Has anyone else seen this?
Saw a sign on a job site for it so I guess they are using it? Its a franchise I’m guessing. Basic project management billed as the customer saving money. Hmmm?
I am not against it aside from the fact the people you hire at least in my area seem to have no real license or certification which in Florida is a bit of a problem.
Mike
Join some of the most experienced and recognized building professionals for two days of presentations, panel discussions, networking, and more.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
IIRC, there have been several threads on this subject, but I can't seem to pull up the one I remember best. Try searching Help-U-Build, or U-Build-It, or anything related sounding.
Some of these companies have even joined in, posting on the forum and explaining how they operate.
Best I remember, the bottom line is, if you have tons of time to invest, and are willing to put up with a lot of grief and headaches, and are willing to roll the dice on a big gamble, you might save money (if you count your own time as "free") by being your own contractor, while these help-you-build type businesses will hold your hand, verbally walk you through the process, and recommend sub's - for a fee.
-----
edited to add: I think this is the one I recall 53698.1
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 7/15/2008 9:20 am by Huck
I see two:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53698.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53790.1jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Interesting. I just finished building my own house (the third one I've built in 20 years) and, as said above, it IS a full time job.
I think significant money can be saved but, as with most things in life, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
Runnerguy
re: everyone would be doing it
and from the web site, you ..."helped design and build yourself"..
I continue to be (after 5 decades even) amazed that at least 50% of the population does not DIY their own house. Sometimes unfathomable to me that 99% of folks are to timid, lazy, or stupid to build a house. Grandpa did, Pop did most, brother did, some uncles did, BIL did not, 12 YO Grand-daughter has already talked about it. Did mine as 2nd job over 3 years.
County building departments do all they can nowadays to discourage anyone of course, but still?? In own case, another house now would cost more in permit fees, etc. than the materials, with ignorant plan and bldg inspectors just going by some lawyers protocol to protect them from lawsuit while collecting extortion cash!
folks sometimes tell me they built their own house - what they are really saying is that they picked out the floor plan, geez.
As far as 'significant money', savings in this area would still be in the 60% or greater region even with the governments take.
Sometimes unfathomable to me that 99% of folks are to timid, lazy, or stupid to build a house.
Maybe they just don't have the time or they aren't physically able, or maybe they're making enough money at their day job that they're smart enough to pay someone else to do the work. I know you're the epitome of do-it-yourselfness (and I've done the vast majority of the work on my house myself as well) but that's kind of a broad brush you're painting with right there.
aren't physically able -- DW considers herself now physically unable to build another house
Agree with that part, I did mean 99% of those physically able, which is probably an exageration also.
On further contemplation, there are probably 20% who consider it "beneath their 'dignity'" to do manual labor (but I'll lump many of those in with timid and lazy with a few of them stupid), and 2% so rich they make more doing other stuff.
Would also agree that the developed world economy would be TOTALLY different if even 20% of the population were like many on BT.
Here's what I was thinking: doing it yourself makes sense if you have the time, the skills and tools, and the desire. As an example, I shingled several roofs when I was younger, and they came out pretty good, too. These days I still have the skills and tools, but the other two not so much.
Mainly, though, I think about what my time is worth and it makes more financial sense to hire a roofer to do the work instead. They can come in with a crew and bang it out in a couple days, where it would take me weeks to do it myself in my spare time. If I figure all that labor at what I normally bill my time out during the work day, I'm money ahead if I put in some extra hours at the office instead. Plus, I get a warrantee.
And besides, if everyone built their own houses there'd be a lot of people here out of a job. :)
When I worked for myslef I owned a rather nice piece of land that we planned to build on.
Every time I did the math, and FACTORED IN TIME AWAY FROM MY WORK/BUSINESS..........I wouldn't have saved a single dime by building my own home.
In my current situation? I don't have the free time to do it. Maybe a 1600sqft ranch. Not the home I currently live in or would build for myself.
The only exception to that is with my impending singleness...........I may build a 600 sqft cabin to live in while I decide what to do next.
I am just finishing month 10 of my first owner-built house. I am a not in the construction trade whatsoever, with a demanding job, so trying to find time to "manage" the build I found to be extremely difficult and stressful. On top of that, trying to "de-stress" my wife, well, that was a different fight altogether.
The one major thing I found, is b/c you are a DIY home-builder, I find that you don't get the respect from the "contractors" that you should. If I was a home-builder who built a bunch of homes each year, the contractors would do better work, more on time with less "extras".
I live in an area where the recent economic problems are hitting us pretty bad, so I find that everyone tried to milk me for every type of extra there could be. When I pushed back, I would only get more problems, so I often just settled for an amount for the extras, just so they would finish up so I can get someone else in there to keep the project moving.
I built a 2,600 ft2, 2-storey and I figure I did save quite a bit of money. I found it quite frustrating dealing with the trades and quite often I only found the issues once the people were long gone. I only found issues with my framer once my brick guy showed up and told me it was done properly for the brick work we wanted in certain areas. Now I found I have water problems on the side of my house b/c there isn't enouch downspouts and things the eaves are slanted to the wrong side of the house, etc, etc, etc. I have a storey for every piece of material, trade, step in the entire build of my house.
The other frustrating part was when I had to fix other professionals work. I can't tell you how many nights I spent ripping out stuff the framer messed up, going around and taping the ducts for the HVAC, etc. It's very, very frustrating.
Would I do it again - absolutely not. However, if I did, I would do things quite differently. I found that I when I tried to be friendly and nice to the trades, they quite often took this as being weak and that's when the "extras" started flying. I would definately deal with this more sternly in my next house. Again, the only leverage you have as a home-owner / builder is the $$$. Yes, reputation is important, but they know that if I am pissed about their work, it's not a huge deal to them b/c I'm not building 30 houses / year. Keep in mind, not all the contractors I hired were like this, but I think too many were. I never accepted the lowest quote and I did my homework on them. I just found that me not being a contractor made the build more difficult.
Sorry for the long-winded message / venting. Just wanted to pass along my experiences.
I was bidding a job once and asked my wife to drop off a set of plans for a price on plumbing and hot water baseboard heat.
The plumbing contractor never put 2 and 2 together. He never linked our conversation on the phone with the plans dropped off by some woman in a german sports car.
His price was TWICE his normal average and when my wife called to ask about it he told her that's what it was worth and noone else would do it for less.
When I called he put 2 and 2 together and started back peddeling.
Too late.
grandchat.
Thanks for sharing, fear of just that is why I wound up building my own house.. Myself without the aide of contractors and with the use of unskilled workers who I taught what to do on my time..
NO I'd never built a house and what's worse I didn't build anything like the norm. (my walls are 16+ inches thick, double timber framed and the whole house is built with sawmill wood) In addition I used ICF's and SIP's before they were really accepted in this neck of the woods..
In addition I too had a high pressure full time+ job and a wife who needed constant reassurance.
Early estimates by timber framers gave me a budget to expect of over 1 million 700 thousand dollars higher than I wound up doing it for.. So yes I saved money.
Would I do it again? I can't, at age 60 I can no longer do the same things that I could when I started nearly 8 years ago..
I can't, at age 60 I can no longer do the same things that I could ... yeah, tell me about it.
I'm a bit older than you but at times can actually do more now - took some of your advice and bought machines as you have suggested, to do the heavy parts! Still looking for a bigger telehandler though than just a 'knda one' cobbled onto backhoe.
All: Good DIY often means more tools than most lower end full time contractors.
Amen to that! Junkhound.
The one advantage I had when I built my own place was contact with countless contractors. I soon learn what tools and equipment were good and durable and choose them without regard to brand or "color" (that and having my own new telehandler on site)
I'll grant you a significant portion of my budget went to the purchase of tools and equipment but when finished I'll put the stuff on craigslist and get about 1/2 of what I paid for them back.
After all, they've been well behaved, used to build only one home and treated well <grin>
Nice post Grandchat. I posted earlier in this thread and agree with much of what you say.
The "being nice or not so nice" thing is certainly true but it probably depends on the sub. Some respond well to "not so nice" while others just put you at the bottom of the list.
And I too got tired of fixing and cleaning up other peoples messes. Both those having to do with their trade and otherwise. When the house got to the finishing stages, despite my best efforts (signs up, verbal warnings, etc) I could never stop dirt from being tracked in the house.
Runnerguy
Don't be under the illusion that everything is easy for a full time general contractor. The biggest difference between a pro and homeowner builder is that the pro has a stable of subs with whom he has a relationship built up after a number of years. What you don't see is the subs that didn't make the cut. Those subs did one job for the GC and were unsatisfactory, either in the quality of their work or in their business practices.
Even with the best subs there are plenty of problems but these problems can be solved with the application of money. You said that you saved plenty of money. This is something that I do not try to do. If I save money when the subs give a good price, it is because I protect my subs from risk. If there is a problem I am willing to pay more to have it taken care of. Since I want to keep doing this for a living, I have to charge for this. That is the money that you saved by building your house. You earned it but don't think that I don't also.
Schelling
Good point..
Thru a series of trail and error you've been able to find good subs then because you continue to offer them an income oppertuneity you are able to retain their loyalty and diligence..
In a perfect world we wouldn't need that service but we all know that it is a less than perfect world..
One final point.. you do something else. You provide confidense..
People get scared of the unknown and it's easy for them to give way to those fears simply because everything is unknown to so many people.
I'll bet a word to a frightened wife said with confidence has helped a great deal on countless occasions..
I doubt I saved much money acting as owner builder over what a GC could do building to minimum code and standard practice but I got things built the way I wanted. I did save money on the tradework I did myself but that is trading time for money, more time than the trade would have taken.
Good points. I saved a lot of money on my own house by doing many of the jobs that I would normally sub out. I did this because I didn't have the money to pay for the work and because I wanted to learn more about the work that I usually pay to have someone else do. In my case it was well worth it. It took me longer and the work was not as good as my subs but I have been happy with the result for 25 years and what I learned has been priceless.
Your story clearly shows why I've always charged 20-30% more to frame for homeowners. It wasn't a case of me "ripping them off" but more a case of me anticipating the additional problems, time delays, consultation time, etc that I knew would inevitably occur.The thing that you don't know, Granchat, is that newbie builders suffer the same exact thing that you did. The key to a smooth building process is finding the right type of contractors and developing long term relationships with them if they build with the same mindset that you do. Since you only do it once, you don't get to weed out the bad apples and make your next attempt better. Builders do and after five or ten houses, they are rolling along with a much better process and trades that work well together. I'm going to guess that your plans and specifications were marginal and your written agreements weren't much better. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
I'm not sure what you mean by "plans and specs were marginal, but I do agree on the second point on written agreements. The issues I had with the framer were ones I don't think I shouldn't have to "specify" since it's right in the plans. This is where I had some problems - if it's in the plans, then do it.
All of you have brought up a very good point about building a long-term relationship with the subs and I couldn't agree more. Although I do love working on my house, I don't think I'll building GC'ing another house for quite some time.
The plans are the plans but the devil is in the details. For instance, here in Austin, the tile guys NEVER put a drain pan in. The plumber doesn't do it either. We found out the hard way that this is a special third party sub contract agreement. I call that a "rookie builder" mistake and take my lumps. I'll know better the next time to write that into someone's specifications if I don't want to separate the job.Another area that might get dicey is the flashings? Who installs them? the Carpenter, the stucco guy? Someone else? What about caulking? Is that the painters concern or a separate subcontract?What about the foundation? Do I need separate contracts to dig it, prep it and pour it? Or does one line in the spec sheet state "foundation contractor is repsonsible for all aspects of installing the foundation including excavation, re-steel, concrete (materials and labor), regrading and all foundation hardware specified in the engineering drawings.That line still doesn't explain to what degree the regrading is. Does the foundation guy have to haul away dirt or bring some in to bring the grade up to the levels shown on the plans?Remember, the devil is in the details. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think you're seeing a broadening of horizons for most people. I'm of the same mindset, I'm not afraid to tackle anything, about the only thing I won't do is AC work, only because I don't have the tools and time to learn right now.If you go back a generation or so, most people could swing a hammer, cut a board, and manage general construction. Now, back then, a lot of people knew how to build a house. A modern house, with a lot more "features" (wiring, phone, plumbing, hvac) can seem rather daunting for someone who sits at a desk all day working on spreadsheets. 100 years ago, a guy could go to the sawmill, and get a load of lumber, a bucket of nails from the general store, and have a good start on a house by the end of the day.Now, with permits, insurance, financing, etc, the multitude of codes, building science, it is a lot easier for most people to pay someone else for the headaches.Just wait until society collapses, and we'll all be living warm and cozy providing for ourselves, while those other guys are helpless!
In some areas, it's much cheaper to hire the labor pool to build for you while you flip burgers at Mickey D's. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Mc Donalds guys earn $7.00 an hour, local carpenters are earning $25 and hour or so.
Take taxes out of your wages and pay taxes on the carpenter plus all other costs etc.. and it's easy to add another 30 to 60% swing to those numbers.. that means the Mc Donald guy needs to work six times as many hours as the carpenter.
For that equation to work The Carpenter needs to be at least 6 times more productive than the McDonalds guy.
Now some CEO or wealthy big shot might be able to earn multiples of the cost of a carpenter and then it makes sense.. However that person will never know if things were done the way he'd like them done nor will he know how to do repairs or mainintance. Thus his income will forever have to be multiples of the average handyman.
In a sense that makes him a slave to the handyman.. Since he will forever need his services or be willing to run the risks of multiple handymen with varing degrees of honesty and ability.
Mc Donalds guys earn $7.00 an hour, local carpenters are earning $25 and hour or so
Here, carpenters are getting $10/hr, and their work is sporadic at best. Put that up against a steady $8/hr (minimum wage in Calif.), and they come out on the bottom.
I think Blue's comment said "in some areas", and was probably mostly tongue-in-cheek, but carried a lot of truth nonetheless.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 7/27/2008 10:30 pm by Huck
Huck,
Well Blue is in Texas and I assumed that he is refering to illegals who apparently are willing to work for less than minimum wages in some places.. (I found no examples of that here in Minnesota)
That's why I said local and not national..
And you don't pay taxes on the "income" you got from doing your own work and you don't pay interest on money borrowed for labor.
I fully agree with you on the idea of diy however thank god everyone else dosent do it or i would have no work
my home when i bought it i 73 was a former 2 room stone school house being used as a barn containg at least 200 rabbits
the building is 30 x 60 2 storey now with 15 rooms (incl 4 bathrooms )
having no money so to speak i did all the work myself by going on unimployment ins for 1 year and working part time on it for years after
during the iniatal years i started up a construction business locally due to demand for my ability locally ( a very rural rundown area at the time ) i was the first and last home home at the crossroads in this hamlet
1n 78 we bought the 40 acres next door and subsequentally sub divided it into 40 lots ( http://www.foxfireridge.com ) which we are still selling lots off of
to cover our but we also acquired 32 acres accross the road in case our sudivision worked out ok & if it dident i would sell it as a proposed subdivision
during this time frame we bought another former schoolin the next town and renovated it and sold it for a decent proffit
my wife wortking in the federal govt was a big help keeping the home front going even though she has had little envolment on the physical side of things bt she has always done the books and incometax for the businesses and the personal ones
we have always felt it cost to much to pay others to do thigs we could do our selves
and many times much better because we have a personal intrest in the results
currently i am working on a plastic deck for a customer that is living in a 900 sq ft home i renovated over the years
the multy level deck with trex floor and aluminum railings including glass inserts is at nearly 22,000 and we havent got to the natural stone walkways or seating on the deck yet
the home owner is newally retired (accountant ) and is my current helper & go for
being a DIY can lead to a lot of things some times , eventhough its not always peaches and cream if the above appears that way ;.)
I think that it is not easy to get the cash for the land, the permits, the utility connections, the materials and whatever else is needed while holding down a job and paying rent or making mortgage payments and utilities and raising a family and paying for health care and so on.
Otherwise, many more people would be doing it. They are not that dumb. They just don't have the resources.
Those for whom money is no problem are probably so focused on money-making and paying others to build for them that they would never consider doing it themselves, assuming they had the skills and knowledge. After all, why should they?
I think it is a creative, skilled person who is not financially on top of the heap who dreams of building their own home. That person has the confidence to try and works and waits until the opportunity comes. An inheritance or a sweet land deal might make the difference.
As a person who started out with basically nothing and who is approaching 60, I can say that I have been maneuvering myself into a position to build my best home for years. When I have finished renovating this one, it will be paid for and I have all the tools and knowledge and experience now to build what I want the way I want.
If I could just figure out for sure just where I want to build the home...
The trouble is that the older I get, and the more I know about where I want to end up (with the wife's approval, of course), the more complex the decision becomes.
At this point, I know for sure that I will have to move a lot of stuff and a lot of good tools to a new location. I have a camper to live in. I still have to build a shop before building the house.
Hopefully, I won't die before this happens. I don't want to be a Moses looking over the mountaintop at the promised land.
On the other hand, maybe the true meaning of happiness is to be found in the goal and the preparation. Maybe, if I had the chance to apply all of my crazy ideas to a new structure, I would end up making a Frank Lloyd Wright-like piece of art that looks great when built but tends to have major flaws.
I think that it is not easy to get the cash for the land, the permits, the utility connections, the materials and whatever else is needed while holding down a job and paying rent or making mortgage payments and utilities and raising a family and paying for health care and so on.
Otherwise, many more people would be doing it. They are not that dumb. They just don't have the resources.
You're correct for first-time owners, but after that it's a choice. Not to minimize the difficulties, but it doesn't take all that much equity to get a start.
We sold our first place, made a tiny downpayment on land, reserving the large majority of our capital for material and some labor. Ran out of money a couple of times and had to temporarily stop construction. Fast it wasn't. The coop wanted $21k to bring in an electric line, which wasn't in the budget. Just another hurdle to overcome.
I was running a cabinet shop for an upscale builder when we started. Didn't work. Unemployment was necessary for me to build, which obviously added to the financial strain. But you get to the basic questions: How much do you want it? What are you willing to give up to get it?
Starting here, I had almost no idea what I was getting into. Read a lot but no experience. Mistakes happen, fortunately none that were impossibly expensive. I also received an amazing amount of bad advice from those who should have been experts. Reading what I could find saved my butt. As would a forum like BT.
If you and dw are on the same page, it would appear you already have everything you need. Other than the most difficult thing.... the first step. BTW, we spent more than a few months land-shopping a rather large area.
About your age, we've been in our place 14 yrs. We're comfortable and love the land, but there's a replacement house started. Due to my land purchase I'm able to walk into a lender and leave with more money than I'd care to repay. Our next house won't be finished quickly either, but it too will be debt-free.
While I still sail on a friend's boat. Choices...
Good luck with yours.PAHS works. Bury it.
VaTom
I couldn't agree with you more..
It's about choices..
I started this place with a modest budget and little time. Today working on this place has helped me keep my sanity while the economy basically drove me out of a job.
Instead of feeling sorry for myself I wonder which board I should use on that door I'm making and spend what time I'm not looking for work creating something for my own dream house...
In a sense I'm wealthy, I have thousands of board feet of wood stacked up ready to be used in creative ways to build the house of my dreams.. I have the equipment and can figure out how to achieve what I want. Isn't that a good definition of wealth?
Isn't that a good definition of wealth?
Rhetorical question?
If not, there's another wealth factor, freedom from financial concern. Pretty sure you're somewhat lacking there.
A choice: cash out your place and move one state west. Your equity probably could carry you forever. Not a choice you'd like? No problem, that's what choices are about: good and not-so-good.
We all have choices. Some more difficult than others.
Including "build by owner". Which I'm slow to recommend. PAHS works. Bury it.
VaTom
Why should a person give up something they've worked their whole life to achieve simply to have a number in a bank account?
I could move a lot of places (not simply west) and live cheaper than I live now, however I would also earn less than I have so how would I gain?
I'm comfortable where I am. I built this home according to my dream. I'm current on all payments even though it's been 11 months since I last earned a income, and I have sufficient cash and equities to sustain myself for at least another year and a half.The home will be completely paid off before I retire. In the meantime I can use those payments as deductions while I enjoy a rate of appreciation that has turned a $107,000 investment into a multimillion dollar asset.
However to get back to the thrust of this conversation. You built your own home.. Are you that superior to so many others?
I too built my own home with no prior experiance and at an age when most men my age are taking up golf or bridge or other sedentary pursuits. I'm sure you've seen pictures of it.
Build by owner? I found no need for their services neither did you from your story. Some won't but if it means the differance between owning and home or renting an apartment I would eagerly encourage others to do it..
I could move a lot of places (not simply west) and live cheaper than I live now, .....
I'd have to move East <G>
However to get back to the thrust of this conversation. You built your own home.. Are you that superior to so many others?
An interesting comment on superiority. It took DW 20 years to convince me that I apparently have more mechanical talent than most, I always assumed most people were just plain lazy both physically and about research (e.g. going to a spectator sport vs. doing something constructive or visiting the library). Frenchy, you and Tom, and 90% of others on BT, are assuredly superior mechanically -- gotta wonder about your political astuteness though in getting the big BAN < big G>.
Junkhound,
Outside issues were affecting me at the time. I was both angery and proud. (isn't that often the case?) Part of me knew at the time not to go to that extreme rhetoric question I posted but anger prevented me from retracting it..
They are not that dumb. They just don't have the resources..
Kinda an oxymoron there, if not dumb, then no excuse except laziness? The only resources I had were mine and DW's willingness to work.
Caveat - I'm assuming in that statement a 'young' (under 30) person's energy -- gotta admit that now (at well over 60 YO) the permit and fee proceedures for a one-of-a-kind structure and the bureaucratic frustration in King Co. WA are more work (and cost) than the actual building! Kinda like a conspiracy to prevent DIY???
junkhound,
Fees that expensive huh? Wow, I paid a pretty nominal fee to build my place. I think it was 3% of the cost of the materials and any labor I hired..
That was in a community where million dollar homes are considered as starter homes..
I will fully admit that the process of getting a building permit suxed the big one.. It basically took me 21 years and something like 45 trips to city hall, council meetings, and committee meetings.
As for cost savings. Talking with timberframing companies gave me a rough guildline bid of over 2 million dollars. I have spent around $300,000 and have all of the material required to finish it. (oh, I might be short a few gallons of paint etc.) The exterior is completely done (except I need a porch light yet but I'm looking for something really special) {I've given up on the idea of using a Porsche back up light as a sort of little joke, not because I can't get one cheap but because it wouldn't really look right}
My neighbor is GC ing his new house. He's always complaining how the subs don't do it right.
I wonder why? He hired them.
Edited 7/15/2008 7:21 pm ET by popawheelie
popawheelie,
Great point, I always assumed do-it-yourself meant just that.. not writting a check and paying someone else to do it..
Most people bend the facts when it comes to their accomplishments and failures.
Right now I'm landscaping the front yard. The scope of it was to big for me to put together and I wanted it right so I hired a landscape designer for a plan.
When people ask me what I'm doing I'm pretty open with giving credit for the plan to the designer. I show them the plan and give her credit.
But I'm the one that hired her and will build the yard to the plan (mostly).
But when it is done and people comment on what a lovely yard it is I wonder if my wife will say my husband did it or she will say we did it.
When things turn out nice all sorts of people are more than willing to take credit in part or in full.
They might not have lifted a finger but listen for them to use we and our in their sentences.
Most people just pay for things to be done and they aren't even very good at that.
popawheelie
I don't know, I guess I'm just a cheapskate. I did nearly everything thus far on my home myself. From design (sketches done on a sheet of yellow legal paper seemed to satisfy my building inspector) (no I didn't keep one for myself since it all came out of my head anyway)
To purchasing materials, preparing materials for use, and putting them up in place.. I did take various non construction people, a theatre lighting designer, a math teacher, a minister, and a press operator, teach them what I wanted and had them help me.. (oops I forgot my brief experiance with the drug addict)
I knew I couldn't ask experianced construction workers to help because of the bizarre way I built this house.. the walls are over 16 inches thick and it's a hybred between a timberframe and a post and beam in that everything is morticed and tenioned etc. but also lag bolted together. (my choice was either that or get an engineer to approve the plans)
I've helped others do much of the work on their home themselves but to my knowledge I've gone the furthist down the road to complete build it yourself..
A good friend of mine was the sales rep for Ryan Homes in Pittsburgh and he sold the "owner builder program" where the homeowner bought the lumber and trim package and plans and they got a 2" thick binder on how to build their home.
Even had a list of the preferred contractors per phase.
It took a lot of time investment from the owner but most of the projects went well.
He was the sales rep, technical rep, etc so he got every phone call thru the process.
It was profitable enough that he could really invest the time with the clients so long as they listened to him.
Some of them would go their own path and struggle.
Unless a company has a really good support system, it can be doom for the owner.
We design houses for owner builders and provide limited support while they build. In general the calls stop once they get their rough-in inspections. I used to be friends with a guy who had a U-build-it franchise and he said the same thing, they're nervous about the cost estimate and the banks make them sweat but once they're dried in and past the framing inspection they blunder on through. It was profitable for him but I'm no longer friends with him due to ethical mis-alignment. (ie. I think he's a bit of a crook) I've contracted a few houses for folks who wanted to do their own trim or paint. On the trim they absolutely did not save any money over hiring it out and got second rate work. The paint they got second rate and incomplete work but at least saved money. A couple of our owner-builder projects have come out stellar except for the schedule. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
ShelterNerd-If you are designing a house for an owner-builder are you scaling back the level of detail and complexity to account for the lack of experience, and are the designs as customized to the site as you would do if your team would be building it?I'd love to see Joe DIY when he first sees the plans for a barrel vault ceiling or a hand-carved soapstone fireplace (and I am a Joe DIY!)Also, do you recommend your subs to owner-builders, or are you reluctant to do that to your subs?Thx,-j
I do tailor those plans to the skill of the builder but that also means that we tailor to their interests and many of these are way beyond code. This one, http://www.frogpondfarm.org/frogPond.html, has already put more electricity into the grid that it took (on-site) to build it. I've lead them to my subs often esp. my HVAC sub because it makes it easy to say "just do it the way Michael has you do it" and they know what page to be on. A lot of these guys want radiant floors and timber frame elements and beyond belief energy efficiency. so we are customizing but not necessarily dumbing them down. And curved wood ceilings and hand carved soapstone fireplaces are really not all that hard anyway. Just a little more time consuming is all. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
ShelterNerd
I agree with you about the difficulties of certain tasks. Working in the round is outside the normal but can be achieved by determined amatures.. I've done so. I've seen it done by others.. in fact on occasion this very magazine has displayed such work..
I have done 3 projects at my house in Florida "owner builder". The driveway was a no brainer just some DOT beauracracy, the swimming pool required me to submit some very detailed plans but I pretty much just copied a plan from a pool company.
The addition on the house was more complicated. First you need a septic inspection and certification. Then zoning, then I needed engineered, stamped plans. The subs you have to list on the permit are roof, plumbing, electrical, aluminum and HVAC if you are not doing that work yourself. You are still responsible for making sure everyone working on your job has insurance or you have to provide it. Taxes are another issue. Theoretically you need to collect FICA and unemployment, issuing a 1099 for any labor that is not a licensed company.
I used all licensed trades so that was not a problem for me and if they didn't report the cash I paid them that is between them and the IRS.
Fortunately we knew a lot of people so getting good trades wasn't a problem.
Other than getting my plans in a condition (engineering) they were happy with, Lee County was not bad at all to work with.
where abouts are you in Lee County i used to have a winter home in Lehigh Acres
Estero
I used "Owner Builder Network" to build mine. My wife and I agree that it was a whole lot of work, but the end result is more than worth it.
The biggest advantage for us is that we got exactly the house we wanted. And, we love the really low utility bills!