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Hello to all! I have been lurking on this site for years – maybe since 96-97?, and this is my first post (watch out a FNG!). The learning that has taken place simply by reading the various posts has been literally worth thousands of dollars to me. I have remodeled a kitchen and bathroom, replaced a roof (solo – very hot up there in Aug!), and built a deck (solo – very cold out there in January!), all based on the information I gleaned from this site, the FHB magazine, and by purchasing a variety Taunton books. My full time job is riding a desk, but I get great satisfaction from working on my home. Anyways, on to the good stuff….
So you may ask, why is this guy now clogging up the board with a post, when he was doing so well by just reading? Well, my wife and I have embarked on the glorious process known as homebuilding. Last spring we purchased a 30-acre lot in Northern MN and we are hoping to start construction late this summer. We have a driveway roughed in (1100’ of it), power to the site ($5,150 of it), and the septic system designed (pressurized mound system), but not installed.
As it appears the regular posters here love a good story, my plan is to try and keep the FHB Breaktime board updated as to our progress (and to also get input from the many extremely generous individuals who provide input on any number of topics). It is my hope that I will be able to provide some kernels of information back to the readers and posters, while recognizing that I will be taking far more than I give back. The readers will probably learn more from my follies, then successes, but this is how we all learn. There has to be a first time for everything!
So here is the basic plan. We have engaged an architect to do design work, and provide us with (hopefully) thorough plans and specs. This process is proceeding (boy it is tough designing from scratch!). I am planning on being the general contractor (Oh no!). I have friendly financing (up to 3 years to close). I have an understanding and enthusiastic wife (for now!). I am planning on doing as much of the work myself as time and my skill permits (yep, a DIY’er gone wild!). I generally know my limits, and know when it is time to call in a professional. However, I get frustrated with some of the poor basic business skills (not to mention technical skills) that I have encountered and then I just do it myself. Good, fair trades people are like gold, and make the process seem easy!
I am leaning towards a SIP envelope. I know there are other sites out there for SIP building, but none that provide the general insight as seen on this board. Possible manufacturers are http://www.thermocore.com for a polyurethane foam core or http://www.enercept.com for an EPS core. I am still debating the pros and cons of each. Thermocore talks a good game (and they put up John “Cougar” Mellcamp’s house in Indiana….I wonder if I can talk to him as a reference…?!) My preference for SIPS is energy efficiency and compressed on-site dry in time. The panels are also an easy way to allow us to “balloon frame” to get a second “half-story” (3’-4’knee wall), and maintain a tight envelope.
As the building site is on ledge rock, about a foot to 3 feet under the soil layer, with minimal slope, there will be no basement. I am leaning towards a radiant floor system in the first floor slab. We just learned about concrete stamping and coloring, and think that it may be a neat way of getting a floor and “floor covering” in one process. We saw the Bomanite slate patterns at a recent home show, with 4’ x 4’ control joints cut at a diagonal to the wall and were very impressed. See the pattern at http://www.bomanite.com/bomslate.htm or at http://www.bulachconstruction.com/ in place.
We are also leaning towards http://www.hwindow.com/ for our windows (born out of Scandinavian ingenuity don’t ya know…), but we live in the land of Marvins and Andersons, so we have some work to do here as well.
Wow – and I am just getting started! Enough for now and as you can see, no real questions, but I wanted to get the background out of the way, so when I start asking some questions, there is some context. If anyone has thoughts on my plans, please post. I hope my posting provide some learning for all, and not be just a waste of valuable FHB disk space…..And again, thanks to all for past advice, and thanks in advance for future advice!
Sincerely,
Pinemarten
(http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/caer/ce/eek/critter/mammal/pinemarten.htm) for those of you who are interested in learning what a pinemarten is….
Replies
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Cool!
Someone who writes longer posts than me!
It's about time you came out of the Breaktime closet. To post pics of your construction, one problem you will have with such a long construction schedule is threads timing out and being archived.
You may want to start a website and simply refer us to your homepage whenever a new phase of construction comes about. It's an efficient way to categorize your project from start to finish, and with you having editorial control of your pages, you reign! It'll be a real nice, fully intact reference for SIP construction, if that's indeed what you end up doing.
Best of luck with your project, and again...welcome aboard.
Mongo
*Howdy Pinemarten,Sounds like a great project. You've got guts, building a large scale house with details like SIP's your first time. I'm not an expert on them but you may encounter some difficulties with them; do your homework...and ask around for subs that are experienced with them.Only way you really learn it is by doing it, taking chances. Think big, work hard, stay organized and keep the best attitude you can, it's contagious on the job. Best of luck,MD
*Hi, Pinemarten! Welcome, and thanks in advance for sharing with all. Everyone learns a lot here at BT. -Ken
*Mad Dog & Ken:Thanks for the encouragement. I do get the willies when everyone I talk to says "Wow, you are - nuts, crazy, stupid, (name your adjective)" to take on a project like this. However, everyone said the same thing when I decided to re-roof my last home, and it turned out great. Nothing fancy, but functional and looks good (albeit a few wavy courses!).One of the SIP suppliers I am considering (Thermocore) sends their own (employed, not sub'ed) crew with the panels, costs about $.70 more per square foot of panel (probably $4,000-$5,000), but you get an experienced crew and have recourse back to the manufacturer for problems (insert usual caveats here).Bottom line, I know I am biting off a big chunk, and I hope I can pull it off. I am hoping to reduce my exposure through the use of an architect who has built with SIPs before, and therefore I am spending many hours up-front planning details and knowing we will just live with things we overlook. As we design, I am also vigilant to keep the design simple. Squares, rectangles, etc, to hopefully keep problem areas to a minimum. Looking at about 2,300 sq ft finished living area (10 years from now!).Thanks again, I am sure I will have questions as I proceed.Pinemarten
*Hi Pinemartin. We are doing something very similar in the mountains of Colorado. Being your own GC is quite an adventure, but we wouldn't have it any other way. Ours is a log home and we paid to have a builder take it from the foundation to the roof, and we are finishing it from there. Its crazy, but we're having fun. I set up a website so our friends and family can watch the progress. The great part about that is that it has forced me to stay on top of my pictures and keep it organized. I highly recommend the website. The other thing is I can refer subcontractors to it and they can get an idea of the house without actually going there. It helps. Best of luck with your adventure.Paula
*Good Luck.I'll look forward to your future posts.
*Sounds like a great project. Have you thought about a concrete house, poured between foam forms? Goes up fast, good thermal mass, and R value, can't blow down or shake down, quiet, deep window wells, and just a wee bit more per square foot.
*pine... have fun..sips are cool.. i think the eps guys have a longer track record than the others.. also , you can get eps sips with Performguard panels where they treat the eps with borates to keep the vermin out..the stamped concrete floor over RFH sounds good... you can use eps under that too, just spec a higher density .. like 2.0 / cf...naturally you'll have a truss roof, with plywood sheathing.. skip the sips.. go with DP cells.. and of course VENTING.. hah, hah, hah...as to the windows... mfrs come & mfrs go... this dist. brings 'em in from scandinavia.. that one from germany... but the hometown talent will still be there 20 years from now.. like andersen... and their new line is worth looking at...keep us posted..you can start a pic. thread in the gallery.. but , you already knew that....
*Karl:Thanks for the thoughts on concrete. Thought about it, but really don’t know that much about the concrete process – looks good, but, I have been looking at and thinking about SIPs for years, so at this point, I am not prepared to shift gears to a whole new method. I am already out on a limb in thinking about a SIP house. So....
*Mike:I assume your comments about the roof stems from the whole vapor/moisture, hot roof / cold roof deal. Actually, using SIPs for the roof has been a big point of attraction for me (in theory), as it seems to be a great way to more effectively utilize the space (as in a 1 ½ story with balloon frame walls) and get cathedral ceilings to boot. I am concerned about the whole Juneau SIP roof thing, but it seems to be based on poor construction methods allowing vapor leakage from the interior, and not the materials themselves. Please excuse my ignorance as to the technical aspects of this topic, but it also appears that there is no consensus on the BT board either…I do not want to get into any sort of vapor barrier battle here, but it is my impression that if careful construction techniques are followed, one should reduce the risk of problems with a “hot” SIP roof. Which begs the question, would one of these “careful” techniques include the use of an interior vapor barrier (ie. Sheetrock, vapor barrier, SIP panel, shingle)? Interested in any comments….every perspective helps.Mike also thanks for the thoughts on the windows – you have a good point.
*Pinemarten,You'll find that cathedral ceilings can be the best or worst thing for the insulation/venting thing. I don't pretend to have all the answers about the subject, and welcome as much relevant detail as possible. The latest JLC issue had an article about building tight houses, I thought it was rather extreme but it seems to work for the author, and his clients. Might give you a few ideas.
*pine... i wuz pullin your chain about the vent /no vent.. ..i always vent soffits & ridge... but i have a lot of respect for pack it solid with DP too.. as to the roof...if you want a cathedral ceiling.. why not a scissor truss with an energy heel...? in your climate ( what 7000 DD ?) say a 12" to 18" energy heel... one inch of EPS 1.5lb/cf , foam on the bottom of the truss.....furred ceiling... then blow 18" to 30" of cells .... gotta be cheaper than a sips roof.. and faster under cover....in snow country like yours... what are you figuring for exterior pitch... 8/12... 10/12....12/12 ?so , your interior pitch can be 3 less than that , no sweat.. so 5/12.....7/12....9/12 for your ceiling...with a higher R-value than the normal sips...
*Mike:I should have checked the board before replying above to your post. Wow your OTJ thread is amazing, and now has me thinking that SIP walls and scissor truss with an energy heel might not be a bad way to go. I am impressed! We have about 9500 heating DDs, so good R-value is important. (Near Duluth, MN)Let me run this by ya….Please remember my architectural design work is not yet complete, and we don’t have the final plan as of yet so… Also remember that my architect will be helping me make the final call on all design and specs – so I am not looking to BT as a substitute for professional advice – only ideas….I am thinking the main section of the house will be about 25’ wide and about 40’ long. Simple gable ends. Off of one of the long side, will extend a 16’ wide by 24’ long “ell”. I am thinking the main section will have 12’to 14’ high SIP walls (dependent on the floor joist dimensions needed) to allow for 8’ first floor ceiling, then floor joists (hung on a rim joist that is glued and screwed to the interior of the SIP wall – no thermal break here…) and a 4’ interior height knee wall. Then I was thinking a exterior pitch of 10/12 (with SIPs, the interior would also be 10/12) giving me about 13-14’ of headroom in the center tapering off to the height of the kneewall over 12 to 13’. With your method, I could substitute a 10/12 exterior pitch truss, and get a 7/12 interior and still have plenty of usable space on the upper level. Huh, not bad…(thinking going on here…..)So let me see if I have the method you would use right in my head:1. Scissor truss with 12-18” energy heel.2. Your roof sheathing of choice.3. Shinglemate II ridge vent (BTW I used these on my re-roof of my old house & they work great!).4. Vented Soffit (continuous?).5. Styrofoam soffit to attic vent channels at the heel (extended high enough up the under side of the roof to not be blocked by the blown-in cells).6. Install 4x8 panels of 1” EPS to the bottom of the trusses (adhesive? Nails? Screws?) to create a thermal break between the truss cords and the interior? I assume you would not cut foam and install in between trusses?7. Would the foam sheets act as your vapor barrier, or would you further install a poly layer?8. Attach ¾”thick x 1 ½”wide furring strips (screwed to the truss cord?) over the foam panels (and maybe over the poly, if installed). Would the furring strips run in-line with the truss chords (up the roof line?) or perpendicular to the cords? 9. Meticulously foam in place (or tape if poly was used) any protrusions from living space to attic10. Attach sheet rock to furring strips11. Finish rock as usual…..12. Blow in cells through slot in ridge line before covering with ridge vent….I am fired up by this possibility…..!I like it as it helps solves a lot of wiring issues that would need to be meticulously planned with a SIP roof. Could also allow for AC mini-ducts to be run in the attic space! Eliminates the need for a massive glue-lam as the ridge beam, and the equipment (read large crane) that would be needed to install. It is a belt and suspenders approach – tightly seal the interior and be meticulous about it, but vent as well (just in case!). Creates a good thermal break….Potentially less costly than the SIPs!Several more questions if you don’t mind (me mind is racing faster than my fingers…):a. What sort of span can a scissor truss generally accommodate? Is 25’ too much?b. What sort of R-Value would I be looking at with the above scenario? The Thermocore roof panels were rated at R-41.c. The panels and installation (no crane, no glu-lams) where looking to be about $5.75 per panel square foot – still think this would be cheaper (ballpark yes or no is fine)?d. I am thinking that we will have fairly substantial overhangs –what sort of limitations with trusses would I have here?I must stop…..Thanks again………….!!!!Pinemarten….
*pine... u got a long post.. so i may miss something..on a 25 ' scissor truss, about the first third of the span would be 18" of DP... for a conservative R-value of 63...in the other 2/3 of the span.. you wouldn't get DP because if is not contained... so you compensate by blowing in say 28" and assume a settled density of say 24" for an R-valu of 84 so you average say R-77 thru the cellulose.. but in the truss areas you lose a little.. which you get back by the 1' EPSwith 24" of cells i wouldn't worry much about detailing to stop bypass.. just watch the obvious.. ie: if there is a small hole in the EPS.. forgeddabout it..no meticulous sealing.. just common sensethe energy heel is flush with the outside framing.. so extend the sheathing up above the plate line to form the cellulose dam... our Propa vent runs out above the dam into the soffit area. .. fiberglass insulation is a good product for stuffing any gaps so the cellulose won't blow out into your soffits or anyplace else it isn't supposed to go..the electric code has changed in most places so you have to prewire the truss area and make your drops for any ceiling penetrations BEFORE you put up your eps..EPS: we've used 1.0 lb./cf.. because it was the cheapest.. but it's lack of strength is a drawback.. now we spec 1.5 of 2.0 lb/cf because it is stronger and can take more abuse for a small increase in cost.. after the EPS is nailed in place to the BOTTOM of the trusses with common roofing nails.. then we furr perpindicular to the line of the trusses @ 16" OC..this adds strngth to the EPS.. and allows you to use 1/2" gypsum with confidence even with a truss area full of 24" of cells..scissor trusses can span almost anything you can build..we do a lot of 28' spans but 32' is not uncommon... and the main limitation is how big a truss can you transport over the road without a special permit....i'd get up inside the truss to install the cells.. so i can control the blow... and get as much DP as possible.. keep the fluff to a minimum...leave a 4' section out of the roofed area for access.. or go in high thru the gable end...you can have any overhang you want.. just spec an extended top chord...a common spec for us would be an 8" extended rake and a 12" soffit.... but 12" & 16" is common.... and any detailing your architect wants to use is great...as always, we just keep learning and trying..we've polished a lot of these techniques in discussions right here with other energy concious buildersb but hey, whadda i no ?
*Mike:you are da man! I know I get carried away with my posts, but I am sponge - watch me soak up info....Thanks - I have a new concept to ponder on my drive home (4-5" of new snow, more on the way - won't be breaking ground for awhile.....)Thanks again....Pinemarten