We purchased a small farm with a burnt shell of a house. The stone foundation was built in the ’60s and seems well built. The house burnt 3 years ago. Any chance that the brick veneer can be used as it stands, possibly framing the wall with the veneer in place? All the mortar is intact and brick walls look mostly solid. Thanks.
Dan
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Replies
hey rez... help.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
SAVE THAT WHITE GUTTER!!!!
The crack is concerning - I would suggest at least fixing that. The location, size, and shape of the crack suggest a broken footer.
I don't see any reason why you could not just repace the framing. You would need to find a way to attach the veneer to the framing (i.e. perform the function of the brick ties) and would need to do the sheathing first, but those seem like solvable problems.
Thanks for your reply. What do you mean about doing the sheathing first?
Dan
Oh, foam?
Think i'd have problems with the stability of the wall when I tear out the old studs?
I would drill holes and epoxy wire ties into them. Then frame and sheeth the wall in scetions on the floor, drill holes through the sheething to pull the wire ties through.
Another option, if the footings can handle it, is to build a 4" thick block wall inside the brick, adding ties as you go along. Then just fur it rather than framing.
.... just some thoughts.--------------------------------------------------------
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Another option, if the footings can handle it, is to build a 4" thick block wall inside the brick, adding ties as you go along. Then just fur it rather than framing.
I like that idea. Might even be quicker and easier than framing.
This would be an ideal application for surface bonded block, but it would be hard to get to the other side. Maybe you could bond the outside (brick side) face as you went, then bond the inside face when the wall was up.
What do you mean about doing the sheathing first?
The normal construction process would be to frame, install structural sheathing at least at the corners (and preferably the whole wall), fill in with foam sheathing if only the corners are structural, wrap with house wrap or tar paper, then do the brick veneer, installing brick ties as you go.
If it were me, I think I would frame and sheath the walls on the floor, and install tar paper or wrap with a lot of overlap before lifting the walls into place, and try to wrap and overlap the seams as I went. I think I might double up the studs at the edges of the wall sections and caulk them. After that was done, I would install the second top plate to help strengthen the walls.
Then I would drill holes through the mortar, screw bolts into the framing, and pack mortar around the head of the bolt so it would act as a brick tie.
Having said all that, I've never done this before, so those are just ideas that come to mind. Hopefully someone who has actually tried this will be along to share their specific experience.
that crack on the corner loks like it was there before the fire,looks to me that the foundation has had a repair below it????
i would think framing could be tricky due to needing the ties to anchor to the wall then sheeting it before the wall is studed. what about a 2 wall system. frame the first wall in 2x4's sheeted with foam,stand it up and poke the ties through the foam to anchor. then sheet it in osb on inside then stand another 2x wall up to finish on the inside.
looks like a fun deal,lots of work but fun. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
that crack on the corner loks like it was there before the fire,looks to me that the foundation has had a repair below it????
I see what you mean, but it's tough to tell from that photo.
The key is whether the foundation is stable or still moving. If it's still moving, it should be fixed before rebuilding. The best way that I know to tell if it is still moving is to accurately record the width of the crack every few weeks for a year. Often movement is seasonal, and may or may not be related to rain and surface moisture. (I live in a clay/expansive soil area, and this kind of damage is common).
Do you have any photos from the inside?
I'm wondering if this was a wood frame house, or an actual brick (multi-wythe) house.
If it was a veneer over wood framing, you'd see the dozens of galvainzed brick ties dangling from the back of the wall from inbetween the mortar joints.
If there is smooth-faced brick (not "lined" like the face brick on the outside) on the inside, then there are several options.
I think it could be saved, but I bet it would be more cost effective to knock it down.
You are stuck with matching the existing openings, and by the time you figure out how to tie new framing to it, flash in windows with the veneer in the way, clean up the soot, encapsulate the smoke damage, etc.... knock it down , bricks aint that expensive.
Brick vaneer starts around $7 a sq ft (around here anyway) and it looks like there are quite a few sq ft on that house. I just don't see how one could get the vaneer properly tied to a new frame. I don't know, maybe just blow off attaching the vaneer to the frame?
Really though, my thought is that it ain't too purdy what with the stone foundation and the brick above, and it would never look much better than it does now.... Sorry, but that's some pretty ulgy brick too... Personally, I'd knock down the veneer and see if the foundation could be fixed and re-used.
To me, the foundation stonework is the real treasure. Knock it down to that level and build up from there. With a better matching brick. Although that brick has character, it's a different character than the stonework.
That also gives you the better option of building a bigger house.
While I agree with Pete and Jay about knocking down the veneer to the foundation and starting over, I just did something similar on a smaller scale.
On mine the fire was contained to 1 bedroom, attic and roof. I replaced or sistered all damaged studs and plates on the 2 exterior walls. (corner BR)
Then I retied all the brick ties into the framing (no ext. sheathing)
Next I used closed cell foam sprayed directly to the bricks and aprox. 1/2 of the stud cavity to seal and tie everything together. I also used metal strapping on the interior for shear.
I had the underside of the roof sprayed at the same time to make it a conditioned space.
One other tip for removing soot is a product called AWESOME. This is the ONLY product that I found that truly worked for brick, masonry and painted metal--and it's cheap $5-$7 a gallon. (from the dollar store)
Good Luck
ps. Those cracks above the windows on the gable end look serious also, I would be concerned about the fire affecting the mortar strength--- Don't know anything about that myself.
Thanks for the advice. Overall opinion seems to be that its doable but probably not worth it. I agree with you guys about the look of the brick.
My story is that I'm extended just about as far as I can be money-wise in buying the 30 acres. This foundation is right on the road and I would much rather be further up into the property. But, the water (spring house), electric and septic are at the foundation site. So, the basic plan is to build onto the existing foundation on the cheap, move in, and build a small house up higher on the property within a couple years.
So in the end, I'll end up with a house in the woods and a workshop down by the road.
I am concerned about the integrity of the foundation. Here are a couple more foundation pictures
i gotta say with those other pics with more cracks it would start having me concerned about my investment in this as a house. no mention of the floor joist,but if they have been open for 3yrs they have to be pretty well shot also.
so what your saving is a fondation that has some pretty bad cracks in it,a brick veneer that is at best a wash in it's value to hassle factor,water, electric and septic.
i think i would do one of 2 things 1. make me a shop building out of it now with a bath and small kitchen,no floor coverings etc. live there and start saving for the new house or#2 bite the bullet and build where you want,run the water line to the new house [1000'-1500'?] spend the money on new electric and septic. what are going to do when you rebuild this place and after about a month the septic finally fills back up and it's shot? besides cuss alot. still looks like fun ,but as my name implies,i know i would be overbudget on this deal.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Thanks for your reply Larry. I think your option #2 would be the best bet in the long run but I don't have the money, I had to scramble big time to get the loan for the property. So, #1 it is. Maybe my original question should have been something along the lines of "here are some pictures of what I'm working with, whats the most efficient way to turn it into a shop that I can live in for a few years." Any thoughts on that?
Dan
You guys are way too fast with these replys. Does this foundation seem savable? I've never done foundation work. If the foundation is moving do I need to excavate and shore up the footer?
Thanks
Dan
Dgor,
Your foundation may be compromised from the heat if it's composed primarily of granite.
The extreme heat from a fire really does a number on granite foundation stones-basically fries them causing them to lose their strength. Try tapping them with a hammer to see if they crumble easily.
If in doubt ask a competent mason to look before you invest time and money to build upon it.
Good luck. Walter
If the foundation is moving do I need to excavate and shore up
The issue is what caused the problem? If it's really just the downspount dumping water on the foundation, you can probably excavate and jack up the footer, underpin it, and reroute the downspout. If it's expansive soil, though, it will just break again. In that case, the fix is pins down to the bedrock.
One way to assess this is to get the soil survey for your area, which is generally available for free to homeowners at the local geotech office. Your library may have a copy as well. Generally the soil surveys are more detailed than you might think, often down to tens of feet.
You can't rely on it absolutely, but it will give you a starting point. If there is no expansive soil within 10 miles of your site, you are probably OK. If the whole area is expansive soil, pins or piers are the answer.
Do you know if the damages ocurred prior to the fire? If a lot of water was dumped on the fire in the winter, that could possibly cause the damage fairly quickly.
well first of all i think it would be one kick butt shop,brick with a basement ,man could i pack rat a deal like that.
if you want to lean toward a shop that acts as temp living,i would first get it built as a shop.then nice simple bath with just a shower stall,backed up to the wet wall about 8' of kitchen cabinets. with a nice clean living area and 1 bedroom. all the while thinking about where i might want some walls in the shop. what about hvac and air? i'd probably be thinking a forced air horizonal with a central air and very simple duct work.
back to the brick looks like to me i see some ties hanging on the brick.so you need to get them back to something solid to hold them. i've got this idea if i can convey it. take a 2x4 full ht of wall,pl glue it and sit it against the wall flat ways and bend the ties over and nail them .do this all around not worring about if they are 12"/16"24" centers what ever. once you have those up build you the walls on the floor deck,sheeted 3/4 ply and tyveked,stand them up and then run screws to the 2x furring strips right thru the 3/4 ply. sounds like a plan of course i'm the guy that has a thread running right now on rafter ties that i screwed up ....lol larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I have seen plenty of cracked stone foundations, but the cracks normally follow the mortor joints. Yours has lots of fractured stones.. what happened to this place? A bomb go off?
97325.22 in reply to 97325.19
I have seen plenty of cracked stone foundations, but the cracks normally follow the mortor joints. Yours has lots of fractured stones.. what happened to this place? A bomb go off?
The ashes of the man who built the house were on the mantle when the house burned. His urn wasn't recovered after the fire. Maybe he doesn't want anybody living in his house.
dgorman...
this train seems to be driven by budget..
the house is in the wrong location
the foundation shows failure.. and it may be getting worse
the brick veneer may be stable, might be stabilized but it is a major constraint... you have to rebuild the exterior to what is there...
you are going to spend so much time & effort trying to work around everything and in the end it is not even what you want
does local govt allow a trailer on the lot ?
if not , can you get a temporary permit for a trailer ?
don't waste your resources on this pig in a poke...
invest in your dreams , not in this worthless structure
keep your eye on the prize... the 30 acres
bulldoze the shell before the local govt forces your hand..... but first make sure you are not losing any grandfather rights
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/21/2007 7:29 am ET by MikeSmith
What Mike Smith said. But I think I'd still try to save the foundation, if it's savable, if you want a workshop there someday.
You gotta have your priorities staight, and workshop always comes before common sense in my book. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
You gotta have your priorities staight, and workshop always comes before common sense in my book. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I have a brother Mike who also lives in Pittsburgh. Just talked his wife into them moving to a tiny, junky house - but with a huge block garage/shop. Something about wanting to build boats. Makes no sense, but I like it.
Dan
I think it must have something to do with the water here.
MUST . . . HAVE . . . SHOP!
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I have seen plenty of cracked stone foundations, but the cracks normally follow the mortor
Cracks in the block or stone are characteristic of a broken footer.
Based on these additional photos, I wouldn't mess with it. The OP is looking at $15K or more in foundation repairs - and in a lot of places, you could dig a new foundation, pour a footer, and build a new block wall for that.
At this point, I agree that rebuilding it is not economically feasible.
I think the foundation cracking is due to lack of proper footings and a bit of unstable soil conditions. I would look into one of these types of companys to deal with that.http://www.valentinecorp.com/perma.htmlhttp://www.solidearthtech.com/
A good thought, but my two cents is the heat of the fire plus the water fighting it cracked the foundation.
A poor footing would have cracked along the mortar joints - not every stone. Similar to what you see in brick walls that are cracked.
I disagree but ultimatly he should have a soil expert come in to take a look.
I'm going with Slateman's opinion also...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=97325.29
But hey, it could be both.
Edited 11/25/2007 6:48 pm ET by peteshlagor
Thanks guys
I'll get a soil engineer.
Dan
>> I'll get a soil engineer. <<
You can do some preliminary soil investigation yourself. Dig a hole next to a bad spot in the foundation to whatever the frost line depth is for your area. In my area it's only a foot so it'e easy. Then take some kind of probe rod and see if you can push it in the ground. I've got one that looks something like this: http://www.tandttools.com/Smart%20Stick.htm but for a one or 2 time use you can make one out of a piece of rebar and maybe a 1 foot 2x4 for a handle. 5/8 rebar might work a little better than 1/2" as 1/2" bends too easily. You want to grind a nose on the rebar but not actually make it sharp. If you can push the rod easily into the ground more than a few inches you may likely have a soil problem. In your instance, you can probably just write off that foundation and save the price of a PE and a soils engineer. If the rod won't penetrate the soil there is hope and you might want to get a PE and/or soils engineer to check it out further.
Thanks for the advice Matt. I'll do what you suggest about the soil probe. Whats a PE?
Thanks
Dan
Whats a PE?
"Professional Engineer". In the US, engineers must be licensed to practice. Some states exclude specific tasks and types of engineering (e.g. the so called "industrial exemption" that allows a company to title their unlicensed employees as "engineers" under specific circumstances), but anything affecting public safety or that is considered an "engineering service" requires a license.
Soil engineers are required to be licensed to practice.
Thanks for the info
Dan
>> Next I used closed cell foam sprayed directly to the bricks and aprox. 1/2 of the stud cavity to seal and tie everything together. <<
What kind of foam is it? Open cell or closed cell?
"What kind of foam is it? Open cell or closed cell?"
Dow product......Closed cell.
This belongs in the looney idea bin.
You've bought a nice looking foundation with a pile of used bricks on top.
Ugly bricks at that.
Joe H
Re: the crack...Looking at the first picture, it looks like that corner has moved. Look at the lintel over the door and the left side looks like it has moved. Looks like the downspout has emptied right there in the corner possibly has caused the problem. That fix might be your first task.
With a fire like that my first concern would be if the strength of the brick and mortar were compromised.My next concern would then be getting somebody seriously injured during the rebuild(seems like those walls can't be all that stable.)...thus the reason for brick ties which can't be installed until the framing is being placed. I assume that the floor joist system is gone and will need to be replaced........I don't think I would want to be down in that hole looking up at the brick wall and working at the same time.Then theres insurance concerns .......can you get coverage after you build since you didn't replace the veneer?You might do well to get a QUALIFIED Engineer to sign off on some of this before you go much deeper.
Well dgorman, got yer ears full yet?
It might be valuable to you to post more shots of the structure as the interior and other closeups to provide a more detailed view for assessments.
What you are receiving is valuable data from some experienced folks regardless of whatever plan of action you desire to pursue.
Cheers and best to you on this endeavor.
Man, you're not kidding about the great information.
I guess my next step is to get a structural engineer out here to take a look. And while he's at it, he can look at the barn too - but that's another post. Based on what he says, I'll be back with more questions.
Thanks guys for the advice.
A couple more pics...
Dan
we specialize in this type of work and I have to say, I don't think I would touch this due to safety concerns.
the steel beams are bent which really complicates things.
if you are going to try to salvage something, I think the best you can hope for is saving the foundation and maybe the chimney. maybe.
the selective demo of the brick and wall framing is going to be tedious, challenging and dangerous.
carpenter in transition
One can see how the heat has delaminated the facing of the stones on the one fireplace. That can't stay.
The foundation cracks cause concern for the reasons Slateman said.
But for a workshop, even I (whom would buy anything and everything new) might give it a shot. By taking it down to the foundation top and fooling around with it after that. And "fooling" is the appropraite word.
Not for a house though. It's too far gone.
rez
Your kind of a scavenger, what would you do with this place?
Just curious
I like the idea of saving the place but don't know without an up close and in person look.
Doug
Edited 11/22/2007 6:55 pm ET by DougU
Roar! Sounds a lot like a loaded question!
Well if I had to say something about it I'd guess the buyer got it with the price of the land.
I'm guessing the locality of the house is out in the sticks somewhere and he said he stretched his dollars big just to get the property
then 'So, the basic plan is to build onto the existing foundation on the cheap, move in, and build a small house up higher on the property within a couple years.
So in the end, I'll end up with a house in the woods and a workshop down by the road.'
I'm sure by couple he meant few and his game plan is solid but pertinent data isn't presented as to codes and how the authorities would look on the matter.
Some places will slap you on the back calling you a good ol' boy for pumping life into old so and so's place and other localities would say we rule you and pay us for living so that has much to do with an attempt of this nature.
But Hellyes it's doable! It'll end up being a workshop if according to plan, (snicker snicker minor point of levity here, please bear with me. snorK*),
Walter's concern on the foundation should be noted and we have no idea of dgorman's skills as to how much he can do without hiring but if he's thinking workshop that's an inkling of capability.
But when one look's at the quality of what sells as an average osb/vinyl intro house on a lot, complete with batt insulation on slab with pvc plumbing running the neighborhood of 100 grand final costs and then look again at what it really is,
sh!d man, dgorman, go for it. Check those few basic things and hit the ground running.
Most guys posting here are experienced pros, seen a lot and demand quality in their involvements so one can understand their perspective of tearing down cause if you are going to do something do it right.
but we don't know what dgorman expects or how he goes about things.
What Larry said ' i think i would do one of 2 things 1. make me a shop building out of it now with a bath and small kitchen,no floor coverings etc. live there and start saving for the new house'
I'm thinking of those poor suckers that bought into a new development outside of Tulsa that was built over a foot of dirt covering an old city landfill.
A slab boat floating on black trashbag debris and now the developer is long gone. Dgorman can do much better for much less and have a nice workshop to build his real home with.
Strengthen what remains if you don't have the bucks to hire it done building new.
that's my story and I'm sticking to it
a single wythe veneer wall has no strength even before the mortar has been toasted in a fire of this magnitude
take what's left of the stud walls out and you can push it over with one hand
maybe you can preserve the shell... maybe.... but i doubt it
and to what end ?
if he's short on cash .. which he says he is.. then his primary asset is time and elbow grease
those assets are better spent on building something new rather than trying to save a pig-in-a-pokeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ya, if the brick is shaky then it's time for it to come down, for sure.
One thing nice about a pig in a poke tho' is it can give you sausage with yer pancakes until you can come up with the steakn' eggs.
be egged
Yeah rez, you're right. Bought the land and the foundation was a bonus(liability?). Out in the boonies and mortgaged to the max.
Talked to a couple neighbors about local code enforcement. Seems I can pretty much do (get away with) anything I want. That being said, I don't want to get cracked in the head with a brick wall - can't spare the brain cells. Seriously though, I have a couple brothers who can give me a couple weekends and I don't want to chance them getting hurt.
Walter's concern on the foundation should be noted and we have no idea of dgorman's skills as to how much he can do without hiring but if he's thinking workshop that's an inkling of capability.
Not very skilled in any building specialty, but I can pretty much competently get through anything residential. Unless it involves a backhoe and a gas line. Man, that thing slices through plastic gas line like nothin'.
sh!d man, dgorman, go for it.
those assets are better spent on building something new rather than trying to save a pig-in-a-poke
Thanks for the advice. I'll get an engineer out here and go from there. I'll get back here with that info.
Thanks again
Dan
I'd just pull down the brick if I was rebuilding. Like was said, it's probably ready to fall over. My uncle built a house on the cheap when he was young. He had a basement and just covered it with a flat roof and lived in the basement till he could afford a upstairs. Built it with cash, not credit. Built another house across the road and now his daughter's family lives in the old one.
If you want, the brick could be relaid after you clean it up.
Thanks for your input Mark. I will probably end up pulling down the brick, like you said, with the hopes of using the foundation.
Dan
I'm not a big fan of the brick, I like the color but not the texture/style but I would take it down and save it. Shouldnt be that difficult to do. I bet you can save enough of it to redo three sides. You can always do something creative with the forth side.
Then if you can reuse the fondation your good to go on a living space/future shop. If there was no building codes around you like it sounds like I'd see if I couldnt score a few old buildings to take down for the lumber and put up a shell. All the other stuff can be aquired reasonably cheap if you just keep your eyes and ears open to deals.
Doug
Since rez is falling down on the job...
Welcome to Breaktime! As you've already seen, this place is a goldmine of great people with deep skills and experience, shared freely. It can get a little rough at times - we're not shy about our opinons - but hang in here and you will benefit greatly, and possibly make some new friends. [Hot tip - there's one big annual fest (and some smaller regional get-togethers) where the virtual gets physical. I haven't been able to attend yet, but everyone who has raves.]
Please fill out your profile (upper right in the yellow area) so we know where you are - regional differences in building requirements and practices are substantial and the best advice comes when we know that info.
Looks like a great adventure you're embarking on. Did something similar once myself. Best of luck, and keep us posted on your progress!
Oh yea, different kinds of engineers out there. Structural can help with the general structural integrity, or lack thereof. Soils engineer can help you with foundation stability and stabilization options.