Hi, I have just joined the Group. My husband and I are hoping to build a new house. We have cut down the square footage as much as reasonable and have bumped up the budget to the maximum. So, that leaves “specs” as the area in which to cut in order to meet the budget. However, certain appliances, fixtures, energy saving HVAC and flooring choices are important to us, and rather than downgrade these, what other construction type specs can be addressed to save money? One person suggested saving molding for the future because it can be done later (as opposed to buying cheap counters and upgrading to quartz in a few years, for example, because then you waste the price of the less expensive item and double the labor cost). Any ideas would be appreciated, as well as how to handle a builder who is very Dutch Uncle.
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You wanna 'splain Dutch Uncle? never heard that term.
There was a discussion here about a year ago about ways to cut the construction budget amnd still end up with a decent house. Stuff like leaving out the interior trim, painted plywood floors, etc. It thoroughly discussed things that should not be skimped on too.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Dutch Unclehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_unclebobl Volo, non valeoBaloney detecter WFR
Edited 7/23/2006 3:50 pm ET by bobl
whatever your budget is, you going have to triple it with the price of material and labor rising everyday. That just for the budget house no fancy.
Hope I can define Dutch Uncle without offending anyone! I think it derives from the reputation that the Dutch had of being very thrifty, not letting their hair down, the attitude that you can't have fun. Puritanical might also work.
Anyhow, the discussion you refer to sounds precisely like what I need, but I have no idea how to dredge up that information. In fact, the extra aspect, namely what NOT to cut, is equally as valuable.
> I think it derives from the reputation that the Dutch had of being very thriftyMy great grandfather was a grocer--Pennsylvania Dutch--and would break a bean in half to land exactly on a pound without going over. While Dutch Uncle is not necessarily flattering, it seems to address the stereotype.Cutting 6.66% from a 750k budget...you wanna start with the big items...see if there are any big chunks that can really cut into the 50k deficit. I'd be looking at the overall amount of space and the general layout of the house. Is it a rectangle or does it have a million recesses and protrusions? Is the foundation easy or a nightmare? Are the roof lines clean or convoluted. Boss hit at this with his suggestion to ask subs. He's a truss guy and can tell a client if they have an expensive or average truss package. Lots and lots of roof lines and extra corners in the foundation will always cost a bunch, with (arguably) little benefit.Working with a 750k budget, it's a little hard for me to suggest holding back on the crown, or using temp light fixtures as the way to go. Heck, you might even wanna define one of the "extra" rooms as optional and then plan it as an addition some years down the road. If planned right, might not be that hard. There's a lot of people who would prefer to live in a smaller space that completely done, over a larger place that's largely unfinished.It'll be interesting to see where others think you'll get the biggest bang for the buck. For me to offer more, I'd need details on the finishes you've chosen in the current design, plus more design details.
My great grandfather was a grocer--Pennsylvania Dutch--and would break a bean in half to land exactly on a pound without going over.
try being dutch/scottish . . . my ancestors would take that same bean, stick it someplace, and pull it out as a diamond . . .
I'm never having dinner at your place.
...as well as how to handle a builder who is very Dutch Uncle.
Get a new builder? If he is like that up front he's not going to get nicer or easier to work with once things start.
As for how to cut costs, it's not an easy answer since we have no idea what building methods or materials the contractor is going to use.
If it were me I'd suggest that you either need to choose less expensive finish materials, change the design to something easier to build, or cut the size. The basic building practices aren't all that negotiable.
What's the gap you're trying to bridge--$1,000 or $100,000? Answers will depend on it.
And what if there's no way to bridge the gap...if all you "need" is bigger than what you have? What's the fallback?
You raise a very good question and I should have mentioned this in my first posting. It would appear that there is potentially a $50,000 difference. (Between our $750,000 budget and what is being talked about) I realize in today's world and real estate markets, what feels extremely expensive to me is becoming more the norm of new construction....)
What we are trying to do vis a vis our current house is not only add space (we need a larger more efficient kitchen, room to hold study groups of 16, a weaving studio and a library), but make a house that is energy efficient and somewhat universal in design for our retirement years (about 15 years away). We also are looking for value in our choices, such as not having high maintenance costs or short lived components that will need replacing. By the way, we have Squared Off the house but for the side entrance garage which thus creates an "L".
As for a fallback if all else fails, I guess we'd have to consider selling our vacant land and just looking for an existing house that could be adapted to our unique needs
My suggestion would be to ask the individual subs and suppliers for their cost cutting opinions. As a truss supplier, I get questions all the time about cutting costs. Since I do this all the time I can generally tell customers where the money is on a job. Sometimes there are simple things that can be changed, sometimes there aren't. But I don't mind being asked about cost cutting.
I can resist anything but temptation.
Other things to consider (also widely discussed in past threads) are energy costs and material efficiency.
You mention 15 years from retirement. About the time to start considering replacing roof shingles and (ideally) a new paint job. Is it worth it to consider materials that might last longer/not need the maintenance (i.e., metal roofing or brick)?
The way energy costs are rising, is a SIP system possible? Can the future energy savings offset a different construction type? Are alternative methods a realistic option (i.e., earth sheltered homes)?
This should be an exciting time for you. Hopefully it will remain this way. Just remember to follow the 3 p's:
be patient
be pragmatic
be pushy (about what you really want)
One thing I haven't seen in this thread.Where are you?A$750K house in the Hamptons isns't the same as a $750K house elsewhere.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Bobi, Yes, another important question. The house hopefully to be built will be in southwest Michigan. (Alas, not the Hamptons, but also why we hope to have a few nice features in a house with a $750,000 budget).
Some of the responses I'm receiving match my own inner philosophy of buying the best quality you can afford with the thought that better quality often costs less in the long run. (Even if we decide to downsize in retirement, better quality makes for a better resale, but to be honest, having watched my parents stay 30 years in a house they claimed would be for 6, we are also trying to add features that would allow us to stay as long as we (or God) intend(s). Thus, some of the extra square footage comes from 4 foot wide hallways to accommodate any possible wheelchairs--is this crazy?
"comes from 4 foot wide hallways to accommodate any possible wheelchairs--is this crazy?"not to me.with the added life span, seems more a necissity
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"(Even if we decide to downsize in retirement, better quality makes for a better resale,"I sometimes wonder if that true.A top of the line quality kitchen or bath is what in 15 years? a 15 year old kitchen or bath, same with light fixtures etc. If you sell in 15 years what will the buyer be looking for in regards to fixtures?Hardwoodfloors will likely always be good, but I'm not sure about stone tile, or any tile.How often does a fairly new kitchen or bath get redone by a new owner cause they don't like the color or style?certain quality things will always have a resale goodness to them, but how are houses priced that are 15 years old? by comparing the price to other similar houses, and how much more is a buyer willing to spend additionally on a preowned house?BTW I'm an HO so you can put these comments into perspective.Hope some of the others post to what I'm saying.To some extent I think people who have a house built should get what they want and not think resale value. Only think sale value if you're saling in a year or two.after spending several years on this site, I don't think you will really know what it will cost until you get real figures from builders. might be worth paying a couple for preparing a "bid" package.bobl Volo, non valeoBaloney detecter WFR
Edited 7/24/2006 1:13 pm ET by bobl
You don't necessarily need 4 ft hallways, but be sure to include doors at least 32" wide ... everywhere, including closets. Maybe not for the secondary bedrooms, but certainly for the master and any places you would want to go: laundry, bath, garage, kitchen, pantry, etc.
Plastic laminate counters now, to be replaced with stone or tile or whatever later. Cheaper plumbing fixtures, but not the rough-in pipes. Painted walls rather than wallpaper and/or paneling and chair rails. Unfinished room over the garage, but frame it with the proper floor joists.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Are there areas of the house that can be left unfinished? I know people who leave the basement with insulation and visqueen, no drywall hung. How about other rooms you can not finish. Are you going to paint the inside yourself? I know, a diy job will take 4 times as long to do an inferior job, but you won't make the house fall down later on, and it's something that can be done a little at a time.zak
"so it goes"
Ok, you've helped shed some light on where this needs to go.
You bring up accessability. Have you considered things like wall ovens? Perhaps installing a single now (in casework for a double) would help. If the budget never allows adding another, the existing oven can be moved down to accessible level far simpler than replacing a double-oven unit and a custom-fited bit of casework.
Look really hard at your casework as well as the millwork. If you go with an off-the-shelf cabinet supplier, can they fit fancier new doors in the future? Can save some bucks now usinf stock doors, which can be modified or swapped for glass-fronts later.
Check the local mill & casework people too, sometimes your local cabinet shop can do a lot more for less than one of the big name-brand outfits through a dealer can. The millwork people can often suggest trim options that are easier to install and also use less material.
Think an extra step along, too. If your interior window finish is going to be doubled, floor-length drapes with a swag & such--stain-grade window trim will only ever be seen when dusting. A plain, paint-grade mdf trim would work just fine (if making the installing trim carpenter question all parties to the decision--unless he was one of them).
Plumbing fixtures can seem like a place where you can start cheap and improve. Harder to do in practice, though. Yanking out that lavatory, which works just fine can be a task. Pulling it out of a vanity cabinet to replace it with a free-standing . . . well, there's even more work that the looming class' time requirements don't really leave available. Towel rods, robe hooks, all those fiddlly-bits, those don't upgrade real well (the holes just never ever match up). You can, however, get "families" of those sorts of accessories, and install them your self, if you feel up to it. Same goes for cabinet pulls. There's a huge markup in pull hardware, see if the casework people will give you a credit for not installng any.
I may yet come up with a few more.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If you know the windows will have drapes, don't use any trim at all. Use sheetrock returns.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
don't use any trim at all
Jeez, the trim man will really go ape "H'c'me the Livin' Room, T' Livin' Room, got that em-dee-effin' trim . . . ?" <grumble grumble grumble> (In some fairness, the plans the trim man sees don't say anything about the $500 of drapery going there.)
The next owner might want plantation shutters, or miniblinds or the like; and p.g. trim is neater than s/r returns in my book (and less like collegiate appartments, my sine qua non for "cheapo").Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>> $750,000 budget <<
What kind of square footage are you thinking about? (heated and unheated?)
"By the way, we have Squared Off the house but for the side entrance garage which thus creates an "L"."I know that southwest michigan = mountains of snow, but is it possible to hold off on building the garage for a couple of years? A well constructed two car garage could easily make up at least half of the budget shortfall. An unfinished basement handles household storage until the garage is built. A small freestanding garden shed takes care of the lawn mower / snow blower, etc."As for a fallback if all else fails, I guess we'd have to consider selling our vacant land..."Describe this land.
- What improvements have currently been made?
- What improvements do you still have to make?
- How many trees need to be removed to build the house and driveway?
- Will you be on city water and sewer or private well and septic?
- How close are utilities such as electric service to the site?
- How far from the road do you want to site the house? Each foot back increases the cost of electric service feeder, driveway, etc. (and the associated excavation for each item).
- Have the house and foundation been designed to accomodate the natural topography? You've mentioned that this is a two story house. Would a ranch with a fully finished daylight basement work better?
- Is the property large enough to keep and spread all spoils (excavated soil) on site to eliminate trucking costs without affecting drainage on your site and the neighbors land? With fuel costs like they are, trucking costs are going up every day.
- Are you planning retaining walls that can be reduced in size or eliminated altogther with grading?
- What are the paving surfaces? Stick with a gravel drive and walks for a year or two and finish as neccessary when cash is available. Of course this would probably only really work in the country. Most municipalities require a paved drive and walks prior to final inspection and occupancy.
- Are you planning a large deck or patio? If so, cut back to the bare minimum and add on in a few years.
- How much landscaping are you planning as part of this budget?And the list goes on. This is just the beginning of major costs in site work.As you can probably tell by now, there are all kinds of things that you might be able to do outside the house to drive down the cost without touching the quality of the home itself or your wishlist.
On behalf of all the dutch uncles here, I would tell you to examine your "needs", and decide which of them are "wants". Take care of the needs, and add the wants as your budget allows.
Yes, in principle I do not disagree with you, and we've knocked out so many desires that one might even ask why build another house if you can't include the things your current house lacks. But, that aside, (and it is a serious question for anyone considering building), before we get to the possibility of calling it all off, I am trying to explore what items can wait and also construction choices that I might not know of to be choices. For example, I mentioned the idea of adding crown molding later. I'm wondering what other "wants" can be deferred, which are still best to do now because later would be either impossible or much more expensive, and which could be simply altered (perhaps there are equally good less expensive alternatives) Thanks for your interest and time!
>I am trying to explore what items can waitUse $2 light fixtures and $20 toilets and $10 faucets. Trade them out later. Don't know what you were initially planning to spend, so don't know the savings, but if you'd spend $200 on a fixture otherwise...Again, what's the goal--cutting a couple grand or a hundred grand off the prices you're seeing? That'll give a clue to the type of things to be explored.
First, find a builder who will work with you. It took us a couple of tries, but we did it. (PS - Thanks for the exposure to the term Dutch Uncle - you'll find a few of those on this site, too ;-)
Second, take on some tasks yourself, but be realistic based on your time and abilities. It may be as simple as site clean-up.
Tweak, adjust, and then refine again the design for the most efficient use of materials and time. Simple things like common plumbing walls, no un-necessary corners on the footprint, etc. Things like this help incrementally. We, too, went through many design revisions shrinking and adjusting. What you will see at the blog is our 4th "Final Design"
I've asked the same question as you here in the past. For a unrepentant DIY'er hiring a pro to build a house; the truth of the matter is - unless you want to build a 2 story colonial box with all "spec-grade" finishes - be happy if you save 5%.
Some people claim greater savings going it on their own or with companies like Ubuildit, President Homes, or Homeworx, but in the end I suspect the finished house savings are not as great as originally hoped for.
The alternative is to take forever and do it out of cash - but most neighborhoods frown on that.
Lastly - decide on your budget, get firm and realistic prices for everything, and then stick to that budget (but still plan on going over by 10%. . . )
There is a lot of good advice here from pros - expect that their advice will keep you from making costly mistakes rather than teaching you secrets to save 1000's.
A seminal truth - It will never be cheaper to build a house that right now. (interest rates aside)
It will never be cheaper to build a house that right now. (interest rates aside)
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Good Morning, and thank you for taking the time to respond! We need to meet with the Builder tomorrow, so this is very timely. Indeed our Architect is coming along, both to explain the plan and talk "cost", but also to form his own opinion as to whether we can work with this particular Builder (who is extremely good, but there seems to be the personality issue). (Alas, the design fees keep adding up as we keep making changes to accommodate rising prices....)
Mountie
You said that your archetct is coming along! These people are great for making fancy looking super ineficient designs that cost a lot of money but "look nice" Have a very good builder to help design your house. He will use common sense demensions like 16-20-24ft. ect. and help weed out expensive materials. Sorry to sound negitive but these are my experiences and 2 cents.
Architect... get rid of him and you will save over 20% TODAY
find a set of basic plans... and a builder... and adapt them to what you like and what will work $$ wise...
If an Architect can't sit with you and say... "i can design you a house that can be built and just the design and information i provide will save you more than my fee" if he can't say that... ditch him NOW
NOW for 750k wow what i could build... but if time is an issue... and it's never an issue with me... then you are at the end of someone elses chain...
what i wouldn't do
i would not use anything cheap where the labor to install it is more than the produt you are installing... ie 3tab roofing... you couldn't save 2k in materials and you'd have a cheap roof something you'd see everyday and be sad about...
I think any GOOD builder could cut over 10% off anything designed by an Architect...
shop everything... and i think you can get exactly what you want and save 10%
maybe fiberglass shower in a spare bath but not in a guest or master... some places you need to shine...
kitchen... get what you want but SHOP FOR IT ask for discounts... floor models... or a dented unit where the dent wil never be seen.... pick the counter top you want & like... then shop for something that looks so close you can't tell if you can save 50% it's worth it... if you are save'n 10% ...maybe not...
offer to pay cash up front for anything you can in exchange for a discount min 5% but shoot for 10% this includes labor from trusted trades or subs... i'm not talk'n beat'n the IRS i'm talk'n they know they will be paid upfront and zero chance of get'n screwed... also when you don't use a credit card for anything you are save'n a merchant a min of 2%.. if you do use a credit card make sure you get rewards...
ask " if you can do this on your own time (ie when you aren't busy or have a slow down) can i get a discount..."? as long as it is done in the next X number of days...
EBAY... for anything you can think of that you know you will need... faucets come to mind... but also bath fixtures paper holders, towel racks ect... even with shipping expect to save 50% on new in the box stuff... chances are you can get the exact MOD# you wanted anyway...
PEX... no copper pipes...
work real hard to get big electrical eaters close to the electric panel... ie kitchen, water heater if electric... a/c compressors as long as you don't have to have long copper pipe runs...... group bathrooms (back to back) ect...
windows... shop em... and use stock sizes... custom costs$$$
any smart design will save you $$$
ok i'm finished
p
Architect... get rid of him and you will save over 20% TODAY
Maybe, maybe not.
Might save money until tha AHJ requires a wet stamp for permits.
Might save money until "drafter dan" forgets some key aspect of barrier-free design. Or builder Bob forgets that a low-curb master shower (or the convertible powder room) is not a even-steven swap for a stock tub/shower unit.
Pointy-haired arhcy just as likely to forget such things too; but not all of us couldn't tell a Piffin screw from a sinker after sitting on a bagfull, too.
Shoot, I could likely complete their desired program, on a lot twice as big, and still bring it in under half a mill; but they'd have to want to move to hot, sweltering, Central Texas instead of SW Michigan.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Architect... i might have pointed em with a broad brush
It has never been my experience that one has brought anything to the table except for that stamp... thats just my experience... I've seen great buildings and someone somewhere had to trust in an Architect for that building to be built so that I'd be able to look and say "WOW"
Now i'm with most on this issue... 750k and we are worry'n about 50k ?
btw 42" is commerical code for ADA hallways in most cases....
my main points were don't leave off the things that make you love a place... find some way to get what you want at less expense.... and i was offer'n ways to do just that.. and don't use cheaper materials when the main cost is the labor it takes to install/use em...
I stick with the fact that an Architect should bring enough to the table that it should more than offset his/her fee...
I'll add another ... I'm not a fan of most real estate agents... in pecking order they fall below car salesman in my book... chaps my butt when i see then try to justify 7.5% of a sales price... which many times works out to over 25% of a sellers equity which may have taken 5 to 10yrs to build... but again if they can bring me a deal show me a way to make a deal work and show me how with their information they have/will make me more money than they cost... I'm all for em.... just hasn't happened yet... I've got one who goes around tell'n people how much money he has made me... when i've written every contract and structured every deal and I just send him off with the paperwork.... guess it's all comes down to which side of the fence ur on...
p
I'm not a fan of most real estate agents
We agreae on that at least <g>.
I have to be a little careful, my aunt is a Realtor in San Diego, so I do know one 'good' one (never bought or sold anything though <g>).
But, generally, RE agents, in my book are like music biz attorneys; they show up, there's lots of noise and fury (mostly signifying nothing), then they galavant off, having drawn a fee for just being there. Just the way it is, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>I think any GOOD builder could cut over 10% off anything designed by an Architect...OK, enough's enough. The anti-architect comments from you, kayaker, and others recently are as unnecessary as if I paint all builders with the same kind of broad brush that you're using, but based on stories of the _builders_ who've done really stupid things.You say a GOOD builder could cut >10% off anything designed by an Architect, but your examples are of things that have nothing to do with the Architect...cash discounts, floor models, ebay.Let's look at the "damned if you do and damned if you don't" position a designer's put in...I had a builder who got on my case if I didn't spec the specific appliances, and thus know the exact dimensions of each and the room it needed. But you come along and say to use ebay and look for floor models. Since I can only spec models that exist and can be ordered when the builder gets around to needing them, that makes it pretty hard to count on ebay and floor models. So, either I'm not giving enough detail, or I'm specing something more expensive than the builder/owner can find. Rock and a hard place.Don't pass all the bs off onto another profession. If everyone brings what they're good at to the table, the owners will get the best result if we aren't all pointing fingers and passing the buck.
Mr Mountie
that 50 grand question should be a problem we all entertain on "our" 3/4 million dollar projects
not real germane to your issues but you find that extra 50 grand and your abode will be worth 100 grand more than that 700,000 you've been fidgeting with ( assuming that professional manifests all the proficiency Cloud & I think he will ) by the time it is completedI think you were the one who mentioned 4 foot halls
my 1900 built home ( w/ a few minor adjustments ) has a main hall of 6 1/2' wide upstairs so I installed a wall of base cabinets w/ bookcases on top & we have a library to beat the band w/ seating plus more than 4 ft way room / incorporate some clerestory windows or transoms and maybe you've eliminated a library room?stay top notch on all
amoritize it all / that 12 grand you save w/ your dutch uncle may cost 22 grand when you think you can handle it in 18 months
to me that dutch uncle moniker ( what do I know )means he is an advocate for you, the house & himself against all other elements that have no interest in aligning with your direction or drift / you need him to steer shipyou're getting nothing but good input from this whole bunch to help you through this process
Hello Everyone,
A couple points: the $750,000 was determined by us because it represents the largest mortgage we can obtain. We thus presented this to the Builder originally as our desired cost of a house (we own the land). It is a huge stretch for us, and so our first response to the suggestion that a "dream house" could not be built for this figure was many-sided: frustration, disappointment, disbelief, anger, etc. And, yes, because it is a drop dead number (tho' one I would have thought was hardly being cheap!), that $50 grand is quite an issue.
"We all should have such problems"--since we are borrowing the entire amount (land will be downpayment) please don't think we are rich folk complaining about money we'd rather put into a yacht! Shucks, if I were really rich, this would be the easiest and painless process in the world. "I'll take the best of everything, thank you..."
OK, kidding aside, one might question why we'd stretch to the full extent of our financial capabilities and be in debt way into retirement (or forego retirement???), but we need more space and specialized areas to pursue those things in life that make life worth living--well, perhaps that is a little melodramatic (sorry, I'm bracing for this afternoon's meeting) So, while sacrifices from the "dream" may have to be made, and even facing the worst case scenario that it all could fall through, it is worth the effort, aggravation, and research (and all your input!) to see if it just might work.
The Builder's initial general comment was that it costs $185 to $200 a square foot to build. So, depending on how many square feet can be cut down, we still are trying to see ways to bring that down to a lower per square foot cost. As you all know, a smaller house often is a larger per square foot cost, since some of the expensive areas, kitchen, baths, etc, will be present no matter the size.
Addressing one question: the land is flat, and heavily wooded. It is much larger than the building portion. We own it completely after all these years (one reason why we are embarking on this only 15 years away from retirement). Yes, if we were to make the basement livable we'd have to dig down daylight windows and use retaining walls--our current plan thus has a bonus room for a weaving studio over the garage rather than try to make a nice finished basement. While I don't know if it is an even trade cost-wise, it is personally more appealing for light, "feng shui", etc.
Many of your ideas are great (as in "aha!"). Thanks. The use of halls for a library is one I hope to bring to this afternoon's meeting in particular.
After thinking about it a bit more, I'd suggest building everything as you would want to have it at retirement. Getting hit with a number of costly upgrades just prior to retirement probably isn't something you want.
To save 10% you might look into working with a smaller builder that takes longer, but has good quality. Your life would be disrupted for a longer period of time, but it could get you close to the 10% with good quality.
A favorite custom cabinet maker has quality equal to any and prices that aren't too far from what's at Home Depot, but he works on a strange schedule and if he says cabinets take 4 months, they will take 8. He's the best bargain around if you have time.
Plumbers and electricans can and will reduce their bids if it's a long-drawn out build so they can use the project as a filler for slow times.
Contractors experienced in a wide variety of tasks can often complete something like a hardwood floor, or tile, for less money than the specialized subcontractor can, but only if the build time is drawn out and the crew has the skill set.
I've worked on 12 month new house builds and 6 month remodels for much of my career so it's familiar, efficient and makes sense, but it can seem crazy to those used to subing out the majority of the project or working with large crews.
Best of luck
I agree with you. My one experience with an architect (and I did design build in a past life) is that a good architect is an advocate for the HO, a go-between to resolve issues, a creative problem-solver with knowledge of materials the GC may not have worked with before. I definately paid for that service, and I know that I got full value for the investment.
The other thing that struck me as interesting is that the OP plans to work with a GC. An important portion of any GC's profit is the markup on materials (ref. numerous threads in the Business folder). Doing the e-Bay/used/scratch&dent route will require the GC to increase his labor bid to make his required O&P, plus (if it were me) an extra % or 2 for the hassle factor of dealing with all the unknowns of that approach.
It will never be cheaper to build a house that right now
LoL!
Other than last month, you mean, right? <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I just noticed my typo, too. I meant to type "than right now" but yep you're right.
It seems that the longer we were delayed on our project the more expensive materials, labor, and money became.
Sure, some materials spike up then settle back - but rarely do they settle back below where they were. I am hoping the copper craziness subsides a bit (more) in the next month or two.
If you plan on living in the house a long time, you might consider these "downgrades," which can be take out and replaced with more expensive things in ten years or so.
Roof it in 3-tab shingles.
Use low-cost molded hardboard-faced interior doors. Outfit them with builder-grade hardware.
Do the floors you want to have tiled in sheet vinyl instead, but on top of the right kind of substrate you can have tiled later.
Finish and trim the outside in fiber cement claps and synthetic trim like PrimeTrim or MiraTec.
Carpet all the upstairs floors except for the baths, which will be vinyl.
Use recessed can lighting wherever you can, and the least expensive can trims that can be gotten. Can trims are easily upgraded, provided the product line has them.
Most importantly, how has your architect designed the structure and the space within it for maximum budget impact? Every corner in the outside footprint costs extra money, which is why the least-cost structure has a rectangular footprint. Think barn.
Dormers and extra gables cost money. Is your roof design as simple as it can be?
Ceiling vaults cost money, as do first-floor spaces that have the ceilings towering up past the second floor. Have you minimized them?
Tub-shower units made in acrylic or gelcoat fiberglass can cost far less than using tile.
I never realized you had so much Dutch in you;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I rehashed this over in my mind, after reading some of the followup posts after mine, and rereading the OP's thread-starting post and another by her.
I got to thinking, "This can't be real. She has an architect, she's spending three-quarters of a million on a house, it's gotta have four-foot wide corridors, a meeting room, a weaving room, a library, and that's only the first few things that come to mind."
Downgrades are not the answer here. Not at all.
I think I'm on the same page as you.
3/4 of a million dollars and it's that hard to find something to cut?zak
"so it goes"
Agreed. U notice I haven't suggested any
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi, I thought I'd try to address your comment, because I can sense what you might be thinking and I hope to provide more information that might put this into perspective.
We will have a "Great Room" which will hold seating for those Study Groups, a TV for the family, the grand piano, and a fireplace. Just one large room, no additional living room, family room or whatever.
My husband wants a library room where he can "escape" and also to hold all his books--he is a professor and has LOTS of books. In my mind, I have equated this to the second room so many tract houses have (i.e. a family room and a living room are often found in the same house--but we will have a great room and a library)
The current plan has 4 bedrooms, with one on the ground floor with a full bath, which will serve as the home office, guest room, and a place for us to move down in old age, or perhaps serve as an in-law room or caregiver room down the road. (Many tract houses have 4 bedrooms, again I didn't think I was begin greedy)
There is a nice size kitchen with nook and walk in pantry--my "splurge" I guess. And a 14 by 14 dining room--in the center of the footprint, so a bit tricky to omit, and it is a useful place to provide the refreshments for the study groups, but I'm not ignoring some comments regarding this room.
Luxuries? A mud hallway, half bath, and two staircases. And a 3 car garage (common up here, providing room for 2 cars, snow, garden, lawn stuff, bikes, etc.
Upstairs, 3 bedrooms, master has sitting area, full bath and walk in closet, two additional rooms of about 13 by 15 plus two full baths and a bonus room and laundry room above the garage and downstairs bath, respectively (to share plumbing).
It is hard to envision the room dimensions in my mind--I'd be curious to know what comfortable sizes for rooms would be, and where is becomes "lavish" and not needed.
I've written all this to try to put this into perspective. I'm taking up alot of your time with sincere questions, but I'm hardly greedy--just trying to be a smart steward with our resources.
Oh yes, regarding the 4 foot wide corridors--I thought that was necessary for wheelchairs, and with a diabetic family member, it is something one thinks about, tho' hopefully it won't come to pass and the bookshelves could....
Someone did ask about the architect--we are paying him by the hour to draw the plan and elevation and provide whatever the Builder needs to "make it happen". Yes, it does get expensive....
did I count correctly, 4 1/2 baths in a house for 2 people?baths cost ~?$20K each?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Well, actually 2 adults and a 13 year old, plus a college son. Part of the concern was putting a full bath on the ground floor for that 4th room which could be a guest room, 4th bedroom, office, inlaw or caregiver bedroom--that is a place to bathe on the same level, but we also thought a half bath for company and accessible from the mud entrance also made sense. Perhaps one of the full baths on the second floor could go--I will take this idea with me in an hour....Thanks--this could be very helpful.
"Perhaps one of the full baths on the second floor could go-"or not be completed, rough plumbed, but no fixtures finishes etc.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
As one heads towards retirement, the last thing one wants is the prospect of cleaning 4.5 bathrooms. I almost always find that clients want more bathrooms than is warranted. One wanted 3 in a 2000 sf first floor. With careful thought, it's almost always possible to cut that number without losing utility. A bath dedicated to a guest room is one of the most wasteful, in that the guest room is seldom used. So a lot of money's going to a seldom used space. That's an easy opportunity to cut back.
That's true. But their "guest room" downstairs will possibly eventually end up being their own room. I would leave the full bath on the first floor.I do like the idea of completely getting rid of one of the baths upstairs. BobL's idea to put in one of the baths, with only the pipes and electric stubbed in, nothing else at all done... No wall coverings, no floor coverings, no cabinets, lights, fixtures, tub, paint or toilet... etc....While the idea came as a kind of a shock, I think it actually holds an awful lot of merit. I think every needed dollar can be saved right there. Close the door. Lock it if you want. And leave the bare, unfinished room until it can be afforded. Or use it as a very rough storage closet until it gets finished. (Cap those pipes, and put a cheapo ceramic closet light near the door.)If you don't want to use the room for storage and would rather not have it accessible until it is actually finished..... When the drywallers come in, have them drywall right over the door opening. You'll save the cost of the interior door right away, as well. You'll also save the cost of drywall and drywall finishig inside the room. (Basically this room would be bare studs, plywood sub-flooring, and pipes and electric stubbed in only.)When the time comes, it will be a VERY simple matter to cut that drywall out, and put the door in. Then finish the room into the bathroom you want. Just be sure the doorway is framed correctly before it is covered over with drywall.
Yadda yadda yadda
I was reflecting on a recent client of mine, and not this guy's first floor. In the case in this thread, the excess is the third bath on the second floor. Does each bedroom really need a separate bath? And for how long? By his description, with moving to the first floor br and the two kids leaving the nest in not too many years, he'll soon have a house with a very expensive and very empty upstairs...three unused bathrooms!Now that I've actually half looked at his description, my suggestion is to relocate the master suite to the first floor right now! Think about it...they'll use the master suite for not so many years and then spend the rest of their time in a converted guest suite. That's nuts to me. For one thing, a master suite and a guest suite have VERY different storage/closet needs. It's a HUGE waste of space to leave the master closet vacant when moving to the first floor.Make the first floor space the master suite now and enjoy it forever. Cut a bathroom out of the upper floor. Make the kids share a bathroom...it's good for their character.Yeah, I know the guest room was listed as an office, too. My suggestion is based on not knowing the use of the office--full time home office or a convenient place to set a computer and the check book? The inefficiency of switching the master suite in not too many years overrides all, particularly in light of the budget restrictions that brought him here.
u kno what bothers me about this thread? these people have an archy who knows their budget. (not taking swipes at all archys/designers) how come he's not having these thoughts?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
A comment about a specific one is not about all.We don't really know what he's been told, and what he's saying in return. I know that I've said things to client they seem to have never heard...good reason for me to stick with email over phones!Is the arch the inspiration behind the 4 baths or just going along be/c he thinks that's a client demand? We don't know. All we know is that he won't be cleaning them!!!
how come he's not having these thoughts?
These sorts of practical economies may not occur to "him" (or, more aptly, the correct "him" on the project).
The offices doing residentail work are likely to only have the one licensed architect, and 2-5 CAD drafters. The efficiency of the office is in moving completed sets of drawings out. Might actually be "under the radar" to trim the budget (how many hours of "principal" time at $90-150/hr & then CAD hours at $40-60 will it take . . . )
But, like as not, we here at BT are just out of the box that the office can think in. (When was the last time you sawe plans with "Unfinished, but plumbed, Future Bath" called out?) Some of our ideas are more in the provence of the builder, and not the archy, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
OK, so how'd the meeting go?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Yeah, me too. We are all curious to see how the meeting went.
Hello everyone, and thanks for your interest. I started to discuss the meeting in response to AlwaysoverBudget, but I'll elaborate a bit here.
First (OK, I'll bet this will surprise no one!) the Architect came forward with an Elevation we had never seen before and not what we had in mind. Oh well, I guess this can change, and must happen alot when you think you've conveyed a sense, but not well, but he also rearranged some room layouts which again were surprises.
So, not only do we need to address specific changes in the plan which is already causing difficulties but offer up budget saving suggestions to see if we can save the project.
I was sort of surprised to see the architect start talking bottom line--maybe more often done in the builder's presence? But, the points chosen seemed false economy. For example, when told that a Carrier Infinity 96 system would cost $1000 more (but would pay for itself in energy savings in 3 years--and save money from then on), to me that sounded like an expense to keep in the budget, and not quibble about the immediate $1000, especially with rising energy costs and our cold winters--am I the one who is off base here????
(On the other hand, his original plan had 10 foot ceilings, which from my personal 5'3" standpoint, might have been dramatic but hard to reach when necessary, not to mention lost space)
Anyhow, we ourselves will be out of town next week (maybe the last vacation we'll ever have), and the current plan is to give the builder our best guess of plan/elevation to price for our consideration (shock/horror?) on our return. I'm reading all your comments very carefully and trying to offer up many of these possibilities as things we are willing to do in order to get to $750,000 (yes, the spread, as estimated, got even larger and worse yesterday than I had originally thought)
Some of you have suggested holding off, but others saying it's only going to get worse. I guess we all wish we had a crystal ball. But, having already used up about $12,000 in design fees, part of me thinks it is getting close to a fish or cut bait point (whale, tuna, or goldfish?)
Architects usually are off, sometimes way off, when it comes to pricing a job. They err on the low side.
If your archy said $911K, I would bet that your dutch uncle builder will ring it up at 10 percent over that, or more. Now it is looking like 1.002 million.
Just to clarify: we told the architect our budget was $750,000 and the builder yesterday looked at the square footage and applying some formula gave a quick estimate of $911,000--consistent with your warning that the numbers would rise.
If that were the end of the matter, I think we'd just back out right now, but since we have some good ideas from this list, coupled with the desire to get a real, not estimated, pricing out before giving up, we are asking the builder to take that one next step (and to date the only real effort we've asked of the builder, since it has been the architect and us so far)
Talking about whether or not to spend an extra grand on hvac when you're 12,000 into a design that isn't yielding the right elevations and you're $166,000 above max budget is just nuts. You start with the big stuff and work your way smaller. I'm doubting that you even have an affordable footprint yet, so there's no basis for calcing loads or sizing mechanical equipment. This all seems bass ackwards to me, and I design all day every day. I'm getting the impression that there's no clear needs assessment, that the archy is working via trial and error just to see when you'll think that close enough is good enough, and that you're hanging onto every last disproportionately expensive "need" with every fiber of your being.Multiple staircases, a bath per bed, multiple master suites (that's what the guest really is) etc etc, while the discussions are about which Carrier system to select...just not the way to approach this. And with the archy working per hour, instead of pricing per project, there's not a whole lot of motivation to resolve it quickly (other than professionalism).Seems the builder is the one bringing reality to this. Were it my project, we'd be having heart-to-hearts over the big items before wasting time (and billable hours apparently) on the stuff that won't make a bit of real difference. And we'd certainly be talking about what constitutes a home that works now _and_ works in retirement without overburdening you for either (why do you need 4 br/4.5 ba in a retirement house? Imagine heating all that space with gas on a retirement income!). From what I've read here, I think you're over-reaching by a good amount.BTW, as long as we're counting pennies, roll into your calculations the yearly taxes on a house of that cost, along with a generous number for inflation.Let me repeat--if you don't even have an elevation y'all agree on, why are you discussing gas furnace models?
My thoughts exactly.
And why does the item "leave out some moldings" do anything at all to attack that huge budget overrun?
To paraphrase a campaign slogan of some years back, "It's the square footage, stupid."
Thanks to you both and anyone else who has a strong opinion. The whole point of this effort/exchange is to get real advice and opinions. I am actually happy to receive the negative with the positive, since I am new at this, obviously in a difficult situation wanting to proceed rationally etc. Plus, you are not the hired architect, you have not reason to say something pleasing, but rather something intelligent which I can consider, and this is very helpful--much more so than showing the current plan to friends who ooh and aah, but don't understand the issues.
mountie... i don't think you're listening..
you have been told that your house is too big for your budget , yet you persist in nibbling at the margins
you are familiar with the term , "triage"
you have to perform triage.. go back to your designer / architect. and tell him .. our budget is $650K
now have him do a needs inventory and tell you want bid documents that will come in at $650K
your house is too big... big .... big
and why is this builder wasting his time pricing designs that can't meet your budget.. that's not "real world "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hello Mike,
I truly am listening--to quite a few messages! Question: did you intentionally cut down the budget to $650,000 or was that a typo? In other words, are you suggesting we should ask for that much less to leave room for the expected increases?
The reason for letting the Builder come up with a real number is a desire for a hard number to work with. The estimates had enough disparity to wonder what a real contract would ever come out at. For example, one house had very complicated angles and roofing, yet was estimated at the same per square foot cost as a "box", so it truly was a case of "it's the square footage...". But, (yes, quoting the architect) we were led to believe that squaring out the design and simplifying the roof were ways to have more square footage for the same total budget.
Yes, I asked the architect how this happened to which he responded "builder math". Now, I sure don't want to get into the middle of the architect-builder issues--I'm already sorry I've spent so much supporting great art as it were, but believe me, there were many insomniac early mornings trying to work through the discrepancies and unknowns prior to finding this helpful discussion group.
I AM LISTENING!
mountie... yes.. if $750K is your drop dead number.. then your budget should be less.. and i think your target should be in the range of $650K
if you are not careful and prudent , you can easily wind up stretching yourself to fit into your house with a total financed amount of $850K..
a small downturn in the economy and a bigger turn in your personal finances and you can find yourself trying to sell your house in a down market to try to stay whole
worst case.. you could go upside- down and sell your house for $650K to avoid bankruptcy and wind up $200K in debt and owning nothing
i'm an optimist.. one of the prerequisites for being a builder...but 30 years in the business tell me you are trying to build a house that is 2x your budgetMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mountie -
A couple of people have mentioned a needs assessment, which includes a good and detailed list of how you live your life to determine how your house needs to fit you. It's not clear if one were ever done, or if you just went to the architect and said design us a house. It does make a difference.
As far as the designer themselves, the open ended retainer is wonderful for them. As you put it, you have paid for some wonderful art. It's your job as the client to tell them what you want, what you need and where the budget is. Part of their job is to tell you if your ideas are workable or not. I know of one architect who has told his cleints "I don't care what your budget is. That's the only way to design it. You get the money." (He basically told his mother and father they were going to pay about 30K to put 2 closets in an upstairs bedroom because he was going to have to redesign the entire 2nd floor, including the roof.) Some people can do that and get away with it.
Likewise, it's not the archi that's going to build this house. Once you find the real design, you really need to get in touch with the right builder. You think this thread has taken off? Go back and find some of the older threads on selecting a builder. You seem capable of handling some of this, but we may yet find you sitting in a cardboard box muttering to yourself.
As far as your dreams, some other people have dealt with that issue already. Time for a good reality check there too.
Good luck and enjoy the trip.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks for your input!
Yes, this is a reality check--but better now than any further down the road. It is also bringing out the "can do" and "can find a solution" part of me that I'm glad to know is there. (Tuesday night I thought it was all over--at least today I feel like it's a challenge, but there will be a solution!)
Alas, some lessons are expensive for first timers to learn, but the optimist in me says we are still better off to address it now. So, regarding all those architect expenses, and no doubt this beginner's lack of knowing how to deal with an architect, a question remains: do we keep him involved or hope to find a stock plan off the Internet?
I have obtained the Susanka books and begun reading--a great find.
I've also reminded myself that we are not rushing to a fire (a feeling that creeps into this process because of the lack of stability in prices and interest rates these days, but there has to be a happy medium--I suspect many mistakes are made in a hurry)
One change that seems totally self-evident: the square footage has to decrease. And from some of the comments, I'd guess from 1000 to 1500 less footage above ground?
We also are considering whether a completely flat lot can be turned into a garden or even walkout basement in order to put the library and a bedroom and a full bath down there, even getting a play area for the kids thrown in--as in where to put the TV and noise, and removing these from elsewhere.
(Many comments and Susanka recommend double and triple duty for every square foot possible, and that is more than fine with me!)
don't forget there is something called a designer, or designer/builder. not archys, but can do design.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Fire the architect, buy a full-version of SoftPlan or Chief Architect for $1500-$2000 and design it yourself.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Mountie -
I think you have a good idea of the issues and the resolutions, but you may not have admitted it to yourself. Comments like "...many mistakes are made in a hurry..." are appropriate.
As far as the archi, I would tell him to put things on hold for a few weeks and hit the internet hard in the interim. Try your library and some bookstores too. Look at/for other designs to see if something stock fits. If so, work from that. Nothing precludes you from getting ideas from other sources. it's been done for centuries.
The Susanka books are good reading, and yet you need not adopt everything she says either. You can use some of her ideas, a few, most, whatever satisfies. Her attitude toward design is a far cry from your mindset going into this. But we can always learn, and change our minds in the process. Take off 1500 feet? If it was my heating bill, it would be more than that!
As far as using the back yard and the basement, that would seem to make plenty of sense. Be careful with landscape design, the architects that do it charge really well too, and you could spend that 75K that you want to save in the landscape, or wind up with more artwork...(G).
You are right, it's not a race. Prices will go up a little while you are working on it for a few months, but that is better than doing it twice, or paying for it and not getting what you want.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thoughtful and thought-provoking response! Seriously, I am pretty much in the position you suggest, and if anything, am gaining not only confidence, but enthusiasm that things will be better in the long run (including the fine HVAC)
Lots of good reading suggestions to take on vacation, although maybe I'll start with this set of Susanka books. She does have some good philosophies, but I agree that not everything is "us".
Hi,I posted earlier about our 2200 sq ft house in SE Michigan. I'm not a builder, but I would think that 10 ft ceilings would add a lot to the cost, without giving you a lot of benefit. They're nice, but then the 4x8 sheets of drywall don't fit quite so neatly.My DH is a professor, and I'm a book-addicted home-schooling mom and we're pretty loaded on books. We're just doing lots of built-in bookshelves all over--the living room, the office, the bedrooms, the hallways (someday). But I like looking at my books all over the place, some people would rather keep them hidden. We're doing the basement office/guest-room approach with a murphy bed--but we have a walk-out site, so that was an easier decision. Someone near us without a walk-out site is actually creating one by building the foundation right on the existing grade, and then trucking in loads of fill to push against the foundation walls to make a "hill" up to the house. Seems crazy to me, but a modified version of that might help you out.Good idea to take your vacation as time to clear your head. It would be bad to have to scrap your architect and start over, but I can tell you we've wasted a lot of money on people we should have fired right from the get-go, and it won't be the only time you throw money away during this experience. I feel like we're flushing thousands down the toilet every month (partly due to the construction loan interest bills every month--be sure to take interest into account in your budget).Jo
Nice to hear from you again, and from someone else going through it as well. Did you have to special order a Murphy Bed, or tell you builder to make special adjustments for it?
It sounds like digging out a daylight basement is doable on the flat lot--but I haven't talked to anyone out here who can actually look at it. The Zen garden approach (possibly herbs and a birdbath for me) also raised some new ideas.
Good luck to on your project!
Keep in mind that the egress window deal is this, and it might be different in the jurisdiction in which you build, but the window's clear opening needs to be something like x wide by y high, maybe 32 x 26, and the bottom of the opening needs to be no higher off the finished floor than about 36 inches.
That means your "light well" scoopout needs to go just comfortably below the exterior stone windowsill, not all the way to the level of the basement floor.
More good hardcore information--thanks
If you're serious about learning about design, I would highly recommend Christopher Alexander's book, "A Pattern Language". You may still need an architect (I'm not sure the current one is right for you), but you can then take the architect the book and show him the patterns that resonate with you, and I think you'll have a more focused, efficient design process.
I think this has been a cautionary tale for every homeowner considering building their dream house. The way I interpret all the back and forth is that you hired an architect, expecting him to teach you all about design and help you define your own needs and wants (not an unreasonable request, you'd think). The problem is that even if he has the skills, he's too expensive to tutor you one-on-one. It's much cheaper for you to learn the basics of design, learn the language and explore your own needs from books (and Internet forums) and other resources. At that point, you can use the architect's unique skills efficiently.
You are clearly listening and open to ideas. It doesn't sound like your architect is. We talked earlier about what makes a good architect, one from whom you get real value. One point that I don't recall being raised is a willingness to push back - as CloudHidden mentioned he would be doing at this point (or earlier!).
When you say 750K and he comes back with a 900K+ design it's time to move on. Read the books - all great suggestions, ponder the advice and then look for someone who will help you to achieve your dreams AND your budget. And I'll echo Mike - make that 650K, cause I can guarantee that things will come up and you have got to have a cushion to handle them.
Once you do get to a plan you can afford - then and only then get the good HVAC! That is one of those items I would consider in the "don't scrimp" category.
good morning and thanks for your input!
I have sent the architect a lengthy e-mail and we will be talking after he has a chance to read it. In essence, the bottom line is (1) we have to reduce square footage drastically--I used 4000 as the max for this discussion (a 1400 square foot reduction that may or may not be enough, but is a round number and starting point to get his attention--tho' maybe 3999 would do that even more, come to think of it, and (2) we can't afford to draft a brand new plan, so if he doesn't have a way to do this with the existing plan, we will have to "regroup"--which is nice language for "cut our losses".
OK, I think I hear some cheering out there? In deference to the architect, he is a very nice person, but what's that line, business is business?
Of course this still leaves us with more decisions, and it is rather nicely coincidental that we are taking our annual vacation next week to "clear the head". Knowing myself, I shall have to work out the pain of throwing away all the design fees if it comes to that, but this could very well be the outcome.
This ongoing discussion is especially helpful, not just with real world advice, but also a certain degree of moral support in going through the emotions that accompany this situation, and in helping to separate wheat from chaff, and most of all, in having the confidence to make the tough decisions!
Mountie, you're not listening.
Here is what I said earlier:
"Keep thinking of this kind of unit price . . . $200 per square foot. That means if your budget is firm, you must, repeat must, stay under 3750 sf. Target 3500, then start looking there."
This architect is the same guy that took your budget directive of $750K and came up with (what I believe to be) a house at over a mil.
You just told him 4000 sf is your new directive. Whaddya think he's going to come up with?
What you need is a new program, one that loses quite a few of the features that was in that overblown design he did for you. The ensuite full baths, the library in its own room, the eat-in breakfast room adjacent the kitchen, the second staircase, and more. They all have to go.
That is, unless you have a couple extra hundred thousand in cash.
Well, it may be better to just cut bait with the architect for now--it is starting to look that way. With so much going (no, we don't hold any winning lottery tickets), I can't imagine him just plucking them out and having a cohesive design left, and I'm reluctant to start from scratch all over again with him--or any architect at the moment until we read the books, peruse the Internet, etc.
I had posted a question to one of the messages that I probably should have addressed to all, because it is not frivolous. Suppose we get a plan down to 3750 sf, but obviously have placement,storage requirements. Is it a viable solution to increase ceiling heights to 10 feet on first floor and 9 on second and basement in order to have more vertical space to work with for storage that can utilize shelving, or is this already a major cost factor that we'd be removing any benefits of reducing sf?
Before you cut your architect loose, I'd like to suggest you carefully consider whether he was listening to you and giving you the sense that he was facilitating your dreams, or just going off on his own. If the latter, cut him loose. Otherwise, give the guy a chance.From the postings I've seen, it seems like the architect's only crime is that the project is initially 20-25% over budget. Around here, you can get that kind of variation just in contractors' bids alone, even on a very tight set of plans. Further, if he is concerned with getting you as close to your dream house as possible, then how do you know how much you have to trim back the dreams until you know what your "ideal" dream costs in the first place? Frankly, after doing this for almost thirty years, I've found that MOST (not all) clients are more interested in getting their dreams built than in meeting their initially stated budgets. Somehow, clients almost always seem to find the money. Also, most architects have found that telling a client that what they want is "not in their budget" typically does not go over well, and I have lost a few jobs as a result. Later, driving by the site, I see a project being built that is clearly costing WAY more than I was told was what the client wanted to spend. (Architects can't win either way.) Rightly or wrongly, architects pretty much have been trained by their clients to not pay the strictest attention to budgets.It's just a PROCESS, and costing followed by scope revisions, if necessary, are pretty normal and not something to get hugely concerned with. In an ideal process, the conceptual design would have been estimated by a contractor before you got to the final construction documents, and there would have been less surprise at the end. But your situation is totally salvageable and you should take advantage of both your contractor's and architect's expertise to help you get the best possible result for your money. Best of luck.
Edited 7/31/2006 3:03 pm ET by RichardAIA
Thanks Richard for your note.
I like my architect alot and I do believe he is/was trying to make this work. In fact, one reason we selected him was his skill but lack of ego and prima donna attitude (which I have heard some architects do have). But, he did make one interesting comment that is consistent with your note, namely that he was "surprised" at how important our budget and certain spec items were to us (the importance revealed by our asking him to hold tight while we think through how to make the house smaller and affordable)
This brings to mind a question I asked myself early on in the process: should you state your drop dead max (as in "I have a budget of $750,000") or state something less with the idea that you need to have a sum, say $50,000 of accessible funds for the expected extra costs which extra money everyone is counting on you finding. We took the former approach (seemed pretty straightforward and honest), but maybe the other players thought we were like everyone else. Unless we uncover a "rich uncle" ready to pass on, we are pretty firm with our number (meaning our possible extensions beyond that might be in the $5000 range--and we probably need that for moving, even if it is only to a lot across the street)
Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
Okay, one last comment or two, and then I'll get out of it. If you are 20-25% over budget, that does NOT necessarily mean that you simply need to reduce the scale square footage of your project back by 20-25%. As has been mentioned previously, approaches like panelized construction, prefab roof trusses, downgrading some finishes, etc. may well get you there without destroying the concept that you now have. I think that having a creative builder working in conjunction with a cooperative architect can get you far more than "slash and burn" approaches.In general, I think being honest about the funds available is the best approach. When clients play poker with contractors, they find that contractors play poker right back. (And contractors can play poker far better than most clients.) It sounds like you've been upfront about your budget, and the current situation doesn't mean that you haven't been heard, necessarily. You've just taken the first step towards "right-sizing" your project and you shouldn't bail out just because the first step was a little shaky.R.
Edited 8/7/2006 7:12 pm ET by RichardAIA
I gotta ask, Richard, 'cause I have built one architect-designed house each year for the last four years, and I know all my costs, just how close to the numbers are you?
How many residential bid packages and contract buys have you managed in the time I have been building these houses? What did you learn about building costs in doing all that work?
On a tightly specified package (and I believe in no other way of doing it) the size and scope of this thing Mountie and her guy dreamed up together, what range of price bids have you seen? Did you really see actual written proposals that showed responsible bidders coming in, one almost $165,000 different from another?
If you had done the serious legwork required to fully qualify the bidders on these quote requests, what did you think afterwards, of the guys who were so far away from each other?
What do you know about doing a project using panelization? Do you know that a panelized package costs more than one done the old fashioned stick lumber way? Did you know that the labor savings using panelized components are almost completely offset by the price premium, resulting in only a time savings and schedule advantage?
Did you know that an engineered truss package always costs more than the pile of sawn lumber lineals needed to stickframe the same roof, that as in panelization, you are swapping labor savings with the price premium needed to get the engineered package?
Give us a list of the kinds of things you would take out of Mountie's 5300 sf package, while leaving it the same size, in order to save her the $175,000 she needs.
I am sure you can tell by my tone here that I think you are misleading her. You seem to be saying she only has to solicit a few more bids, do trusses instead of rafters, carpet instead of hardwood, downgrade that exterior finish a little bit, and voila!, here we are right on budget.
It won't work, Richard. She wants it nice. Distinctive. Custom-designed. Built-ins. Comfort. Read that list of what the kitchen needs to have. She needs to draw the line at somewhere around 3500 sf, and she needs to be absolutely firm about only having $700K to spend. Forget you ever heard $750. It is $700.
Well, Gene, you seem to feel that there is only one correct price for a given market and project.I do somewhere between 15-25 projects a year, so probably around 300-400 over the past twenty years since I've been on my own (plus I have another 10 years of commercial/institutional experience that I'm not including here), and I'm VERY close to the numbers, so I'm not sure why you're taking such a pompous attitude with me. I've dealt with many, many different contractors, and many of them on a repeat basis for close to twenty years.You can easily get a 10% variation on price when shopping for something as straightforward as the same brand/model of tires or washing machines, so I'm not sure why you think construction is likely to be any different. Add factors like willingness to get competitive subcontractor bids, differences in OH&P margins, ability to keep certain trades inhouse, different discounts from suppliers, different desires to GET the project, efficiency in doing a particular type/scale of project, etc. and it's not surprising to get 20% variations on exactly the same project. There are many reasons for price variations other than "mistakes" or lack of quality.For example, I have one project right now that was bid by 3 contractors at about $800K and one other at roughly $650K. (All have done repeat work with me in the past.) The one at $650 has done maybe 10 prior projects with me at a similar scale, does very acceptable work, on time, is honest, and has repeatedly beat other bidders by a similar margin, and delivered on these prices for well over a decade with very satisfied customers.So what's the "correct" price for this project, huh? Having built a whole four houses (gosh!) I guess you should know.
Edited 8/10/2006 8:45 pm ET by RichardAIA
--- Knowing myself, I shall have to work out the pain of throwing away all the design fees if it comes to that, but this could very well be the outcome. ---Mountie, if it makes you feel any better (and it won't necessarily, and I haven't yet got to the end of the thread to know what happens next), I, too have been in the position of throwing out over $10,000 of architect's fees. It was about 6 1/2 years ago and for completely different reasons, but I just looked at it as both an educational process and, in fact, a recreational one. I really enjoyed designing my dream house, even if I didn't end up building it. I spent about 2 1/2 yrs with several old versions of 3D Home Architect and a year with the architect, followed by a couple of months with a builder.My original budget was $200-250K when I came to the architect, he worked with me and I revised my budget upward to $300,000 as we went along, but the bids were all way over $300,000. Maybe $450,000 or so, I can't remember. I selected and started working with the builder to determine where I could cut costs, and I suspect by the time the house would have been completed it would have come in at some $350,000 or more.I don't fault the architect or the builder. It's just the reality of things. Architects don't know the prices as well as the builders, and they are optimists, and prospective homeowners have huge appetites and are really clueless about how expensive their wants really are. The other reality is that I could in fact afford up to $400,000 (two years later I bought the house I live in now for $375,000 and sunk another $60,000 into fixing it, in a much more expensive place to live). If I couldn't, I would have dropped the whole project when the bids came in.This was in central Illinois, for a 2600 square foot single-story 3 BR 2 1/2-bath house with a 2-car garage, full basement, large covered front porch and back deck, house and garage attics framed to support future finishing, and some idiosyncrasies like a 13-foot tall gynmasium, a room off the great room with two half-height walls to use as an office but that could later be made into a fourth bedroom, and 4 large operable skylights in a central great room with a cathedral ceiling and masonry fireplace. Stain-grade built-up trim in most of the rooms, brick veneer from grade up to the floor of the first floor and hardi-plank siding from there on up, quality wood windows.So why did I drop it in the end? Professional dissatisfaction combined with the absence of prospects for a social life in the small town where I had started out led me to just drop it all, change careers, and leave for California. Fortunately, *before* I actually signed a contract with the builder (I did ask him how much I owed him for his invested time and lost opportunity, and paid him what he asked without question).My point being to reinforce what all of the builders have been saying, that at this stage you have to cut WAY, WAY, WAY back on your planned budget, because you WILL go way, way over it. And the time and money spent with the architect is not a total loss, just an expensive diversion and an education. You may yet be able to salvage some general ideas from it, but I would plan on redesigning essentially from scratch. Go for too small and increase if you find there's still budget left over, rather than maybe small enough and hope to shave it some more if it's still not quite there.Rebeccah
Hi Rebeccah,
I have just returned from a week away in Door County, Wisconsin, and no, I did not spend all that time thinking about this project (in fact, I rather enjoyed NOT thinking about it!). I am now opening up e-mails and very much appreciate the comments you made in response to this ongoing discussion.
Your particular experience hit a nerve because I have several times referred to the design aspect of all this as "education". That it has been.
At this juncture, it is very clear that the design (any design) has to be much smaller. I have the architect on hold, have begun looking through some Internet plan sites, and have even taken out the graph paper to see if any obvious places in the original plan could be chopped off to find those 1500 square feet that have to go.
It's a funny thing--having a break from this constant on-the-mind pressure is both mind-clearing and momentum-breaking. So, I'm glad to have your note in the mail to get back on track.
I may also see what is on the market in our area, again along the lines you took, especially before I ask the builder to invest his time into pricing a plan.
Hi Mike,
Duly noted and APPRECIATED!
If you have time, and haven't yet, read "House" by Tracy Kidder. It's a little dated but will give you good, practical insight on owner-builder-archy relationships, and house building in general. Also, don't forget about long-term operating costs (i.e. heating). Superinsulate. Smaller is wiser, and morally superior!
Thanks Redhen for raising an unspoken concern: while we clearly need more space (particularly better used space adjusted for our personal lifestyle that includes an inordinate number of books, need for a working home office for two professors, only one of whom has any other outside office, and accommodation for large musical instruments and serious weaving equipment--both items carrying their own unique requirements), we are not profligate people (very few teachers can be) and there is a sense of "this is not us" when looking at the original plan, sizes, even the imposing elevation, when really we'd like to find a way to make sufficient space still feel comfortable and charming. Yes, there is definitely a point where one feels it is wrong to take, take, take.
As I read these messages, new ideas keep coming to mind. I am wondering if taller ceilings (say 10 foot on first floor) would end up providing more storage space going upward--or is this just going to add even further to the bottom line. (The idea would be of course to reduce the square footage which is based on the footprint, and start using more vertical space) Any thoughts anyone? (Sigh, I'm only 5'3", but can still climb a ladder)
Here is one idea for you, re your "office/library."
You have a flat lot, so anything qualifying as a bedroom in the basement will need an egress window. Build the basement with 9-foot foundation walls, configure a well-constructed stepped-down light well adjacent the outside wall, and place a generous window, even a pair of them, looking into the light well.
The basement finished room with the light well and window is your library, your his and her office, and with a nicely trimmed murphy bed, functions as a guest bedroom for a visiting family member, in a pinch.
That Susanka design I linked you to in an earlier post, had just that. The his/her desks were in a guest bedroom that was outfitted with generous bookcase built-ins, and a queen sized murphy bed that when closed, looked like a 5x7 wall of cabinetry.
Nicely terraced down with stone walls and ledges, that light well can be a zen garden into which the room looks.
Now that you are doing areas of the basement fully finished, do the full bath there that can serve the office users, the guest using it as a bedroom, and configure it so the tub and shower areas are doored off separately from the sinks and toilet.
Do your laundry room in the basement as well, and configure walls above so clothes chutes can deliver to-be-done wash down below from the first floor bedroom, and the upper floor.
Good ideas--with one exception that I will probably not adopt, namely the laundry in the basement (for personal back problem reasons--I am so tired of carrying baskets of laundry up stairs)-- but hey, I'm making alot of positive progress and that Murphy Bed is something I never thought of (they don't fall down on people do they? all I can visualize are some old movies--oh yes, there was also one with Dudley Moore.
Here's one, found after a quick Google search for "murphy bed."
View Image
As for the laundry, you should decide where the master bedroom would be (its location sounded like a moving target in an earlier post.) Whether first floor or second, consider making the walk-in closet generous enough to have the laundry center right inside it, with no or few separate walls. One of Ms Susanka's former partners in the SALA architecture firm in M'pls MN does this a lot in her designs. A feature article on one of her houses in a past issue of Fine Homebuilding showed one.
Wow--a far cry from what the mind was envisioning!
At present we would like to put the master on floor 2, and thus the idea behind a 2nd floor laundry.
In its first appearance, the plan had a full bathroom and bedroom (doubling as office, guestroom, future in-law suite or room for us to use in emergency where one/both could no longer take stairs) on the first floor as well.
What with some of the changes we are talking, that room and bath no longer exist on the first floor, moving to basement, but there is always the emergency aspect. (If we become so decrepit, of course we will move, but if one of us has a problem, or if it is temporary, we just wanted coverage to avoid sending one of us "out" or being forced to sell too quickly and possibly badly.)
So, another question to address that: can one simply add a set of closets, or reinforced walls on top of each other to allow for, but not commit to, an in-home elevator if and when it seems an emergency, thus removing any need to put the master and laundry on the first floor from the start (which we personally don't like) just in case of something that might not (hopefully) happen, yet we all know anything could happen?
>I am wondering if taller ceilings (say 10 foot on first floor) would end up providing more storage space going upwardIf your goal is storage, 10' ceilings are not the most efficacious way to provide that. Done properly, you decide what it is that you need to store, and in what quantities, and the designer should provide the requisite space for that. One client has a 100 or more fly rods, while another had about 2000 LP Records. Different storage needs, so different solutions. Ceiling height is part of space planning, and it must be determined in conjunction with the scale and needs of the rest of the house. 10' first floor means the second floor windows will be 2' higher than for a neighboring house with an 8' first floor. Some designs can handle that height, while others would look bad with it. And you have to consider your HVAC with it, too. If you're using forced air, then you're creating 25% more volume than for 8' ceilings.These aren't individual, isolated decisions. They're part of a system, a comprehensive plan. This whole thing is backwards. If you were my client, I'd have you go back to square one and document your lifestyle and possessions and what you want and need out of a house, along with your goals and limitations. After that, your biggest job is feedback, not design. You can say yes or no all day long to my stuff, but if you start insinuating yourself into the design--why don't we use 10' ceilings, how about changing the basement to walk out, add a sitting room for the office, a second stair would be convenient--we'd butt heads. And we'd butt heads not because of egos, but because for this to work right, everyone needs to stick pretty close to their role, and yours is to represent your requirements and limits with complete honesty, and to say yeah or nay (with feedback) to the options presented to you.You mention the architect is good natured. It's possible that he's too good natured, and won't challenge you on some of this stuff, but will go along with the endless ideas and try to incorporate everything you come up with rather than say no to you. The result is like a horse designed by committee--a camel. For a good building, someone has needs, someone designs according to those needs, and someone builds to match that design for those needs. That's how it works best, and this is getting all mucked up in the design process just as badly as if you put on a tool belt and desired to help the builder build the house, not because you have any specific experience in doing so, but because you're enthusiastic, and it's a big deal to you, and it's your nature to jump in and be involved. Not always such a good idea. You should be cognizant of the distinctions between client and co-designer. Sometimes you have to back off and trust the professionals to do their job, and then hold them accountable for doing that. My hardest projects were the ones where the clients fancied themselves as designer, but without a grasp for how the whole house had to function as a single cohesive system rather than just an aggregation of your collection of individual ideas...and unfortunately without self-awareness of this limitation.
Well said, Cloud. I agree.
Mountie needs a real architect or designer, someone who knows how to work with her and her SO and develop the complete and agreed-upon program, one that can be used to create a design that can meet the budget.
It has sounded as if she has a good natured draftsman, one who has included every snippet of the huge grab bag of "design ideas" into a house plan that ended up just too darned big and way over budget.
mountie..i still don't think you are being realistic AT ALL
your budget is too small or your house is too big
and 10' ceilings are going in the wrong direction
2' more in ht means 4 additional risers.. three additional treads.. 3' more of run...
designing your house should be a relatively straight forward process.. but it is a process and i doesn't happen overnight.. and you can never accomplish it if you can't stick to your budget or discipline yourself to make the house fit your budget
needs be damned... you don't need any more than two double-wides stuck together... ( our family doesn't need more than a single double-wide ) but we make decisions based on wants..not needs
really.. i think you budget and your needs/wants only coexist in the existing older house marketMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hello again,
well, I don't recall if it came up earlier or not (there are so many messages now that it is hard to scan them all quickly), but in my e-mail to the architect, I stated there were additional courses of action we'd need to consider, namely seeing if there were any existing older --even just a couple years older--homes that could be renovated if necessary or maybe already did meet out needs, or of course the one we are discussing at length, reducing the square footage and design to meet budget.
So, while some of my questions I've thrown out sound "off track" or not correct, such as the higher ceilings, they are not fixed ideas, just questions. Your own response pretty much ends the 10 foot ceiling issue, but it was worth asking. As I see it, the two major choices are build on our land a smaller house or look around at the existing real estate market. The budget is what it is, and between those two choices, well, it really depends on what the market holds and even then, I guess there will be pros and cons to balance....
well, the land is built into any house you look at
in our area, a minimum building lot would run $150K
i see houses bought all the time for $500K ( in town ) just for the lot.. they bulldoze the house
your land could be sold to allow you more "existing" house
or a smaller house could be built on your land.. or
you could keep your land ( which will appreciate ) and buy a house to suit your budget and postpone your retirement house
but , realistically... it sounds like your budget should be $650K no matter what you do
because one way or another you will wind up at $750 K in the endMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wow, I sure hope salaries in your area are also commensurately higher than ours.
I'm with you on all of this--lot of thinking, but I think the choices still are reduce or find something less expensive already out there.
While getting into a slightly different line of thinking, namely budgeting for resale, it is an additional question (not one anyone can answer) as to how much money to put into new construction anyhow. Our land is large, almost 4 acres, because that was a "take it all or leave the front lot" proposition and it is in our same development (i.e. same schools, easy physical move to across the street) but we already have over $150,00 0 sunk into it (paid for over the past several years which is why we didn't start sooner), and with a $750,000 end price we are already looking at trying to get $900,000 back on resale--scary if one of the messages about bust in the real estate market comes to pass!
Who was it that said, "define your words when you speak to me!"? >needs be damnedThere are "needs" as in, "I need this or I'm gonna die" that are covered by the basic hovel. Then there are "needs" as in, "I need this or it's not worth it for me to go through the effort and expense of building a house." I go by the second, and look at it as the minimum requirements. "Wants" sets the maximum. Budget/site conditions determine if even the minimum is possible.750, even 650, should allow for a very, very nice new house that would make many, many people very, very happy. Heck, the house you're building now is <500, right? And that's kinda nice for something...you know...rectangular. :) So I see the issue for our intrepid poster more as one of becoming crystal clear on priorities and then letting the design process happen the way it should, and normally does.My hypothesis on this is an overly-exhuberant client providing limitless ideas to a passive architect who doesn't have the heart to, in the words of the great ex-first lady, "just say NO". Change that dynamic and the house could come together in a way that would leave everyone feeling warm and fuzzy.
I feel for your architect; talk about "too many cooks in the kitchen!"
I couldn't read all the posts, but I'm appalled at the anti-architect sentiments of some, and I'd be wary of their advice. An architect is a professional, not a business, and as such has an ethical, fiduciary, and professional responsibility to you. There are good ones and bad ones, but to discard all architects as some here would have you do would be a mistake.
I've designed some 4000-4500 sf homes for owners that meet your criteria in Fairfield County CT, a very expensive place to build, that came in under $750k in the past 3 years. Also many 5000 sf + center hall colonials for developers that have been built between $750k-$1MM. A GC or CM who is a good manager, has good crews, and can execute quickly is equally key to a project's success as good design. This can be a stressful process, and you should be looking for team-players, not finger-pointers!
Have you considered a custom modular solution? This could be a major cost-saver -- if it's not too late and your architect can modify the plans to be "modularized." I've completed plans for my own 4000sf (5 bed, 31/2 bedroom house, with large open spaces and 2 story openings), with pricing from the modular company coming back around $200,000. Perhaps another $150,000-$200,000 of site work and "button-up" work after the modules are set. (And they say architects can't design for cost?). Again this in area where builders are quoting $250-300/sf minimum for new construction (hardwood floors, granite counters...).
Another option would be to send your architect's plans as they are to a panelized systems builder (such as Barden homes or ASBS, or whoever is represented in your area).
I hope I didn't become another cook in the kitchen, and hope this information helps.
God bless, and enjoy building your dream home!
John
john.....bs...most are not knocking architects
she said herself that the builder is projecting $185 - $200 /sf
she also said she thought the house is 4500 sf.. and she thought the architect said 5200 sf
so YOU DO THE MATH....
modular is a good suggestion.. but giving her unrealistic encouragement is not a good suggestion
she's at the wrong end of her scale if her goal is $750 K...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No need to continue to harp on the issues others have addressed...
But you mentioned you were going for the biggest mortgage you could handle - which was $750K.
After all this fooling with these pie in the sky plans, what has the increase in interest rates done to your preapproval of $750K?
I'll bet you could barely qualify for a $650K one now.
I suggest you check back with your lender...
I believe this archy has cost you more than the 12G's of fees.
Oh dear--another worry. Yes, you raise a point that I haven't explored in the past couple months (our preapproval was in May) so one more thing to get on top of when we return from our week off.
mountie.. you seem like a good sport... you oughta think about comming to TipiFest so you can return some of this abuseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the compliment, Mike.
We are former East Coasters with a particular love of New England, so would that we could come your way! I hope the weather is kind for our short holiday to Door County in Wisconsin this coming week.
Mountie (The Resilient Optimist)
"If you don't want to use the room for storage and would rather not have it accessible until it is actually finished..... When the drywallers come in, have them drywall right over the door opening."that has the makings of an Edgar Allen Poe story . . . .
Edited 7/25/2006 6:16 pm ET by draftguy
Wow! Big house!
Let me recap:
Main floor over completely unfinished full-depth basement.
LR, large enough to seat groups of 16
DR, inside space 14 x 14 wall to wall
Generous kitchen
Breakfast nook adjacent kitchen
Walk-in pantry adjacent kitchen
Laundry (presumed, it either goes here or on second floor)
Entrance foyer with closet or closets (presumed)
Bedroom with ensuite bath, sitting area, walk-in closet (all presumed, seeing as how you want it for your own when you get older)
Half bath
Primary staircase
Back staircase (the staircase to the basement goes under either this one or the other)
Hallways sufficient for passage and flow to all
Upper floor.
Room-over-garage (24x36 footprint, but can be under-roof with kneewalls and dormers, thus room area will be smaller than the 864 sf of the garage below)
Master BR w/ ensuite bath, sitting area, walk-in closet
BR#2 w/ ensuite bath
BR#3 w/ ensuite bath, bath has second door common to hallway adjacent passage to room-over-garage
Primary staircase
Back staircase
Hallways sufficient to ensure passage and flow to all
I am thinking it is going to be a challenge to get this all packed into anything under 5000 square feet, and at a figure of less than $175 per square foot.
Do the math. I get $875K, and where I live and work, $175 per gets you barely above "builder grade custom," in features, products, and finish.
Some of here, me included, might say that your wish list far exceeds your budget. But hey, what do we know?
You still didn't tell us how your architect took your program, converted it all into a design, and told you your budget could be met. I just took an educated guess at the footage.
Where I live and work, an architect can get between 5 and 18 percent of construction cost for his services. That might compute in your case to between $25K and $135K, depending on the fee structure and definition of cost. Does your budget number of $750K include this fee?
Edited 7/25/2006 2:19 pm ET by Gene_Davis
I think Gene's recap captures what Mountie said, with the exception of the library.My suggestions:
Eliminate one of the spare upper bedrooms and the bath that goes with it. College kid can stay in the guestroom (basement space could be finished with another guestroom later if necessary).Decide whether the guestroom needs to have a sitting area (just because you might use it as a master later doesn't mean it needs to have it's own sitting area).Eliminate the extra staircase.Eliminate hallways, particularly in the public space. The idea of hallway as library/gallery is a good one -- but I would have any hallway pull double duty in public space (if it has to exist at all).Eliminate the breakfast nook. Open the kitchen to the dining room or the great room (if you want the dining rooom to be a bit more formal) and put somewhat larger island or peninsula to accomodate eating in the kitchen.
The problem with hallways as library is that there are often a large number of doors. However if the design has a two story "great room" (or whatever they are calling it now) a full length balcony on the second floor makes a really nice library.
mountie... you are in an enviable position.. you have locked in the cost of the land
and are not under the gun to do this
i would like to know how much you have paid the architect to date ... how many revisions have you gone thru ?
your basic budget problem is a lack of size.. your budget isn't big enough
or .... reverse it.. start with a $650K budget and tell your architect to design it for that completion price
that will leave you 15% for a cushion.. which you WILL need
also.. your premise is that this is your retirement house.. but it doesn't sound at all like a retirement house... it sounds like an oversized house you are going to have trouble maintaining
tell us more about the design procedure and history to date..
money is only really saved in the design and spec pahase... saving money in the construction phase is only done by reducing quality.. either in materials, equipment or contractors... you can move up the food chain or down
Michigan is in a huge building bust..... you may want to hold your land and buy existing
whadda ya think of that ?
BTW... i'm 61, so i know about plans for retirement homesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ok, this isn't going to help the OP, but as a homeowner who built a new house last year in an area where land costs 2x what it takes for the house itself (the opposite ratio of what you want...) here are some of the things we did to save money and some of the places we where we spent more upfront, in ancipation of saving down the road:
Things we skimped on:
--Flooring in bedrooms (standard neutral-colored carpet) and baths (decent-quality vinyl). Easy enough to swap out 5 or 10 years down the road if we want, and saved several thousand over the alternatives (fancier carpet, tile, pergo).
--Trim. Standard builder trim throughout. I'm not crazy about it but whatever--custom trim definitely makes a house look better and we intend to put in crown, wider base, etc. at some point but basic trim is fine for now.
--Didn't finish the upstairs (Cape second story) or basement.
--Used standard plumbing fixtures, acrylic shower in second bath, shower curtains (instead of glass doors), basic lights, cultured marble vanity tops.
--Used laminate countertops and almond mid-grade appliances in kitchen (OK, that's because I'm just too cheap to pay for stainless and think the faux-pro stuff is a little silly.)
--Did all of the color painting ourselves. (Pros came in and painted everything else white.)
--Only put in a gravel driveway
--Vinyl siding. OK, this one actually kills me, but anything else would have added a lot.
--Plus, the overall cost savings--we built a small house. Footprint is 26x48, and we only finished the main floor. However, by working hard on the design we have a spacious kitchen, huge walk-in closer in the MBR and separate mudroom along with the 2 beds/2 baths on the main floor. Plus there is a 1000 sq ft on the second floor and the entire basement, so we'll have room for a family room, shop, guest rooms, additional baths, etc. down the road. By not finishing the whole thing at once I'm sure we saved at least 75K.
Things we spent on:
--Rough-ins for plumbing in basement and second story, to make it easier to finish later
--Dormers in second floor, again with intention to finish with two additional bedrooms later
--Can lights in the living room, dining room, and kitchen--because they are a PITA to install later
--Hardwood floors in the living room, dining room, and kitchen--these are the public parts of the house, they look great, and putting in hardwood later in these areas would be messy
--Oak treads and banister on stairs to second floor, because too costly to rip out and replace a carpet-grade staircase later and it is visible from the living room
--Custom 6-foot shower--we knew if we wanted it, better to have the plumbing in place from the get-go instead of trying to stretch 5 feet to 6 feet down the road
--42" maple cabinets in the kitchen--I'll swap out a laminate counter for something fancier down the road, but there's no reason to rip out 20 feet of cabinets after 5 years, so we bought what we really wanted
--9 foot ceilings in the basement, since we knew we would finish it later
Basement, rough-ins, and dormers were included in original budget. Hardwood, can lights, cabinets, and shower were change orders that added maybe $10K to the budget (if that, can't remember now). We did not skimp on basic building materials or labor, but by not insisting on everything being upgraded and perfect the day we moved in, we saved a FORTUNE. And luckily we sold our old house for more than we expected, so we were able to move ahead with some of the "future" projects already (e.g., we are finishing the basement, got custom cabinets built in the mudroom, etc.) Which is a much better situation than having a perfect house but not being able to make the payments!
Thanks for a very informative response--I think your ideas will help us and anyone else curious enough to read these exchanges. It has been very helpful getting input from "both sides" of the picture, builder and homeowner! The personal factor is the hardest for another person to understand. For example, part of my budget crunch is created by wanting a therapeutic massage air tub--but I have back problems, and that is important to me. It sounds like you gave alot of thought to your building choices and I may adopt a few of the same choices.
We're finishing up building a house in SE Michigan. Our costs (not including the land) are about 350K. We have a 2200 sq ft house built with SIP's, ground source heat pump, radiant floor heat and bamboo flooring and stone tile throughout. Those were our splurges. We have mid-grade cabinets, appliances, and plumbing fixtures (toilets and tubs) cheaper light fixtures and faucets (easiest to upgrade if we want to). Granted, we have done a lot of work ourselves, but it seems like you could get a pretty nice house for 750K.I would strongly suggest that you read the books by Susan Susanka --there are several "Not So Big House" books to choose from. It will help you think in terms of combining functions and reducing size. Choosing quality details over large spaces.I totally agree with whoever said to skip the master suite on the 2nd floor. Just do it on the first floor right away. Sitting room seems like wasted space to me. I think I understood from your comments that you will be putting the laundry room over the garage? Bad idea if mobility will be an issue. Put it in the mudroom on the first floor. Can the study area be in a finished basement? I've been in some very nice finished basements that didn't have any daylight. Lots of overhead lighting and bright colors make it very bright. If you can reduce your footprint by utilizing the basement for finished space, you can save a lot of money. You already need the basement, why not use it for more than just storage? Our's is very cosy with the radiant heat.What about combining the office and library? Large great rooms tend to be loud and echoey, so you might think about putting the tv in a smaller room so it doesn't overwhelm the great room when everyone's in it. We put our tv in a basement media room--doesn't matter if it's dark, and it doesn't suck everyone in by being in a central location.Stairways are very expensive, eliminating one would help tremendously. The kids could definitely share a bathroom upstairs, no need to spoil them with one each! Especially since you don't have that many years left with them in the house. Our kids are 5 & 8--they will share one bathroom, but the sinks are separate from the shower and toilet so they can both use it at once--if we'd had the room to make the toilet separate from the shower it would be even more multi-functional.If you're going to need a large dining room, skip the nook. Just put in casual eat-in spot in the kitchen if you don't want to eat every meal in the dining room. If the large dining room is just for the study group, how about just a section of cabinets for a buffet that could have food set on them for the study groups? Our kitchen is separated from the dining room by a bank of higher cabinets topped with a counter. Easy enough to set out dishes on that counter for people to take a snack.We have a bonus room over our 2 1/2 car garage. It's enormous. It will be my dh's workshop someday (when we've recovered enough from the build to work on it). One idea for a cheap finish floor is to just varnish the OSB or plywood. It actually looks pretty decent, especially for a "work" room.Take your time with the design phase. We got a cheap home design software program and played around with that a lot before we settled on what we wanted to draw up. I really think you should look at the Not So Big House books. Very helpful, many with detailed drawings of the featured houses so you can see how they go together. Good Luck,
Jo
Also wanted to comment on energy efficiency. We have friends with a 5000 sq ft house, and they couldn't afford to heat it last winter. They closed off over half the rooms to reduce their heating bill. Talk about wasted space! The basement was too cold to use, and the 3 kids were sharing one bedroom so they could shut down 1 of the 2 furnaces. The enormous 2 story great room sucked up most of the heat, but it certainly wasn't very comfy.It's probably worth it to look into building very energy efficient (easy to do from the beginning, not so easy to retro-fit). Simple things like orienting most of the windows to the south with overhangs (behind some nice trees to block excess heat gain in the summer) can make a big difference. Especially if you'll be living here on a fixed income. I don't think energy costs will be going down in the next 30 years....
Your cost on a per square foot basis came to about $160. I presume from what you said in your post that you functioned as your own GC and did a lot of the work yourself.
Mountie won't be the GC, but will hire one herself. Furthermore, she has 4.5 bathrooms in her house design, and two staircases. Would you say that the GC factor and the higher density of bathrooms per square foot would drive her unit cost higher? I would.
Thanks Jo,
Your ideas are helpful--wish I'd known about this discussion group before we spent so much money on a plan that most likely still in need of big changes--but also thankful for the input now. I'm going to get hold of the Susanka books to take on our 5 day holiday next week--good timing!
Please allow me to make some suggestions as to how you might be able to get better and more specific advice here.
Let's start with the use of the <enter> or <return> key to break things up into paragraphs. It makes things so much easier to digest.
See?
If you can provide this much information, it can help go a long way to getting to some possible solutions for your dilemma.
How was your budget figure of $750K established?
How big is your plan? Give us the total square footage of each of these: basement, main floor, upper floors, garage, porches and terraces under roof. Give us the number of bedrooms, bathrooms, and tell us the names of the other rooms.
Has your architect told you how much you can expect to pay for what has been designed? How has he backed up his figures?
How much of a completion do you need? In other words, will you be happy with considerable pieces of the scope not done, to be done later by you, as time and resources permit? Scope leave-outs might include all finish elements in guest bedrooms, leaving the entire basement unfinished, a bare-to-the-studs-and-sheathing garage interior, landscaping, etc. Be specific as to your potential leave-outs, and maybe some of us can price them to tell you how much you'll save.
Does your architect plan to provide a full-service package? In other words, will he or she manage the bidding and contracting jobs, and then manage construction by performing periodic inspections to see that work is being done to expectations of quality, that plans and specs are being followed, that correct materials are being used, etc.?
Does the architect recommend a few quality builders with whom he or she has worked in the past? Have you visited houses to see examples of their work, queried them as to levels of price and cost, etc.? I hate to use "price per square foot," because it is so meaningless in custom work, but do you think that your present design is landing correctly into your target?
What do you mean when you say you want your GC to be a "dutch uncle?" Are you looking for a builder who will reign you in from making foolish and costly decisions?
How much of your budget of $750K is allocated to the fee for the architect?
Is your architect willing to fix that fee and then work at getting a design and scope, and then a lump-sum fixed-price bid from a qualified GC for that exact design and scope, that will guarantee your getting the home you want for the $750K you intend to spend, inclusive of his fee?
If you think you want to go down the "we'll make the decisions for all the choices as we go" road, because they just seem too daunting at this time, you can probably throw your budget out the window.
Yes, I see your point on the use of paragraphs!
I like your questions, and I think I will defer a complete reply until after this afternoon's meeting, since I might have a better feel for the answers.
Thanks
We should all be so lucky to have this problem.
FHB had an article a few months ago about building a house for $50/sq foot, I think by Betsy Petit of Building Science corp. buildingscience.com . You can probably find some stuff on their site.
Look at the book "The not so big house" - you probably have more sq ft than you need. You read the book and realize that almost no one uses their dining room, so why have one?
Don't skimp on plumbing, insulation, or electrical. Making the roof desing simple makes it easier to build and more durable.
Best of luck.
I must admit that I was taken aback by the resulting square footage--I think the architect is around 5200 while I thought we were looking at 4500 (yes, still quite a luxury if it comes to pass). Thanks for the suggestions and I'll try to find that site.
i haven't seen where your at,but pack your bags come to the midwest,and if you build a 750k house you will be in the top 1%.the other day the paper had a article that there was 25 houses out of almost a 100,000 here in wichita ks that were worth a million bucks!it boggles my mind that at 750k you can't have every doo dad in a 5000 sf house that you can dream up!larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Hi and part of my sentiments exactly, here in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Our meeting yesterday took the architect's plan of about 5300 square feet coming out at $911,000 (out of some computerized program). Obviously we have either a big problem to solve, or a nonstarter, but part of my exploration here is to get a handle on this, because as you say, it seems counter-intuitive.
Game plan: have architect make some cost-saving changes per many of the ideas here being discussed and let builder price it out and give us a real number. If it works, well on to the bank for a very large mortgage.
At our meeting yesterday, we offered up to only stub the full bathroom on the first floor, to defer moldings, to defer or totally omit many built-ins, to paint the library rather than stain the shelving. And, of course, the basement will remain unfinished. We also removed some internal doors (French doors between the Great Room and Kitchen/Nook--nice, sound proofing, view blocking, but maybe something to add later if those become real problems)
By the way, the reason for the second staircase also going to the basement was to permit finishing it in the future, since such a straight shot down from the garage (for this second stairs to the basement) would permit materials to enter, while the primary staircase is U-shaped and would involve trekking materials through the formal areas and trying to angle drywall, etc around tricky curves.
If it doesn't (don't hold our breath), must figure out our plans B,C,D etc.
Still holding onto that back staircase, eh? It's your money.
Early this year, we completed a copy of this house for a client. The photo shows the prototype . . . the one we did is identical except for colors.
View Image
You can view photos of the place, inside and out, by going here and following links: http://www.healthyhomeplans.com/home_plans/home_plan_detail.php?plan_id=110
One of the inside shots shows the staircase, which is lined with bookshelves, and is U-shaped. Everything that needed to go upstairs during construction went up those stairs, except for all the drywall and hardwood trim stock, which went in through upper floor windows. It is common to go through windows for big stuff like this, and we have slung bathtubs and shower units through them as well.
The purchased plan set, involving no architect, no engineer, nothing other than a phone call with a credit card out, cost the client about $2300. How does that compare to your fees?
This one came in at about $240 per square foot, for the 2,985 sf of living space above the unfinished basement.
If your $750K ceiling is absolute, you had better tell that archy that you need to get under 3,750 sf. I would tell him I had to have 3,500.
Hi Gene,
Nice house and nice ideas, and (gulp) good advice. No, not wedded to the second staircase---just left in for the moment, but to be honest, in full expectation of lots more work, so I didn't begin to make all the possible changes. In fact, there may be so many that a totally new plan could be the best thing.
For those interested: actual sf on plan came to 5395 and our architect bill around $12,000 (far less than any Internet advertised plan) But, I wouldn't be having these conversations if I weren't open to all suggestions, including a complete change of approach.
Hopefully there is some silver lining to our losses in time and money! I'm still going through that deflation period ( of my spirits--not the cost) after the meeting. It really helped my perspective knowing there were avenues of solution.
Can I ask you and anyone else reading this: what are the best Internet sites to search for our kind of house?
one thing you have to be able to do is convert multi-story homes to single story homes so you can compare sf cost estimates
my own rule of thumb is
first floor = 100%
2d floor = 50%
garage / covered porch = 25%
so a 40 x32 first fl = 1280 sf
with a 40 x 24 2d fl = 960 x.5 = 480 sf
and a 3 car 24x36 garage = 864 x.25 = 216 sf
with 40 x 8' civered front porch = 320 x .25 = 80 sf
all of those add up to 2056 sf of equivelent 1st floor space
@ $200 /sf ... that house would cost $411K plus any extraordinary site work
if you start at your budget figure and work backwards : $650k / $200 sf =
3250 first floor sf
cut up houses cost more.. amenities like expensive kitchens ccost more.. every bath starts at $10K
finished staircases can run $6k - $20k
A/C can add $10K - $20K depending on size of house, insulation values , and cooling load
your house is too big...too big... too big
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I answered your earlier message before reading this one. Now this is some very useful insights on how the calculations are done. How would a basement be calculated if we were to try to create a garden or walkout basement (that will add cost of course) and put some of the rooms down there, thus reducing the first and second floor footprints and the roof size?
I am not sure what "your kind of house" might be, but presumably by now, you have learned it needs to be smaller than the one your "architect" cooked up.
Keep thinking of this kind of unit price . . . $200 per square foot. That means if your budget is firm, you must, repeat must, stay under 3750 sf. Target 3500, then start looking there.
The site I linked you to showing the Sarah Susanka plan has some, and this place does also http://www.architecturalhouseplans.com/
Go to the library and check out "A Pattern Language," and while you are there, check out all of Ms Susanka's books.
THANKS!!