Replies

1. 
   andybuildz | Dec 03, 2003 04:13pm | #1

   I have to agree with you.

   Sand the floor "now" and see what happens and if in fact they can even get it flat again. Sounds like what I would have suggested even if you hadn't mentioned it. Also.I'm sure you know but be the sure there is proper spacing around the perimeter of the walls for expansion. I've seen too many floors buckle really bad because that was ignored.

   Be well

             andy

   My life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   jimmy1 | Dec 03, 2003 04:38pm | #2

   Thank you Andy,

   I had not given good consideration to the perimeter which is really tight.  Any idea how they could cut this back a bit to get some breathing room?

   Jimbob

1. 
   WOODEXPERT | Dec 03, 2003 05:10pm | #3

   jimbob,

   crain makes a nice toe kick saw which can cut right up yo your walls.

   lee

2. 
   andybuildz | Dec 03, 2003 10:00pm | #6

   use a sawzall or pull out the last board and redo it......My life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

2. 
   SEBDESN | Dec 03, 2003 06:00pm | #4

   <Also.I'm sure you know but be the sure there is proper spacing around the <perimeter of the walls for expansion. I've seen too many floors buckle really bad <because that was ignored.

   Andy, I have seen a room that the base shoe was nailed to the flooring, and it moves out an inch in the winter, and then back snug in the summer. This on a 12 foot wide red oak floor!

   Bud

1. 
   jimmy1 | Dec 03, 2003 07:42pm | #5

   Bud writes: Andy, I have seen a room that the base shoe was nailed to the flooring, and it moves out an inch in the winter, and then back snug in the summer. This on a 12 foot wide red oak floor!

   Bud

   Bud, how much would youneed at the edges for say a 30' x 18' room?  At least an inch all sides?  Or more?

   jbob

1. 
   SEBDESN | Dec 04, 2003 02:43am | #9

   <Bud, how much would youneed at the edges for say a 30' x 18' room?  At least an <inch all sides?  Or more

   JB, Not being a floor guy, I can't comment on that. I do mostly cabinets and custom furniture. As you know the wood changes size across the grain (mostly) and you can find various charts that tell you the percentages.  I was only trying to illustrate that the movement is not to be ignored. Good luck, and I will be interested in the responses from the big guns. I have a kitchen floor coming up that will need that taken into consideration.

   Bud

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 04, 2003 03:26am | #11

   http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=shrinkage

   I played with it for 2.25"maple and a 5% differential for potential movement with flat sawn lumber. It showed a diff of 1/32" per strip. If you allowed half of that for bruising and half for movement, you get 2.5" of movement in a 30' room, if laid that direction. The is no effective lineal movement from moisture.

   That calls for a posible 1-1/4" at each side of the room. Can't say that I've ever seen that much, but I think the widest room I have put maple into is about 22'.

   Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   iloveeva | Dec 03, 2003 11:29pm | #7

   I am not a flooring expert by any means, but I never understood why a 1/4" or 1/2" gap was needed around the peremeter of a *nailed* in hardwood floor.  Assuming the planks are 3 or 4" wide maple/oak type flooring either face nailed or nailed at the tongue, how can the whole floor expand/contract.  The nails keep the boards rigidly attached to the plywood subfloor...which does not really move much.  So the only possible movement is of the very edge boards....and that would only be significant if very wide plank (12") was used.

   Floating floors like Pergo are another matter altogether and I understand an gap been necessary since the whole floor acts like one large peice of wood.  But nailed pieces just cannot move anymore than the subfloor they are attached to.  Please help me understand.  Thank you.

   -Richard

1. 
   andybuildz | Dec 04, 2003 01:03am | #8

   You may need Luvditvhburns or Piff here to explain the science of all that. I'm jut a 30 year carp thats seen it happen over and over.

   YA gotta leave at LEAST   3/8" or so gap against all walls for expansion......who cares why.ya just have to....ok? Wood expands differently in all different conditions....Whats the big deal......gets burried under the molding anyway. right?

    Ask the experts the scientific answer like Piff or Luvditchburns

   or all a these scientific guys........I'm just a bozo on the bus.

   Be well bro

               andy

   edit'''''sorry....hard cold day

   My life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 12/3/2003 5:05:16 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 04, 2003 02:57am | #10

   Hi Bozo,

   I'd like to hear from luvditchburns too on this, and on why he chose a handle so hard to type.

   I leave a 3/8" gap around, but you don't ALWAYS hgave to do it. It depends on the species of wood and the environment where it will be installed. I have also seen the buckling when the gap was ignored, and if my memory serves me right, I have seen it most often on Oak.

   But it all depends on anticipated expansion. Each individual strip of flooring can expand a biut towards its neighbor and squeeze shoulder to shoulder a little without causing a brawl on the floor. Some species are very stable and change size very little with changes in the environment. Others move 5-6% and have to have a place to go.

   When I moved here, I was sent out to lay a floor and proceeded to get going on it two weeks later because the wood was just getting delivered. This was SYP going down. I had to explain to the boss about conditioning the wood. OK.

   So then when I asked for some quarter round to trim the room out with, I got another blank stare. It seems that they had NEVER heard of or done flooring with a gap before, fitting all pieces tight to pre-installed baseboard. Hmmmm... I said to myself. I went back to the job with some shoe to trim it out and went into the rest of the house where I saw it was all antique heart pine, close grained and quarter sawn instead of the almost green face sawn and milled SYP that I ahd for the kitchen. It was all a hundred years old and it was all fit tioght to the baseboards. Heart pine is a very stable wood and back then, they knew how to mill and season it.

   But I just don't take that chence in my work, not knowing enough in advance which woods will and which woods won't. There are charts available to find expansion percentages if somebody wanted to act like a scientist.

   I don't remember who in this thread argued that it can't move, but it does. I allow 3/8" and have observed seasonal movement of 1/4" for a 14' - 16' room with white maple or SYP. On oak, I have only installed one here and a few in CO but have never seen any of them since gettting paid. I walk on my Red Birch, SYP, Whit pine, and Maple floors regularly and see no problems as long as the customers listen to my instructions regarding care..

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Piffin | Dec 04, 2003 03:35am | #12

   This link may help you with your research, not only on this item but in the future,

   http://www.woodweb.com/

   Obviously the flooring has absorbed moisture but whence cometh it?

   I am not clear whether the plastering was done after the wood floor was laid but before it was finished or when exactly.

   Was the concrete recently poured in under, say within the past six or eight months? or is it an old building? If old was a sealer applied? If new, any way to know if a VB was used under the crete on the soils

   how did the plasterers go about protecting the flooring?

   From your description of the GC, he is an Adam Henry with his HUA who has failed to adequately supervise and MC the show, trying to beat schedule instead of do quality work. Does he have any experience with this kind of stuff or is he a trust fund kidddo trying to double his daddys money to prove himself?

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   andybuildz | Dec 04, 2003 07:44am | #16

   Piff

       The reason I mentioned the gapping around the perimeter besides "knowing" that it should be done no matter what specie of wood it is, is because of all the repairs I've done over the years. Mainly on oak but not exclusivly.

   I've seen floors buckle up incedablyyyyyyy high...almost beyond belief. I removed the planks up to the wall and reinstalled new ones with a 1/2" space at the wall which the 3/4" base plus the shoe covered. I actually was a bit surprised to hear later after my post that there was no spacing in fact. I almost didn't include that part thinking everyone knew to do that.

   When I install flooring I cut strips of 1/2" fan foil and lay them against the wall as my spacers. I probably end up with 3/8" after I put my first row down tight to it.

   How come floor guys don't space the perimeter?

   Go figure

         and where's luvditchburns lately? Maybe hangin' out with wethead?

   BE well

            andyMy life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   goldhiller | Dec 04, 2003 09:01am | #18

   "How come floor guys don't space the perimeter?"

   Say it isn't so. Please. ??? You got flooring guys like that out your way, too?

   Watched a local flooring "pro" here lay an oak floor dead tight to the walls in the middle of winter about 3 years ago. Brace yourself. 44' across the longest continuous cross-grain stretch.

   I warned the HO. He confronted da "pro". Pro refused to do anything about it. Floor buckled severely the next summer. Has since been torn out and new installed by a different guy who did it right.

   What an unnecessary waste of time and money.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

1. 
   jimmy1 | Dec 04, 2003 03:59pm | #19

   Gentlemen,

   I had no idea this question would generate so much excellent analysis. I am brand new to this site and am blown away. I thank all of you for the thought you have given this.  I am now well armed and have made my recommendations to the HO who happens to be a good friend.

   To respond to a couple points from the thread regarding the GC.  He is not a trust fund kid but probably should be.  He is an "Artist" who has done other rehab work within this industrial/loft conversion.  He has really put up the "Cosmic Shiit Deflector" and has tried to wiggle himself from any liability. He likely has no insurance, his floor guys don't speak the Queens English (they sure understood it when they were getting the job)  Unfortunately for GC, the HO is a high powered attorney working in THE most prestigious law firm in Boston, so he has a bear by the tail. She doesn't want to push that on him though because she is really quite reasonable and is willing to separate people from problems.  She certainly was niave and has made bad choices in selecting a GC and she really is feeling the pain of that decision.  She knows she should have known better, so let's not beat her up because she trusted this clown.  Even smart people can be charmed out of their $.  I know it is tough to feel sympathy for lawyers, but she is "one of the good ones". 

    I hooked her up with the floor guy from"This Old House" (not that this necessarily means he is "da man"but HO's are impressed)  he connected her with a fellow that has an advanced degree in wood technology from some silly little trade school in Cambridge with the ivy.  He is a consultant in this field and has agreed to meet with her and play the heavy.  We are pretty sure this floor is going to become land fill.  That kills me.

   Thanks again.  This site rocks!

   Jimbob

1. 
   goldhiller | Dec 04, 2003 05:32pm | #20

   He has really put up the "Cosmic Shiit Deflector"

   LMAO

   Hope you don't mind if I borrow that from time to time.

   Edit: Jeeeez. I'm really slipping in my old age. To whom do we send the billings for the consulting fees? (Attorney's understand this sort of thing). :-)

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   Edited 12/4/2003 11:01:53 AM ET by GOLDHILLER

3. 
   ed2 | Dec 04, 2003 05:52am | #13

   Moisture can wick up from grade level, safer to use sleepers under the ply along w/ a vapor barrier, but I'd bet on the green plaster job being the problem. Have trouble with contractors all the time on new work. No acclimation time, not waiting for the drywall and new paint to dry off, or even storing the wood flooring in the rooms during taping so it sponges up moisture.

   To test for slab moisture coming up now, use a moisture meter for flooring and take several readings across the floor. Problem readings will most likely be at exterior walls, especially where roof drainage comes down, splashback from walkways that hits the exterior of the building, poor drainage grading or where soil line is the highest in relation to the slab.

   There are two styles of meter,  one with pins that have to be stuck into the flooring, and a pinless which is laid directly on the surface. The pin type is more versatile, leaves marks, but you have to refinish anyway. Use a wood species color match filler like Woodwise makes to fill the nicks and to defect the rest of the floor. If you have trouble finding a meter, call Hoboken Floor Distributors in your area in Stoughton.

   They're a good tool to have, can be used to find roof or plumbing leaks. Read them across roof rafters and the bottom of roof sheathing to find leakage trails. Same with floor joists and deck sheathing to track high moisture content from phantom leaks.

   Prior to refinishing, I'd cut a 1/4" expansion joint on the perimeter with a Crain toekick saw like someone suggested. Wood floors do move, especially humidity expansion/contraction. Any scratches on the floor from the saw get addressed with the resanding.  The small @2" blade causes a high torque condition, so operate it using both hands. If serious cupping or heaves reappear, you've got new moisture problems, probably off the slab. Minor cupping can return with the memory in the wood grain.

   Might check for proper floor fasteners with a pivot magnet. Sometimes installers don't follow nail schedule, or worse, do "skip coursing" where courses of flooring are tapped into place but not nailed or stapled. This wouldn't cause the moisture heaving, but "free floating" boards would be even more prone to lifting and warping.

4. 
   goldhiller | Dec 04, 2003 06:07am | #14

   Forgive me if someone has already covered this, but..........is each board cupped (low in its center) individually in this buckling? Seems this would indicate moisture from below.

   High in center would indicate more moisture from the top side than the bottom. Flat boards buckling as a unit would indicate pretty even mositure absorbtion, but not enough room at perimeter.

   Three coats of (presumed oil-base poly) is a pretty dang good vapor resistor.

   Actually, no expansion room is really necessary at the ends of the boards if the room is laid in a "conventional" manner as the lumber won't grow or shrink diddly in length (presuming "normal" cuts of lumber). It's crosswise to the grain that the expansion is needed (again if laid in a conventional manner).

   To the questioner (no slight intended, but my old brain already forgot the name) who wondered about the need for expansion........each board can shrink by itself without effecting its neighbor, but when each swells, eventually (if enough moisture is introduced and EMC becomes higher than at installation) each pushes against its neighbor and then the pushing is as a total floor unit (as though it were one big board).........and it has to have somewhere to go. No room to releive that pressure/growth in dimension = buckling of the floor.

   I've personally never seen a floor, as described, shrink as a total unit leaving a 1" gap. Wonder if those boards weren't glued together. Maybe I shall learn something new here.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   Edited 12/3/2003 10:20:44 PM ET by GOLDHILLER

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/3/2003 10:29:46 PM ET by GOLDHILLER

5. 
   Floorman | Dec 04, 2003 07:28am | #15

   The plaster would be a problem if it was done on top of the new plywood subfloor which would allow it to collect moisture before the floor was installed.  It sound like your job problem is a lack of any moisture barrier like 6 mil plastic glued down to the slab and the coldbond mastic troweled under the plywood prior to nailing it down. Also the plastic between the floor and the subfloor can cause the floor to sweat under certain conditions. You need a rep from the flooring distributor to come out and bring a moisture meter that can read the level of moisture in the floor and the subfloor beneath it. My meter can take those readings independently. If the moisture problem was coming from above the floor you would experience crowning and not cupping. This problem is happening from underneath your floor. The plywood may have been wet when it was purchased and installed. 20% moisture is considered wet. There will be cupping if the plywood has 4%+ moisture content over the finished floors moisture content. Very common to see 12% in the plywood and 8% in the floor in So. Cal.  The plywood is your culprit. This job is a tear out unless the owner can wait for two years for it to dry out and that is if there is no new moisture added in the mean time. Sanding now will only be a temporary fix until it crowns later and need to be sanded again. Mold is also going to be a problem. And that is another discussion altogether.  GW

1. 
   Mongo | Dec 04, 2003 07:59am | #17

   Greg,

   Haven't seen your name for a while, good to see you back on the board.

   Mongo