Ok, I started a Thread a month or so ago about building a business since then I have read, “The E-myth Contractor” and of course realized that I am a carpenter who had an entrepreneurial fit. Technically I was a manager who had a tradesmen fit who then had an entrepreneurial fit.
Next Book please?
Additionally while I have your attention I’ve thought of three specific problems I’ve encountered in the last month, I probably wouldn’t have even recognized them as problems a month ago but I am hoping for input….
1st Problem Sub-contractor selling on my job- Hired a multi-trade friend to help spackle on a job. The project has been time and materials but I recommended him for the spackling because he pretty decent at it. Since then HO has asked sub to help with trim work and the sub has taken HO to see some stonework he did in the past. Basically I feel this guy is using my customer as a lead. Thoughts or suggestions around this problem?
2nd In the process of selling a kitchen Had a custom cabinet guy and a local lumber yard get between me and the customer by offering the customer the price directly. I brought the customer both places and literally couldn’t believe it. I have enough pull to steer this customer to a third sales shop but I want to avoid this in the future. Suggestions?
3rd I think I wasted 5 hours last Saturday doing an estimate. I really wanted to present an offer to plan a proposal for some money but couldn’t find the wording or the necessary mental state for that. Again Suggestions?
Finally Thanks again everybody for all the great thoughts.
Tim
Replies
Tim, you're cutting your teeth fast!
Problem:
#1) you didn't have clear company policies established between your sub-contractor prior to him starting. Create a manual that outliines all subs duties, expectations, when you'll pay, service requrements, etc. In that manual, you'll have the ability to explain the bigger goal of your company to grow using the subcontrator "partners". Keep the message positive and talk about how a positive cohesive approach serves the clients interests, which translates into refferals and more work for everyone.
2)You obviously didn't establish your relationship with your suppliers beforehand and they obviously don't have enough business savvy to understand their faux paux. I had that happen to me once. Luckily I was offering the clients alternative proposals: a fixed bid or a cost plus. If they wanted the 60% discount for the cabinets, they'd have to go with the cost plus deal. That's what they chose. I learned my lesson.
I'm curious, were you standing there with your client?
3)Finding the right words is not an accidental thing. Run over to the "sales presentation" thread right now and start taking notes. Tweak all the advice to fit your business model. After writing your presentation down, start practicing it. In the process of practicing it, you should be leading up to the "right words" using questions. YOu will be asking questions in a way that allows you to dictate the answer. After the proper affirmations are made to your leading questions, you will have the proper words to "fix" the problem.
Back to you: What kind of project was it that you wasted 5 hours on? I'm just trying to get handle on what I would do in your same situation.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Your answer to number one feels like a home run blue. I'm on it.
The project I wasted five hours on was a $30000+ garage and porch deal. There was a contractor on site already installing the modular. HO has been dissatisfied with the perfomance but that wasn't apparent till we met.
There are/were clear performance issues with the on site contractor.
I gave her a price becuase I want more jobs like that. New construction, my guy can frame walls and install siding, he has issues when it comes to repair and remodeling but I can grow with him if the projects I land are within his area. So I'm out $15.00 in gas to view the site and meet with the client. Plus 4+ hours to do the estimate, 2hours to view the site and travel there and back(on the previous Saturday). With a 9 month old a 9 year old and a 13 year old that time is priceless.
Believe me that I'm finding your Journey to more than informative. Thanks for laying it out there.
I'm curious, were you standing there with your client?
Yes, I was standing right there both times. The lumber yard cabinet person has contacted my customer twice with questions regaurding the design even though my number is on the paper work
T,
I think you did not take charge of the meeting at the yard re: the cabinets.
How on earth did they get her number??
And if you were explicit about them contacting you with any questions, why did they call her??
That salesman took you by the "BELTLOOPS". You have read Jeff's story right??
I'm not clear what happened to the garage. Your not getting it. Narrate the circumstances so we can critique it.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I actually haven't not got it yet. I'm suspecting that I'm not gonna get it. If I had tried to charge her for a proposal I would've saved myself the time of doing the estimate or I would've had some cash flow for the time I've already invested and I would know if I got the job.
The narration goes like this HO calls, asks for pricing on a garage and porch for a modular home she has had installed. The modular is not complete, I had assumed it was. Wasn't asked to do any of the stuff on the modular.
I meet with her Saturday morning. 3 Saturdays ago. Its a project I'd like but I'm busy for the next several months with current staffing so I saw it as the perfect time to attempt to charge for a proposal/plans. I could get the job done if I staffed up a little or hired a few subs. The job could've made a nice fit.
As I'm trying to rough a price for a eyeball estimate which could lead to a sales proposal and deposit the contractor installing the modular shows up. I got a little distracted and said hey I'll get you prices next week. Exchanged some small talk with modular contractor. Said good bye to the HO and hit the road. Mailed the estimates after a short phone conversation last Saturday.
Yeah, beltloops. Read it. Good stuff. It seems I may be missing one. :)
You need to spank the sh!t out of the salespeople and subs who are trying to deal with your customer directly.
I would fire the guy who's onsite doing the spackling (sheetrock finishing?) for trying to get around you and get hired directly. Go to the job now, tell him to pack his stuff and get off your job. That's such a major no-no in the trades that it's hard to fathom that your guy didn't understand that... and as such I'd say he's trouble unless you straighen him out now.
Same with the cabinet person. Go directly to the owner(s) of that business and lodge a complaint.
All communication regarding everything goes thru you. I suspect that somehow your personality is communicating otherwise to these folks, and you will need to change that.
I suspect that somehow your personality is communicating otherwise to these folks, and you will need to change that.
Bingo!
"The problem lies not with in the the stars but within ourselves"
In principle I agree with the points you are making. I like Blues' approach better if only because the sub dude is something of a family friend. My Wife thinks you are right and I should sever all ties with this guy.
I tried to get in tough with the lumber yard sales rep but she was out(Saturday). I was POed enough to start explaining to the assistant sales rep in training who also was present but I could tell she wasn't quite getting my problem.
The next cabinet guy(who I've worked with in the past) was on vacation. He will be the best deal for me and probably for my client as well. I had already wasted the day so the other visits were kinda just to provide service to the client. The custom guy had given my client the "my price is only good to April 1st" deal so the HO was feeling a little pressured.
Shoot, did I lose another belt loop?
I saw it as the perfect time to attempt to charge for a proposal/plans
THO, if this project required a permit, it was the perfect time to charge for plans/designs etc! When you structure your sales presentation properly, the idea of her paying for the plans and designs will be built into it. You won't have any chance to back out of your sales closing attempt for the plans/designs because it will be an intregal component of your visit.
Remember, ball parks are free, designs and plans are not. Don't let 9 out of 10 people steal the precious time that you need to share with your kids. If they won't value your time, after you've presented a logical sales presentation explaining your contracting system, they don't deserve your services. Let them contract with the guy in that is now poorly installing their dream home!
Protect your most valuable possession...time!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
The HO already has permits for the garage and porch. She included them when she filed for the modular. This contributed to my distraction.
Remember, ball parks are free, designs and plans are not. Don't let 9 out of 10 people steal the precious time that you need to share with your kids. If they won't value your time, after you've presented a logical sales presentation explaining your contracting system, they don't deserve your services. Let them contract with the guy in that is now poorly installing their dream home!
More good stuff.
I have an opportunity to bid on a log cabin/home. I think it is obviously another good time to try and sell the whole project right from the word go. Whadda ya think? $2500 to design the buildable plans including septic and such?
TMO, it is always the right time to start out the process right!
In most cases, the buyers will have materials to support their dreams, but it is our job to transfer those sketches and clips from magazines into a comprehensive set of plans and specs. This service takes time and skill and should not be given away.
If you don't learn to properly show the value of these services, they won't appreciate them when you give them free anyways.
If you present your company and it's expertise in a proper sales presentation, you'll soon sort out the takers of the world and find yourself working only with a higher caliber client. That's where you want to be anyways, so don't be afraid to lose a bunch while asking to get paid fairly.
I will invest five hours of preparation on a presentation, especially if it's a lucrative contract, but I won't spend five minutes figuring a proposal until I've already confirmed that they want my services. That can happen several ways. After presenting your company, and receiving some positive affirmations, it should be possible to agree on a budget. If the budget numbers agree with your knowledge of the business, you should be able to agree in principle that you will be the contractor assuming that your company can come in at budget.
This obviously works best with referrals but if you haven't sold your prospects on the merits of using your company, then you better polish your presentation or beef up your company because one or the other is lacking!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Attempted my first charge for an estimate/proposal yesterday.
People trying to sell a house are having some trouble and some estimates from another contractor are breaking the deal. His theorys sounded a little bizzare and it sounded like the prospective buyers used him, manipulated the estimate, and broke the deal.
I'm not sure how its gonna turn out....
They asked if I would give them an estimate and I explained I can only "give" estimates if there is a possibility of getting the job. Also told them they seemed to need more of a 'REPORT' or a proposal than an estimate. So I made the 'OFFER'
Tim
It sounds like they are trying to use you for something.
I'm willing to give a "report". I'd even drop my $2500 request and just do a written guess for an hourly fee of $125 per hour, one hour minimum. I'd ask them how many hours they want me to spend on it. If they said, one hour, I'd go back the the office, write up my WAG in five minutes and send it off, postage paid.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
No doubt Blue. This is the kind of call I would've simply avoided in the past. The people asking me for the estimates are friends with my Mom. I figured if I could make an offer of some sort then they can't be too disappointed.
From the description of the situation I think they may be being treated unfairly but thats thier problem. Fer chrissakes they are trying to sell a house and they seemed reluctant to part with $125.00 for a report on thier house. Luckily and thanks to the advice recieved here I am only out 12 and half minutes.
Spoke with my kitchen guy today and he explained that he can get me 5% off the prices he offers to "walk-ins" I told him that isn't good enough but he layed his numbers out for me. Of course 5% is better than the custom guy offered and the other lumber yard.
This supplier is my main guy. I have gotten several job refferals from them and they are good to work with.
In the past I have just bought cabenits or let my customer get em.
What Blue and David said is all good stuff. If loosing 5 hours and $15 on gas is killing you now you should go get a job cause this will happen over and over again. Part of the deal. You can't close them all so you will always fund some goose chases. DanT
Dan it ain't killing me. I've been at this for 12 years. I know how it works. Whats killing me is that I blew an opportunity to try to sell a proposal and work my client into an agreement without wasting the time for an estimate. If I had even saved the 4 hours my time would have been better spent. Thanks for the reccomendation on getting a job though. I really appreciate great advice like that.
Just in case you are interested here is a link to the thread I started before
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=54727.1&search=y
Edited 3/27/2005 11:47 am ET by TMO
Hey, no problem. Glad I could help out. DanT