Sorry for the long post. I tried to be brief but provide enough detail. Looking for some ideas / suggestions…<!—-><!—-><!—->
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I recently discovered that the sewer line leading from my house to the municipal sewer main the in street has partially collapsed. It was discovered when I called a plumber to clear the line of a blockage and it was during that cleaning the break was discovered. The plumber says the line is made from sections of 8’ cast iron and that the connection between the first and second section has collapsed (8’ out from foundation). You can actually see the break if you look inside the line from the clean out in the basement. You can see the disconnect and the surrounding soil coming into the line. There is probably at best a 2†half moon shaped opening for waste to clear thru. The house is five years old and the plumber suspects the line has been broken for some time. He thinks it was broken when my concrete walkway was installed. The builder probably used a plate compactor on the soil before pouring the walk and in doing so, broke the pipe which lays 3’ down. <!—-> <!—->
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According to the plumber the repair is pretty straight forward. Dig up the walk, and replace the broken section. I asked him about replacing the entire 20’ line (hub in basement to clean out at the curb) of cast iron with PVC. He said that is what his company installs in new construction however in my situation, gaining access to the first section of cast iron is almost impossible due to the concrete stoop in which the first cast iron section runs underneath. He says my best option is to fix of the broken section only. Understandingly. the plumber is being careful on recommended remedy because he won’t know the true scope of the fix until he digs it up. <!—-> <!—->
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I have two issues I’m looking for some insight on… <!—-><!—->
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My plumber seems very competent in his trade and works for a large reputable company but I’m still looking for suggestions on the “best†fix. Do you have any suggestions on how the new section of pipe should be installed to prevent breakage in the future? The connection will be under a walkway and I’m sure that when the concrete walkway is fixed, the soil may be a need to compacted again. I was thinking of only using a hand tamper, no plate or mechanized compaction allowed in that area. Should any stone material be placed on top of the pipe? Soil condition is heavy clay. <!—-> <!—->
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Finally, I have been in contact with my home owners insurance to see if this is covered event. As expected they are looking for any way out of paying a claim. At first they told me they don’t cover sewer damage caused by lack of maintenance. I argued that this is not a case of lack of maintenance (i.e. tree roots growing into the pipe and causing a break). Then they said they wouldn’t pay because the pipe obviously didn’t meet code because it broke so early in its life. I argued that point and said that I could provide documents showing that pipe was inspected and did meet “code†when installed. Now they are saying that they won’t cover damage caused by the use of defective material. Again, the pipe was inspected before being backfilled and was deemed sufficient by the town inspector both in installation and material quality. (Before we all get into a debate about code, I agree that code doesn’t equal best practice. Better materials could have been put in and obviously better care could have been used to install the pipe, but that’s not my beef with the insurance company). I want to argue that the break could have been caused / exacerbated by frost heave and therefore be considered an “act of nature†like a lightening strike or a tree falling on your house. <!—-> <!—->
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Has anyone had similar experiences with insurance companies? Specifically I’m looking for what circumstances could damage a sewer line and be covered in a home owner’s policy. I know that each policy is unique but I’m just looking for some general ideas on how to deal with these guys. <!—-> <!—->
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As always, all comments / suggestions are much appreciated. <!—-><!—->
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Wingnut<!—-><!—->
Replies
the plate tamp did not break the pipe. it doesnt have enough force. it was proberly broken when the concrete truck drove over it
What is your main concern with your plumber's recommended fix? You'll use a no hub couple from the iron to sch. 40 pvc, that'll accomodate some flex. You can use another if you have an intermediate joint in the pvc instead of pvc glue- again for flex. Put d.g. under the pipe for support.
I'm pretty green, though. I'll be curious to see what someone who knows what they're talking about will say. I've never heard of cast iron breaking from a plate compactor, or a concrete truck either for that matter.
As far as insurance goes, maybe I'm a patsy, but I would never try to make a claim on anything under 10k. Good luck!
k
Edited 4/21/2008 10:45 pm ET by KFC
oops. I sent that to bb. i meant to send it to Mr. nut. sorry bout that.
k
well i think the insurance company is off the hook here,if a earthquake ,or if you could find the cement driver that ran over it maybe ,but probably not,he didn't know it so negalitence is hard to prove.
i can't imagine you have cast clear to the curb,around here they sometimes come out of the house with cast then transition to abs/pvc. but i would dig up whats bad,cut it,fit a pc of pvc and 2 hubs and then maybe throw alittle sand around it and fill. how deep is the pipe? larry
oh and just incase you every hear this we have a triple a baseball team named WINGNUTS!
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Edited 4/21/2008 11:36 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Wing,
Does the cast iron run through a sleeve, i.e larger pipe, as it goes through the foundation?
With expansive soils, the pipe can be broken as it moves with the soil (clay) and the foundation stays put thus 'snapping' the CI.
It really needs good amount of sand set around the pipe in soils such as clay.
Ahhh, insurance co.'s. Talk with your agent (car, home) he/she might provide a way to counter all the double speak your getting from yours.
matt
Edited 4/22/2008 10:34 am ET by matty j
I'd be surprised if a D9 cat could collapse a cast iron pipe burried 3' deep. No, the damage isn't from driving on it, or compacting it.
The damage also isn't something a plumbing inspector would see based on how it failed so it's not enough to claim it was faulty materials.
I'll bet a month of steak dinners the pipe failed when it was improperly backfilled. If the soil under the pipe doesn't support the pipe well, any dirt above will force the pipe down and that's how the brittle cast iron broke.
There also may have been a defect not visible to anyone and everything was done right and it was just bad luck that caused your problem.
Plumbers in general are terrible at compacting properly and I no longer allow them to, but the person backfilling might have been working for the contractor, excavator, landscaper, etc. What happened to you isn't uncommon, not that it makes it right. I'd call the guy who built your house, even if it's out of warrantee and pitch a bitch. He may have some pull with the guys who "touched" the situation and get a reduced rate to make it right if not fixed altogether.
Unfortunately, it's not something that anyone is going to volunteer for since it's been so long and nothing is clear cut--unless the plumbers did the backfilling in which case I'd say it's 100% their doing. The plumbers may provide more of a warantee than the builder out of good will. Probably not if they were low bidder, but maybe if it's a good outfit.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
No way was that pipe broken by plate compactor...three feet is plenty deep enough. I would suggest sch 40 ABS for replacement which will never ever be a problem down the road.
I'm with Don in that my first suspicion would be improper back-fill. If a large rock was placed on the pipe, and then later, maybe the concrete guys used a jumping-jack (not a plate tamp) that could break it. CI is pretty darn tough when it is relatively new though and 3' of cover is pretty darn adequate. It could have had something to do whit the pipe not being properly "bedded" too. Bedding is the process where by the pipe installer insures that compacted soil is installed under the pipe to make sure it is properly supported.
BTW - the only time we put sand around sewer pipes is when the soil is very rocky - and actually we use screenings - not sand. We do have clay, but in is not expansive clay. Here anyway, clay is fine for backfill just so that it is not too rocky.
Regarding your insurance company - all I can say is "typical". My nephew was a claims adjuster for a large ins company and he told us that they were told to always to deny the first claim, and that basically customers had to be very persistent if not obnoxious to collect.
Edited 4/22/2008 7:13 pm ET by Matt
PS - did your home come with a 10 yr structural warranty or similar?
Also, have you contacted the builder. I'd say it is obviously due to a faulty installation weather it was the installation of the sidewalk, pipe, or whatever.
Hey Guys, thanks for all the great replies and advice. An interesting point that was brought up by ALWAYSOVERBUDGET is that the CI might not go all the way out to the curb. It could be just the first section as it goes through the foundation and then maybe transition to ABS or PVC. I'm going to continue to duke it out with the insurance company, but sense the question was raised as to why I'm pursuing it, I'll give more detail. My fist post was getting too long to go into this part of the story.
I have a water softener that drains into the main line, via a PVC trap which is open at the top. The water softener has a discharge hose that was clipped to the end of the drain. When the main line backed up, raw sewage erupted out of that trap. Raw nastiness just got everywhere. No sewage back flowed the soften but the softener was covered with those dam cheese fries I had at the pub the night before. They were nasty looking on the bar top, nasty tasting on the way down, nasty on the way out and very nasty to clean off my basement floor. I didn't think twice about chucking that softener regardless of how much or how little got on it. I also lost a couch and some other household items that were being stored down there while I do some renovations in the rest of the house. So, I'm looking for a little help from the insurance company.
Thanks guys for all the great advice.