Brother is buying a SawStop; or, Being Safe After the Fact.
My brother,was ripping/resawing 3/4 X 3-inch oak had a kick back, and mangled his hand with a table saw for the second time. This time he lost his index finger, the middle finger from just behind the first knuckle, and the tip of his ring finger.
No feather boards, he was using his hand instead. (As Homer would say, “DO!”) He had feather boards that I bought him, but didn’t use them.
No splitter, because he was making the cut in two passes. Not sure of why he was doing that.
When the kickback happened the board ended up 150-feet down the driveway.
His hand that he was using as a feather board slid forward into the blade.
He definitely needs a new table saw, because my sister in law took an engineers hammer to the saw after she got home from the hospital. The top is now in several pieces.
Whole thing could have been prevented if he would have used the safety devices he owns, and proper technique. But, somehow the saw is at fault.
Replies
Jigs,
I love the riving knife on my table saw. With a 12" blade and a 5hp motor it scares me, which is a good thing.
Lots of different push sticksalso.
KK
Just so you know I'm about to go into a rant here.
I'm very sorry he lost some fingers, I'm sure that was VERY traumatic for him, and for his family. I hope he recoveres as best he can.
Otherwise - I AM TICKED OFF!
Just curious if he bitched, pissed, and moaned about that durned feduhral guvment comin and taking his saw and replacing it with a socialist version... or however the people here eloquently state their case against Saw Stop ;). I hope everyone who is writing in to the Tool Blogs and forums complaining about Saw Stop being enforced through regulation will be passing the hat to pay the bill - HA!
How much was his hospital bill? Did he pay cash - or is insurance/Medicare paying for it.
His lost fingers are paid for by every other schmuck in his health insurance pool... and, when his rates go up, mine eventually do too because of how the risk is calculated.
Oh sure, he wouldn't have had the injury if he just had the guards and sawed the correct... I CALL BS! There are enough of these injuries EVERY YEAR costing MILLIONS in insurance. He was a seasoned pro - just like most people here - who chose to use his tool incorrectly - just like most people here.
He got bit, and he didn't have to. We all are paying the bill, and we didn't have to.
Can't say I disagree:
After the last time he tangled with the saw and lost a tiny bit of his index finger, I bought him a copy of Kelly Mehler's, "Table Saw Book", and three different finger boards.
I also gave him the Delta T2 fence that came on my contractor's saw, when I installed the Powermatic version of Biesemeyer fence on my Delta. I had modified that fence by installing a length of 80/20 aluminum t-slot extrusion on the top of it to give a palce to install hold downs and feather boards.
So, he should have the knowledge, and tools to accomplish the job safely. He and I were talking yesterday, now that he is off the worst of the pain pills and semi lucid. He said that he wasn't sure what he could have done differently, other than the feather boards. I had to point out that he could have made the cut in one pass, used a short fence, a splitter. He also could have used his little bandsaw. Admittedly it is just a ten inch band saw, but he was only splitting 3-inch wide stock. He could also have made teh thinner stock by running it through the planer, which would have been perfectly safe, but would have used twice as much wood.
I'm not sure if you are just pee'd that he had an accident the rest of us have to collectively pay for, or are arguing that the SawStop should be required.
I don't think I need the saw stop. I have a very good in depth knowledge of what is and isn't safe. I have proper safety equipment and accessories to make my table saw safe. I think through what I will do, and set up the saw to do it safely.
I also know that many people, my brothers among them, don't really have any understanding of the forces involved, what it takes to counter them, and how to set up gaurds, splitters, featherboards, holddowns, etc. to actually guard against them.
Personally I think the old addage about only raising the blade far enough to barely clear the wood is a recipe for kick back. I've drawn vector diagrams of the forces involved several times, and am convinced that keeping the blade low makes kick back four times as likely. Because the distance to the top of the blade where the nergy for the kick back is so short that when the wood lifts, it is in kcikback instantly. And, the low blade setting means there is far less force exerted by the saw to help keep the work piece on the table.
I think it is one of those things that has been repeated so many times it is now accepted fact. Even though an analysis of the physical forces involved demonstrat that it is wrong.
There is the point that a Saw Stop won't prevent the kickback that throws the workpiece into your gut, rupturing your spleen.
But the stats (such as they are -- it would be good to examine more) are pretty convincing that applying Saw Stop technology would save considerable money (not to mention fingers) if made manditory.
Vector diagrams aside,
My own hunch is that at least 95% of kickbacks can be prevented by the use of a proper riving knife that closely follows the blade; the riving knife simply blocks the back, rising side of the blade teeth where most kickbacks start to get their purchase. An Inca-style riving knife allows both full-through cuts and partial-depth cuts; and of course, the use of a feather board helps.
sounds like a case of can't fix stupid
You right
I love him, but he is mechanically sterile.
Dad used to keep spare hose bibs around because he would cross thread the hose, and hten get the pump pliers and reef down on them until he scarred up the hose bib so bad you couldn't get a new hose to screw on.
" We all are paying the bill,
" We all are paying the bill, and we didn't have to."
Where do you get that from? I pay for all my own injuries
How do you know who paid for his? Did youget a bill in the mail?
Keep in mind that your insurance rates are going up because of his stupidity.
say how!
That specific guy may not be in your health insurance "pool", but, with the thousands of TS accidents that occur, someone else like him surely is. So your insurance is covering someone like him. Hence, your rates will go up due to such accidents.
Your insurance rates aren't high because YOU are stupid, they are high because there are other people in your catagory who ARE stupid. You pay for their stupidity, on the off chance that you get a case of the stupids too.
I don't know where to start. While I'm tempted to say I'm sorry to hear of the loss, my sympathy is greatly reduced by this being a repeat accident. Will his next step be to purchase a 'left handed' model, so he can mangle the other hand?
I don't like the collective thinking behind statements like 'now my premiums will go up.' Such logic gan lead only to slavey - and continuing down that logical wrong turn will never get you back on the right track.
Another poster starts off guessing at percentages. While there's a role for such thinking in design, we can too easily get all wrapped up in the hardware.
There are various approaches to solving these sorts of problems. All have been tried, over time, under many different circumstances. There is no doubt that the approach that offers the best success rate is a combination of personal freedom, personal responsibility, and letting the market work.
If there is a role for government in the mix, our system is founded on such regulation being at the state or local role- rather than the federal level. It's sobering to recall that we somehow became the most modern country in the world without any of the countless federal agancies that burden us today.
One trend I want to rant against is the current fashion in education, where kids are taught 'self esteem,' while being denied actual technical education. They're told, in effect, that they're so smart they need not bother learning anything, they can figure it out. Gone are the shop classes- the last shop class I saw had second year students limited to assembly and hand sanding. I'm encountering engineers who have never even heard of thread tapping.
It's scary.Iit's been a very long time since I have bought a 'complete' tool. Even a hammer is of limited use without something to hold the workpiece in place. With regard to table saws, the saw itself is only a small part of the picture. Most often overlooked is the working space around the table, the additional tables used together with the saw, the fence, the dust collection, and -yes- the guarding. Also, let's not forget the ground on which the saw stands; a wobbly saw isn't very useful.
I'll close with one personal observation: In my (beginning stage) whole-house remodel, I'm finding myself better served making most cuts with something besides a table saw. For cutting panels, appropriate guides and a circular saw, even a saber saw, is proving far more workable than wrestling a sheet of 1-1/8 subfloor about. If I were making furniture, I might need a 'table saw,' but it wouldn't be one of those toys you see on the job site. I expect a lot of folks get into trouble when they try to use the table saw for every task.
when they try to use the table saw for every task.
While this may be true, it certainly isn't in this case. Resawing on a table saw is a usual activity on the job or in the shop. To be honest, so is running the work partially through and then flipping and running the other end through.
Further, blade height. When set too low, you can feel it actually trying to lift the work. But, too high and I feel too much friction (eventhough the teeth are wider than the blade surface). I definitely want the blade higher, but not by too darn much.
Anything can happen, the goal is to limit your exposure or the odds of something happening.
I applaude the availability of the saw stop technology but do cringe at the thought of mandatory implementation.
But keep in mind that it's unlikely that the government will require Saw Stop technology. Rather, the insurance companies will stop providing liability insurance to manufacturers that don't use the technology, and UL will likely deny them a UL listing. In some states it's illegal to sell an electrical device that is not UL listed. The manufactures will "see the light" in short order. (Except that, of course, everything's made in China now, and they'll no doubt fake the technology if they can get away with it.)
Unintended Consequences Burdening the Collective
Replying to nobody in particular:
Since we are looking at the individual problem collectively, bear in mind that when you start adding saw stop technology to the saw pool, the pool of users will face more danger collectively from the remaining non-saw-stop equipped saws in the saw pool.
So, along with adding saw stop technology to new saws, we must ban the use of the old saws. Otherwise the users of the new saws will face an increase of danger from the old saws because of the complacence introduced by the new saws.
Operators switching between the two types of saws might actually increase the injury rate collectively beyond what it was with just the old saws. And collectively, we will all share the burden of that unintended consequence.
How was it put by Heston?
They'll have to pry that tablesaw from my cold dead hands................
still with 10 digits by the way.
You, along with others, are assuming that having Saw-Stop technology installed will result in user complacency toward safety. I've heard this argument ever since the Saw-Stop device was invented, but I just don't buy it. I cannot imagine anyone, facing a whirring 10" saw blade, allowing themselves the carelessness required to rely on the technology when a little care will keep them out of danger. A rational person just isn't going to willfully stick their hand into the blade while thinking, "Oh, its OK, the brake will save me." That'd be like using a boulder to stop one's car while thinking the seat belt will save them.
My argument and analogies exclude the dimwitted who simply can't be taught or relied on to do anything rational. Those folk will find a way to hurt themselves no matter what.
Guards Raising Carelessness
Sapwood,
You say that, a rational person just isn't going to willfully stick their hand into the blade while thinking, "Oh, its OK, the brake will save me."
I would agree with that, but letting ones natural guard down because of relying on a safety device is not necessarily going to be a rational act. More than likely, it would be a sub-conscious act. And in any case, nobody is going to willfully stick their hand into the blade, with or without saw stop. Even with saw stop, the activation will do considerable damage to the saw. And I would not put my finger on a running saw stop blade even as a test, and even if somebody else were paying for the damage.
Nobody intends to put their hand into a running sawblade. They do it as an unintended consequence to some act of carelessness. The risk of losing fingers has got to be somewhat of a deterrent to acts of carelessness. So when you remove that risk, I think that it follows that you remove that deterrent.
Yeah, the "user complacency"
Yeah, the "user complacency" argument against safety features has been trotted out many times, but I'm not aware of any situation where it's been shown to occur in a way that would negate the safety features.
The user complacency that results from a safety device does not occur in a way that negates the safety feature. It occurs in a way that diminishes caution in an operator, and that operator therefore faces an increase in risk when using the same type of machine that is not equipped with the safety device.
If you've looked at a moving blade or bit........
as long as many in the trades, I'd be surprised if the mesmerizing effect didn't takeover your sensibilities at least once in a while.
It's almost that you visualize your fingers going through the blade.
Well, at least it's happened to me.
And which won, the blade or the fingers?
After 40 yrs......
still 10 digits.
But the visual thing is hypnotizing. Almost as if you start to think-what if..........
Been there. A different vision, but I think I know what you mean. When this occurs its time for a break.
sapwood
you bet, time for a complete attitude asjustment.
It's happened a few times and hard to say the cause. Luckily I still remember to snap out of it.
Know a guy in CO who was working 14 hr days on a deadline.
He got into a hypnotic state from repetitive motions and fatigue.
Ran thre fingertips through a joiner. Ran out of board and just kept pushing.
Still have 10, but I had to count once to be sure.
As for the mesmerizing.... I get that way on ledges close to big dropoffs - and oddly being up high and looking UP.
That's good!
You must have 10 toes too.
Yes
I know exactly what you mean. There is something strange about having such a lethal device right there in front of you. It is almost hard to believe. Consciously, I know I don’t intend to touch it, but I have to consider whether, for some reason, I would decide to touch it.
When using a table saw, I think it is wise to refrain from daydreaming as much as possible. It is very easy, especially with repetitive work, to have your mind busily thinking about something totally unrelated to the task at hand. I think it is good to approach a table saw operation with the kind of one-pointed mind that a weight lifter might employ.
That damn consciousness is one tough mutha......
Having worked all these years and read and seen some pretty dangerous things-some have led to bad outcomes-I'm surprised more of us aren't broken, damaged and wore out.
For some reason, they never taught me or my compradres the "downside" to this business. Cripes, it's dangerous just walking around. A few times it was pointed out to me-early on a framer I worked for demanded we pull or bend over anything we took out that had nails sticking through. I've kept that in my safety memory since.
Remodelers do alot of tearout-and there's ample opportunity to scewer yourself w/o laying all those bungi sticks on the work floor.
"Never Back Up" was another one ingrained in me by that framer. That one there has saved me countless times.
But I damn digressed once again.
I don't know where I got it from, but I clean every board I can - even if I KNOW it's next stop is the dumpster... maybe because I'm the one taking it back out of the trailer again at the trash facility.
My safety tip - never yank away from pain until you look at it and figure out how to extricate yourself first.
Yeah, I'm very religious about nails sticking out. They're immediately pulled or bent over, even when it means getting down from the ladder I just tossed the piece down from, etc.
I was doing some work for my parents over the summer, and was cutting something on my dad's "table saw" that was originally my grandpa's...
It was a $99 special, mounted on a steel rack that allowed a plywood table to sit around it.
The table wasn't exactly flush, so your work wouldn't feed through smoothly.
The steel partially blocked the power switch.
The fence lost it's locking handle, so a piece of copper tube was crimped over it.
The best part: The table was of 4 non-locking castor wheels.
That was immediatly thrown in the trash... I'll make him buy a new one when if/when he needs one.
Funny
A few years ago I was back in the states at my parents house and had to do a quick bit of woodworking, so I headed down to my dad's shop; he had one of those bottom-bin tablesaws like you mentioned, and it was jigged together with about the same degree of accuracy/safety as your granddad's. I made a quick featherboard for it and was able to get my job done without losing any bodily parts, but it was a miracle that my dad hadn't lost any *more* of his digits (he had lost most of the middle finger on his left hand as a child, playing with a cream separator on the farm). He went to his grave--he passed last year--with all 9-1/2 fingers, amazingly enough.
My dad lost the tip of his middle finger (maybe 1/2") on a planer/jointer. Kinda took the starch out of him as a woodworker.
It's not your responsibility...
...to save your brother.
You can't.
You've done all the right things...you educated him, you bought him jigs/implements to allow him to work more safely. But you can't re-boot his mind. That's up to him.
Some folk have learning curves that actually slope upwards. Some have flat lines. If he's old enough to be married, he's old enough to have figured "it" out.
I had a tablesaw incident years ago, and I was doing nothing out of the ordinary. Basic table saw work. But I got dinged. I never cleaned up the blood. I see the now black stains on occasion and it's my reminder to not forget. I also do a lot of what would be considered unsafe operations on the table saw...but I do them respectfully, and with caution.
I have a brother that "can't be taught". So I don't try to teach him. I don't try to save him. And I don't let him use my tools, because he's dangerous. To himself and to my tools.