This is my first shower pan so I have a question. I’ve framed out the shower pan with PT lumber including 2 X 6 in the stud bays at the bottom. I will come back with Durrock over the inside of the frame.
I’ve built a curb/threshold of 3 – 2 X 4 PT’s. My instructions in both the Taunton book ‘Renovating a Bathroom’ and the Black and Decker book Complete ‘Guide to Bathrooms’ calls for expanded metal plaster lath which is impossible to find (remember when it was easy to find a piece of that and wrap a 2 X to use as a drywall rasp?).
Why can’t I use the cement board over the curb? I’ll shim the outside edge along its entire length so that it drains inside and make sure that it is solid. This seems to me to be a better way even if I could find the lath.
Thanks
Riko
Replies
Why can't I use the cement board over the curb?
How will you attach it over your membrane? Of course you left any mention of a membrane out of your post so one is left to assume. You can't nail it or glue it through or to a vinly membrane.
Perhaps you plan to use Schluters Kerdi over your cbu. If so then have at it.
http://www.schluter.com/english/articles/showersystem.htm
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Eric and others - thanks.Oh yes - the membrane. It is PVC. Rather healthy. I obviously had not given this enough thought. How to attach the tile to the top of the membrane without a cementacious base?Hmmm. Back to square one.Some interesting suggestions with new forms of hardware. The Kerdi info looks neat but I'm guessing I'll have trouble getting it here (Boulder CO) in time to finish this job.Kerdi did not have a list of suppliers on the web site.With Bonsal I could not find a local supplier using zipcode either. Both had 800 numbers so I'll check.I'm sure I could come up with metal lath in Denver and probably in Longmont as that is much closer. Thanks.
It might do you some good to struggle with the PVC this first time....the next time, you'll probably want to give the Kerdi system a try and when you do, you'll see why Gene Davis, others and myself (and anyone else who's ever used it), highly recommend the kerdi drain and membrane system for showers.
I would think it must be available somewhere in Boulder (much larger than my burg, which has two sources of Schleuter products).....try a tile supply and have them special order it.
If you want to use kerdi try tileprotection.com, great customer service and shipping. If you have not already been there check out the john bridge forum, lots of good info.
believe me...they have Kerdi in Boulder...they have it in Winnipeg where i live....the cheapest, ####, hog barn as main industry metropolis of Midwestern Canada that it is....they have Kerdi here...They sell it at Home Depot and most of the tile places. There is an instructional video on the schluter website and the stuff is really easy to use...go for it..
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
that metal lathe is available at home depo back by the concrete blocks and concrete tools.
And the PvC membrane-- well you are supposed to lay a mortar bed, the membrane then another layer of mortar...
check out http://www.johnbridge.com it shows you everything you need to know about creating a shower pan and tiling it.
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
I eventually found the lath in Lowes. It is a couple of miles away. The two local H Ds didn't have it. I certainly does not resemble the plaster lath I was use to. That black stuff that took some energy to cut and then paid you back by giving you a gash in your arm or hand.The stuff I've read said to place a coat of thin-set on first. This was to give the base a better grip to the plywood. Then follow with masonry cement, building felt, pan membrane and then more masonry cement. Last, of course is more thin-set to hold the tile in place.Thanks.
Or buy a preformed curb...............
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for expanded metal plaster lath which is impossible to find
chicken wire
chicken wireThat's not going to work on a curb...............can't figure out why wire lathe is hard to come by. There must be a mason supply somewhere.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
From Bonsal, a curb cover you can count on. The purists might want to use something like this, but I like to screw gypboard to a wood buildup, and just Kerdi over it.
Never, ever, would I membrane directly over the wood, or even do mud on diamond lath over a wood buildup.
View Image
When I did this, I found the expanded metal used to anchor stucco at HD.
I don't know either of those books, but I would recommend you drop them and buy Michael Byrne's book "Setting Tile", which has a very detailed description of how to build a mortar bed shower pan. Read and absorb the entire chapter before you do anything further.
Your use of PT in the shower stall tells me you expect moisture behind the membrane. That is not the way to think about this project.
Depot sells the expanded metal lath by the sheet. Its in the building material area. I think they market it for stucco applications.
When I did my shower a couple years ago, I followed Tom Meehan's step-by-step shower pan article (which is the one reprinted in Taunton's Renovating a Bathroom).
I extended the membrane up and over the threshold, as per the illustration on page 55 of the book. I built the threshold with 2 x 4s, just like in the drawing. Then, just as you propose, I used cement board directly over the membrane and tiled over that.
I used four screws to hold the cement board. Admittedly, the screws compromised the "waterproofness." But how much water gets on the threshold?
Attached below is photo showing the threshold. The painted wood floor in the bathroom is just barely visible. The shower is 3-foot by 6-foot. No shower door or curtain.
By the way, that aforementioned illustration has a couple mistakes. In the drain detail inset, the label "Membrane" should have a pointer line going down, and the pointer from the label "Felt paper" is supposed to point down (not up!) to that layer between the membrane and the "Pitched mud layer."
Allen
Edited 9/9/2006 10:20 pm ET by WNYguy
If you have a sufficiently stiff subfloor, then you apply felt, lath, deckmud, thinset and tile in that order, for a floor. If it is a shower pan, you split the deck mud into two layers and sandwich the pvc layer in between them. Do not nail anywhere through the PVC layer except 6 inches above your curb height.Other products can be used following their manufacturers instructions, most notably; Kerdi, Nobelseal, Ditra, etc.
If you do the Kerdi system, you skip the sandwich part...tile right over the Kerdi with the drain set to flush elevation with your tile.
I had some PVC leftovers on a roll....Use it for re-useable, cleanable floor cover in my chickenhouse.
Yes, that is why I put in the part about following their directions. I like the Kerdi System. I hope more and more start using it so the price will come down.
I used four screws to hold the cement board. Admittedly, the screws compromised the "waterproofness." But how much water gets on the threshold?
Boy are you in trouble!! Ever see the thread on buried junction boxes from several years back?[email protected]
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Eric, that buried junction box thread started shartly after I began reading BT!
I would never bury a junction box, but it didn't take long to decide to just go ahead and drive a couple screws through the top of my shower threshold.
The are a few decisions I've made on projects that wake me in the middle of the night. But not this one!
Allen
Another "rule" I broke in that shower project: I used pine to trim out the interior of the shower opening. I coated all six sides of each piece with epoxy, sanded lightly, then finished with SW interior oil-based paint. Two years now, and it's holding up absolutely beautifully.
Why are my ears ringing?
Boy are you in trouble!! Ever see the thread on buried junction boxes from several years back?"
Eric,
Was it that long ago?
Jon
Allen,Thanks for the info. I didn't do it that way but if I was to use a sealant below the board I would assume that it would be water resistant.I did mine the traditional way and, quite frankly, was not impressed. Client is still making tile decisions.Hope mine looks as nice as yours.Riko
Sorry to get into this so late...may not be of much help now.
As has been suggested, Byne's book does a good job of explaining shower construction, but I have been doing some expermimenting w/ alternative curb and pan construction. Stupidly, I did not take photos of the last project, so I will try my best to explain this alternative to a wood curb:
Cast in Place Conc. Curb:
1. Construct sloped base/fill per Byrne. Use temp. 1x located at room side of shower curb as edge screed. DO NOT construct built up curb.
2. Cut cem. bd. to height of curb. Install vertically and use 2x bracing to room side to support. Preferably, this curb edge is installed before cem bd on room floor which will support bottom edge. Keep bracing 1" or so below top of this cem bd edge (see next step).
3. Layin PVC liner, turning up at 3 walls. Likewise turn up face of cem bd curb edge. Insert 1 1/2" screws through top edge (max 1/2" below top edge) and through liner @ 8-12" OC, i.e. screws "stick-out" toward shower. Screws are later anchored in conc. curb. Optional: caulk at liner-screw. You have holes in liner, but shower is long overflowing by time this is an issue.
4. Place 2x form to shower side (usually 4" =- width but can be adjusted to tile lauout) set at height of room side cem bd. Use kickers against opposite shower wall to secure. Careful not to pucture liner at wall.
5. Weeps. Place 8" lengths nylon braided rope perpendular to curb at 8" OC. Any water seeping between liner and conc. curb will weep out.
6. Pour stiff pre-mix curb using top of forms a screed. Layin #3 rebar mid depth.
7. Once set, remove shower side form.
8. Complete sloped topping mortar bed per Byrne and tile.
I find this less work than mortar over a wood curb and less likely to have wood rot at the curb. The weeps are so effective that you will see water running out from the conc. mix! This suggests another experiment.
The only reason for the sloping subbase is to drain any water getting through the tile/mortar bed to the subdrain. Instead, eliminate the sloped fill and install nylon weeps above the liner radial fashion from the subdrain to perimeter of shower??
Nuts?
Sounds interesting.Are the weep ropes above the pvc liner?Riko
Yes. I extnded them about an inch beyond curb. Attached are photos of finished job.
I like the idea of a cast in place curb, but, if I read you correctly, you're using CBU for the form. A wood form should be sufficient, which you can remove.
(I'm on dialup so I didn't open your pics; too big. Try to resize them to 100 kb or less).
I've used PVC liner for years for the pan liner, but I'm a Kerdi devotee now. The Schleuter liner (and I believe there are some alternatives) eliminates a lot of work and is a much better way of ensuring a first time waterproof liner with very crisp corners (not to mention, much easier and faster to install).
You can thinset the kerdi directly over your curb and tile to it and you don't have to penetrate it with fasteners.
And, unlike the PVC system, you don't have to bed over the liner; the liner (atop the preslope, kerdi is the bed).
Their drain system is much better than what most plumbing supply houses offer, is of good quality and you don't have to deal with the rope thingy. (Limitation is choice of finishes of the grate; chrome, brass or black).
Thanks for the reply. The curb is cast w/ wood, in my case a 2x4 on end w/ 2x4 kickers to opposite wall. This will work w/ kerdi as well. I did not need to use corner dams since the membrane was simply folded back on itself at wall.
The ability to tile directly to the kerdi sounds like aqreal advantage...I'll try it next time. Probably will need to order on internet because local suppliersare unlikely to stock it.
Just tried to zip these images, but they get only 1% smaller, which does not help. Sorry. Maybe another day I can try to get orig. at lower resolution on camera.
I use a photoshop program, but I believe a lot of the folks here use Irfanview to size their photos. It's a free download.
do you have any idea what the approximate cost would be for the kerdi system in a 3x6 shower versus pvc liner and cement base?
The Kerdi liner, seam tape and corners costs me about $2 per sq. ft. And the drain unit is more than those ABS drains but about the same as a good quality solid brass unit....don't have the exact cost in front of me.
But to me, (having done a number of showers with the PVC liner), the extra mud bed, furring out the framing or back cutting the bottom of the studs to get a plumb wall to the floor, concerns about penetrating waterproofing behind an overlay of backer on the walls...all those worries are eliminated with the kerdi system.
Several steps are eliminated, the tile-ready surfaces are smooth and the corners crisp and it's very easy to do.
As a builder, I feel very confident in the waterproofing and the shower is tile ready in much less time than with the PVC system, which offsets any additional cost.
And the drain unit is very well designed and a piece of cake to install...
I'm not an employee or stockholder in Schleuter, but they do put out good quality, user friendly products.
And, I believe a first-time DIYer would have little trouble with the Kerdi system.
thanks for the info. i am considering a shower similiar to the one in the most recent photos, and i am concerned that my lack of skills/knowledge could result in leaks. it sounds like kerdi is the answer.
I agree. I just finished a shower with Swanstone base and a tub surround using Kerdi and it is a piece of cake. This was the 2nd time I've tiled, but the first vertically. Ditra (membranes for floors) is also awesome.
Thanks for the photos. You have a number of things that I also have including the recesed shelving. I had a 5 ft bathroom with a 8" vent pipe coming up from a bath below. It made easy acces to the vent but the shower became 4 ft long. I'm thinking of haveing a pull out drawer cabinet in the space between the shoer and the vent cover.It will be fairly large and therefore heavy so it will probably require multiple glides.This is a bath for a man that is 92 years old. An old time carpenter in the area. (When he retired he had the oldest union card in Colorado. He's pretty serious about overseeing my work and wanders in 2 or 3 times a day.) His family is doing the remodel in an effort to get him to live with them. He's active now but, like for all of us, it won't last forever.Everything is done now except paint and tile. They are still making tile decisions.
FHB Sept. 2001. Its the cover story.