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I graded, put down the sand base, and laid 2+ pallets of pavers in a herringbone pattern. Now I have to break pavers to fit into the holes around the edges. The pavers butt up against our curved driveway so there are some irregularly shaped holes. The guy at the rock yard said you just score the paver with a cold chisel, tap tap tap with a mallet or hammer and presto – neat, clean break just where you want it. I tried that: tap, tap, tap, kaplooee. It was broken alright, but it wasn’t pretty. These are the thick pavers. Anyone want to share the secrets with me?
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Lisa L.
Are these stone pavers? Brick? Concrete? They are
all different in terms of cutting.
Bear
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Bear,
They are "Basalite". Do you know what that is? It's more dense than concrete, not as dense as brick, not made of real stone. They are the kind of pavers currently being sold at home centers ie. Home Depot. Thanks.
*Lisabest bet, especially if you have a lot to cut, is to rent a wet saw with diamond blade at the local rent-it place.
*Carp,You know, that's what I have suspected from the start. The guy at the rock yard was just so darned convincing. Now I'm wondering if he has ever done this himself or if he has just watched a master at work. My 2 year old helps me with my DIY projects so I was hoping to avoid using a wet saw (electricity + water + saw blade + 2 year old = trouble) but that may be the only way to do the job right. I just called the local rental yard and they have a "brick saw" just for jobs like this. Thanks.
*yeah lisa. 2 year olds and saw blades make for a dangerous combination. as for electricity and water, the tool itself handles that problem well.keep in mind tho that these saws are messy so point the spray in an appropriate direction. most of these saws have a brake on them and are surprisingly easy to operate as you will find out, good for intricate cuts and nibbling curved cuts. you will like it. After all the hard work you have already done this method will be a real pleasure for the finishing details. because all your cuts can probably be done in an hour or less maybe you can do them while smallfry is napping?
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Hey Lisa. We laid out a walkway and a patio similarly, using pavers. If you don't mind the cut edge being rough -- say they're going to be up against the dirt anyway -- you can split the pavers easily by slowly scoring the upside with a dry masonry blade (a decent metal one is about $20) in a not-too-wimpy circular saw maybe 1/4" deep, then strike sharply with a brick chisel and 3-lb. sledgehammer. It's not hard, it's quick, and I didn't wear out the blade. For better results, score both sides, or even all four sides, to keep the split from migrating one way or the other. Wear goggles.
To break a bunch of the brick-like pavers in half to fill out a herringbone pattern, I just lined up the pavers on a sawhorse, clamped down a 2x4 guide, and sawed through the whole bunch. A decent-looking compromise for irregular shapes was to pack #57 gravel in the gaps.
If you want fancy and clean cuts the wet saw is excellent. For our fancier patio project, our stone supplier offered to cut some pavers at about 50¢ a cut, and their saw ($$$) did a great job -- so it was cheapest for our 20-odd cuts and I didn't have to lug home a wet saw.
*Common mistake in scoring and breaking anything is tapping too much when it needs a good whack. A few solid whacks will do a better job of a clean break than repeatedly tapping away at the blocks.Hit it with your purse!!Pete Draganic
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Andrew - Aha! Now that makes sense. If the paver was scored that deeply and a chisel/hammer were used I can understand how the paver would break along the score. Thank you for clearing that up.
I just went out and approximated the cuts I'll be making - about 75. (It's a 12 x 24 pad and the curved edge makes more cuts than if it was straight.) So for this part of the project I think pre-marking the pavers, putting tot down for a nap, and then cutting them all at once would be fast and fairly economical.
But the next phase is a straight path about 3 feet wide and maybe 20 feet long. In that phase I would like to try your circular saw method, as all the cuts will be straight and there won't be as many. What kind of material were you cutting? Did you wear a respirator? There are warning labels all over the pallet wrappings saying this Basalt stuff is a carcinogen if inhaled. I'd like to outlive my paver project. :-)
Thanks for your help.
*Pete,LOL!!! No one has ever accused me of being too.....delicate....before. Thank you. I shelved my purse years ago; do you think my diaper bag will do the trick?
*Backing up a bit, I'm wondering where you live and what sort of basework you did under the sand. I am a paving stone contractor, and always use at least 5-6" of tamped crushed stone under 1" of sand for patios and walks; 10-12" for driveways. If you are in a warm climate, you might get away with just a sand bed, but not in the North. Scoring and breaking the pavers is possible, but for a professional look and a lot less aggravation, rent the saw as advised. I cut dry w/ Stihl hand held cut-off saws w/ 12" diamond blades, but a stationary wetsaw requires less experience and is easier to control. I like the Stihls for portability, and they don't require a 20 amp outlet to run. Good luck finishing your project!
*Bearmon,We live just outside of Sacramento, California. We are not a "cold weather" area. In December the temps may drop into the high 20's at night for a week or two, but that's about it. The ground here is very dense - lots of clay. I'm laying the pavers over about 3" of sand. Do you think it will last a while that way? I do expect some buckling eventually because the area is under some huge old ash trees. But I'd rather fix the pavers every 5 years than take out the trees.Since you have a lot of experience with this, can I ask another question? What do you border the pavers with so they don't move? I was going to use pressure treated lumber and stakes. But I have some very long pieces of old 2 x 4 (full 2" x 4") redwood from a fence I dismantled. It is not warped, and I already own it. Do you think this would be a bad idea?
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The pavers were basically what you have. I forogot, I wore one of the 2-strap dust masks. Concrete dust in general is a health hazard, though more so if you work with it all the time.
I doubt wood will last long buried. Even pt eventually fails. We used a 10' plastic edging (Pave-Edge) that you set in the ground with spikes. Turf will grow right over it, providing an invisible edge. I noticed the other day that our county (Arlington, VA) uses the same stuff.
I did wonder about your base, but since everything is already on the ground you're best off just letting things evolve. In the future, 6" of 21A gravel compacted, plus 1" of sand will provide better drainage & prevent mossy things from growing. Under all this, put heavy-duty landscape fabric to prevent soil infiltration. This is the heavy-duty approach, meant to protect the drainage and discourages weeds, even let you park a car on the pavers occasionally without cracking them. My neighbors are perfectly happy with their bricks laid on the clay earth, and you're nice to be kind to your trees.
Our 2-year-old insisted on helping with transporting buckets of the dry fill sand at the end. (Pictures below.) He/she doesn't have to take a nap (the saw makes a lot of noise anyway) -- but surely you have a spouse/neighbor/relative/friend or other human distraction available?
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Lisa, you can probably use a wooden border in your area, if that is the look you want. Here, anything like that will float up with the frost, then sand migrates under the piece, leaving the pavers low and the wood high, making a nice trip hazard. Years ago we edged a patio w/ 4x6 treated, drilled and drove 30" long 1/2" rebar at an angle inward (toward each other) and all the pieces raised about an inch over the first winter. Haven't done it since.
I
'b have
used 6x6 treated timbers as step risers or to create a raised patio, entranceway, etc., and they hold up well if at least two courses are spiked together w/ 10" spikes.
But I digress. What I most typically use to border the pavers is more gravel. We run our base material larger than the finished surface so even the last brick is on something solid. After the cuts are made, we bevel 1" crusher run up against the edge bricks and tamp. Then we run the tamper right on the surface after it has been swept clean. (Do not do this with clay pavers.) We then sweep fine mason sand into the cracks. The tamped gravel border can be topdressed with topsoil and becomes lawn or planting bed as desired.
I usually run a soldier course with a herringbone pattern to set it off and give it a finished look, and I like the look of grass right up to the pavers.
My paver supplier also sells a couple different plastic or aluminum edge retainers that you spike into the ground and then topdress, but in 15 years of doing this I've only used them twice (customer insistance) because they are expensive, and, I feel, unnecessary. If tamped well, the gravel works just fine.
Your project should last ok, especially if the drainage has been addressed. Whenever I walk onto a new site, I am right away looking to see where I can lose the run-off. I always pitch the surface at least 1" in 10 feet, and prefer a little more, like 1" in 8'. Tree roots can be a problem, but it is possible to deal with that and repair the area without looking like it was repaired, which is the beauty of pavers.
*Well it looks like I did one thing right anyway - this area is graded to drain! It probably has a rise of 5" in its 24 feet length, and it drains onto the new driveway which in turn drains right into the street.I can see I have some thinking to do about how to edge this area. I didn't realize there were so many alternatives, but then that's why I came here to find out. You have very helpful.Andrew - I didn't get your picture. Can you repost it? Here's a picture of my project, with my little helper, when I was about half way done.Bearmon - From the sound of it the walks, patios and driveways you install will still be there in 100 years! We need more craftsmen like you.
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Our scanner was off in la-la land last night and I didn't feel like arguing with it. The referenced pictures (including a glimpse of the patio):
View Image
View Image
We probably broke child labor laws, but Julian has to earn his keep! I actually FTP'd the files with him sitting in my lap trying to help, one of those parental talents.
Incidentally, the patio began as a drainage project. The section of the yard flooded, was always muddy, and couldn't grow grass. Now heavy rain runs off the surface of the pavers nicely, and the gravel bed acts as a dry well. I graded the bottom of the pit to carry water away from the house, and the top to direct it towards the driveway. The result is super -- the patio is free of standing water except in the midst of a thunderstorm.
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Andrew,
Thanks for posting the pics - he's a doll! You can never train 'em too young. Sounds like your paver area is a real improvement to your yard.
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One more helpful hint. Set the paver you're about to wack with a masons chisel and 4 lb. jack (a short handled heavy hammer), in a base of sand. Contain the sand with a sack or frame. The sand absorbs the shock, helping the crack to form at the point of impact only.
David
*Andrew, peer pressure...maybe beer pressure? Here are a few from my summer (and into fall) project. Upper level is 48' x 21', raised with a 2' retaining wall above the lower level which is 35' x 7'. Poured concrete footing, 9" stonedust base, bluestone for the "icing". Plenty of 4" perforated pipe under the patio for both drainage and tree-root CPR. First time we ever tried this, we're pretty happy with the results. My son was thrilled, he wanted me to take his pic as he was the first one to ever set foot on the stairs.We're skeptical the tree will survive. It did heal itself from some excavator damage. This summer we'll be putting a pergola over half the patio.110 pound bride vs 40 tons of stonedust, 22KBCompacted Base, 24KBMy Son on the Stairs, 21KBFinito Projecto, 25KBLisa, I did all the cutting with a continuous rim diamond blade on my own circular saw. Blade was $49. Cut through the 2" stone "like buddah". You can rent saws and blades at a rent-all, may be worth it for just a few cuts if the mallet doesn't work to your satisfaction. They charge blade wear by the thousandth-of-an-inch usage. I did both "through" cuts and also scored the line about half the thickness of the stone. I used through cuts if edge appearance was a factor.Best of luck with your project. Both the construction and end-use will keep you out in the fresh air.
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That's huge, Mongo. Beautiful!
*Nice job, Mongo! I'm gonna havta get a scanner!! Biggest job I've done was 11,000 sq. ft. around the front and one side of a new building at a local ski area. The entire thing is heated for snow-melt (2 miles of tubing in the sand under the pavers), so they don't have to shovel the thing off. About 5,000 of that is on the roof over the new rental shop. My first brick roof!!
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11,000 sq ft!! WOW!
WOW!
Just thinking about it is making the discs in my lower back shudder. That's huge.
*Beautiful, Mongo. Your "project" is about the size of our entire lot.Your wife did a terrific job -- she was nice to let you play with the saw. ;-)
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It seemed especially huge on the first morning! Didn't have to do any excavation or gravel base work, though. 2" foam and heat loops were down when we started.
Went through over 200 ton of concrete sand, all moved by wheelbarrow! (We couldn't drive anything over the foam.) Had to set various grades so water would find trench drains and small receivers. Laid 118 bundles of pavers and made about a billion cuts. I estimate we went through 50,000 bricks.
I've since added about 4500 additional sq.ft. elsewhere on the premises, and expect to do more. Obviously, a very good client!
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.. and a very satisfied client too!
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David - Now there is something I didn't do - I did my whacking on a piece of newspaper over concrete. The paver was bouncing around - next time I'll put the paver in sand. 4 lb. jack, huh? The diaper bags weighs at least 10, but the weight isn't so concentrated. Might work.
Mongo - Beautiful job! Puts my little project in perspective. It does look like you had some very good help. (My husband leaves these things to me, but at least he is very encouraging. He gave me a DeWalt 12" sliding compound miter saw for Christmas.) I love the look of the stone. Very nice. Hope your tree makes it.
Bearmon - Gadzooks, man! You must have seen bricks in your sleep. They heat the patio to keep the snow off? Wow, that must be a ritzy resort - good folks to keep happy.
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Take a look at Hometime for some tips.
A baby sledge (and I don't mean using a baby) is inexpensive and nice to have around for whacking things. Your spouse is nice! I drop brazen hints about tools and such; she just laughs.
Mongo, this would be a good time to have a tree pro visit and administer some first aid, like injecting nutrients & growth accelerators deep into the soil. Maybe the tree could use a maintenance pruning too.
*We had an arborist come out during the planning stages. We were considering dropping the tree, but it gives wonderful shade in the summer. He gave us the thumbs-up to keep it, so it stands. We did place feeder pipes and used them when the project was done.Fingers crossed...
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I graded, put down the sand base, and laid 2+ pallets of pavers in a herringbone pattern. Now I have to break pavers to fit into the holes around the edges. The pavers butt up against our curved driveway so there are some irregularly shaped holes. The guy at the rock yard said you just score the paver with a cold chisel, tap tap tap with a mallet or hammer and presto - neat, clean break just where you want it. I tried that: tap, tap, tap, kaplooee. It was broken alright, but it wasn't pretty. These are the thick pavers. Anyone want to share the secrets with me?