker box? The spacing of the utility room in my shop will require that I put a gas fired water heater about 2 feet away from the box….or else I’ll have to put the water heater in another location (i.e., a different room). –Ken
Does drilling new screws into the roof rafters compromise the strength of the roof?
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Plumber here not a "Sparky" but I'm told, 3' depth x 3' wide.
Fig e5.
http://www.codecheck.com/pg25_26electrical.html#breakerpanels
Note that shows a meter/panel combination. But the numbers hold for an inside panel.
The panel does not need to be centered in teh 30" space.
Edited 1/5/2006 9:59 am by BillHartmann
Bill:
Is this a reference to a code page?
Thanks. --Ken
Sorry, I forgot to post the link.http://www.codecheck.com/pg25_26electrical.html#breakerpanelsIt is from Codecheck. A series of books that Taunton publishes that summarize the codes.
NEC 2002 Art110.26 A-1, 2 & 3
Hey BillH, you still haven't posted your profile, what is your experience in the trades???
My training is in electrical engineering. But most of my work has been with electronics and software for control systems.My "electrican" experience has been from DIY work and now handyman work.
I may need to start this in a new post, but I'll give it a shot here.
Inspector comes by on Friday for my initial consultation. No problems on the spacing issues and water heater.
He looks around at my utility room (new shop construction) and says "where's the concrete encased electrode?" News to me, of course..... I say I didn't know about it, and what ever happened to copper ground rods, anyway....he says they haven't used them "for years."
Bottom line is I didn't install one in the foundation. Everything backfilled long ago.
Inspector says I need one and to dig out down to the foundation and run one and cover it with 2 inches of concrete......also suggests I go get a copy of the 2005 code.
I need to get the code anyhow, so tonight went flipping through it and read section 220.50 (I think that's right) on grounding....and it sure seems to say that if it is available I have to use it, and the exception seems to say that if it isn't, I don't have to break into the concrete footer to install it.....I can use the alternate methods including ground rods....
Am I just dead wrong in reading the code? It sure seems to me at this stage that excavating back down and running 20 feet of wire in 2 inches of concrete isn't that great of a ground...
--Ken
I don't know a whole lot about this.But for the lurkers he is talking about a Ufer ground.Now it depends on the details what version of the code that has been adopted (and when in relation to when the building permit was issued). And also any local admendments. Now I don't have a copy of either the 2002 or 2005.But from what I have seen I THINK that the 2002 required the Ufer and the 2005 was modify to only require it if available.But the statement that ground rods have not been used for years does not make sense. Although that might have been a local rule that was in effect earlier.I think that I would try to ask for a variance or vaver.
That's exactly the way I read the new code...and that's the one applicable in our jurisdiction.
The 2005 Code was updated to say that all grounding electrodes that are present at each building or structure shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. This includes any metal underground water pipes, the metal frame of the building if one exists, a concrete encased electrode (or Ufer ground, as Bill said above - basically it is ####connection to the rebar in the footing), a ground ring if one exists, any rod or pipe electrodes (the regular old ground rod you are familiar with), and a plate ground if one exists. This is in article 250.50 of the 2005 book.There is an exception that says concrete encased electrodes of existing buildings shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete. However, if this is a new building it seems like you're in kind of a tough spot...the Ufer ground connection should have been put in when the footing was poured, but now that it's already in place it will be a pain to go back and make the connection.One thing that you could do is check to see when the 2005 NEC was adopted in your state...every state is different; some adopted it right away, some waited a while, and others haven't adopted it yet.Edited to add: I just looked at the Idaho state website at http://dbs.idaho.gov/electrical/nec.html, and unless they haven't updated their website it appears they are still operating under the 2002 edition of the NEC. The 2002 edition said "if available on the premises at each building or structure served, each (grounding electrode) shall be bonded together to form the grounding system."In this case it would seem the Ufer ground is "not available", but in the end it will depend on what the local inspector says he's going to accept.
Edited 1/9/2006 9:54 am ET by Stuart
City of Boise says it adopted the 2005 NEC as of January 1, 2005:
http://www.cityofboise.org/pds/Building/index.aspx?id=current_codes
--Ken
hey bill what is a ufer
berg
It's fer spelling fck correctly.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
My understanding is that it's the generic name (ufer) for a concrete encased electrode-- after the EE who delveloped the system-- Ain't sure about that last part.
The Ufer ground was invented by Herbert Ufer. It's basically a method of using the rebar in the concrete footers of the building as the grounding electrode for the electrical service. A google search turns up a couple explanations.
http://www.sonoma-county.org/prmd/docs/techbulletin/ufergnd.htm
http://www.scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
The inspector's being awfully strict. His proposed solution doesn't meet the strict letter of the 2005 code either, since it doesn't connect to the existing rebar that's already "present".
I'd see ifhe'd accept something a bit easier to install, such as a ground ring, but almost as good as the Ufer.
The sticky part here is what is an "existing" structure for purposes of the code. The building doesn't have an "occupancy permit" yet since it is still under construction, but it is sure as heck "existing" in the sense that the foundation, rebar, etc. is in and long since backfilled.
I had an electrition stop by and his opinion was I wasn't going to win this argument, and to just go ahead and dig in the new Ufer.....so that's probably what I'm going to do. I may have other arguments with him on the underground data cabling that he's objecting to, but I suppose I'd rather be safe than sorry with the main ground wire..........
Thanks. That's very helpful. --Ken
The clear working space in front of the panel needs to be 30 inches wide by 36 inches deep by 6 1/2 feet high, so as long as the water heater doesn't infringe on that space you should be okay. Also, make sure the water pipes to and from the heater don't pass above the panel (dripping water and electricity don't mix very well.)
Thanks. Inspector is coming Friday a.m. for a "conference" before I begin work and I didn't want to appear to be a *complete* idiot.....I don't mind being just the ordinary everyday variety..... --Ken