Hello
My gf wants to enclose her back patio there are just concrete pavers out there now and she wants to build a elevated deck. She is talking to an ex-co worker about building it and he has given her an estimate, which listed all the materials and here are my concerns
He will use treated 2x6s for the floor joists and rim joists, attaching the one rim joist(s) to the 3 4×4 existing posts and attaching the other rim joist to the concrete block using tapcons. The span will be about 12′ rim joist to rim joist, looking at the span charts in the international code book there are 2×6 that will span the 12′ but not sure about the treated lumber. Talked to him last nite and he indicated that he was going to place the joists 16″ on center and double them up and add blocking. Got to thinking that he would save material just by going 12 in on center using about 17 instead of 26.
Second concern, attaching the rim joist to the existing 4×4 posts….will this work. He indicated that the posts are at least 3′ in concrete and will be fine. I would hope that he would use bolts instead of nail but forgot to ask him that.
Third concern is that the rim joist will only be about 2.5 inches above finished grade and they plan to sheet the room and apply vinyl siding. So I assume that he will sheet down to the bottm of the rim joist.
His total cost was about 9k. I told my gf to pull the permits and have him or I (probably me) to perpare some framing details and let an engineer sign of on it …….. for a couple hundred dollars we would know it was being done right.
She in canada near the falls……..
thanks for any input
Dan
Replies
How soon will she want to rebuild it and do it right?
;)
I don't see any mention of drainage details.
To span 12' she needs 2x8. A 2x6 job even at 12" OC will bounce to the beat of the feet
Lagging rims to the sides of 4x4s is crazy. That will be the first thing to fail.
What type hangers and fasteners will he use with PT framing is another concern.
If he is a bona fide contractor, why not have him pull the permits?
I don't know the system up there tho.
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Hi Piffin, havent tought of the drainage details. You are reinforcing what i thought all along, he would need to put in at least 3 pier footers to carry the rim joists. Since they plan to leave the existing roof in place along with the support beam above the posts ......... head room will be at a premiun, thats why the 2x6's so maybe a center beam to shorten the span. I have been trying to talk her into a concrete floor.
I asked him about the permits and he told me that she was going to do that.......I still like the idea of having it signed off by an enginner.
He has joist hangers in the estimate but the other fasteners, are a good question. So the tapcons at the block foundation is okay?
He wouldnt be able to start until aug or sep so we have plenty of time to get it designed right.
Thanks Dan
I missed the Tapcons at block wall. I thought he was using tapcons to hook ledger to post which is where I criticized lags to post detail.For this much span I doubt that tapcons would hold up the load, but it depends how many I guess and that is something that an engineer would need to determine.What would be the span on the outer rim joist and would that be doubled? Tripled?
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Yeah, that was my first concern--Tapcons. I sure wouldn't trust a deck held to a concrete block wall with Tapcons. I guess I'm not the adventurous type. Looks like it would be a short fall though.
Not sure about the no of 2x6 for the rim joist, just another question. What would you use to attached to the concrete block instead of tapcons? Also do agree with idea of using at least pier foundations
Also i did mention that the room will be completely closed in?
If it was my house I would take the existing roof off and start fresh.
Thanks
Dan
I work to concretet instead of block, so I am not certain.I use 1/2" wedge bolts drilled into the concrete. I'm sure there is a similar product for block
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What Piffin said. If headroom is at a premium, why not remove the existing pavers and go down, instead of up, to get more room for properly-sized joists? I wouldn't use tapcons for a rim joist -- ever. First, probably not code. Rim joist attachment to the structure requires through-bolts if they are relied on for support. Second, it's no big deal to put additional support posts along the wall to support the rim joist. Still, as you say, it's not a long fall. ;-)
Is this space going to be conditioned? If not, leaving adequate ventilation underneath should be sufficient to prevent problems. But if it's going to really be enclosed (as with windows, doors and solid walls) and/or conditioned, that's a whole 'nother animal, requiring insulation, vapor barrier and more attention to drainage. If it's going to be conditioned space, I'd consider a stem wall and slab. Prop up the roof, rip out the existing 4"X4" posts and re-frame the walls off the new slab. Be advised that enclosing a porch may move you into more stringent code requirements -- living spaces are more regulated than patios. Also, don't forget the electical requirements -- again, different for patios vs. living space.
Since she's going to be getting permits anyway, why not get some pointers from the BI up front? Might save a re-do later on.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I talked to a wood scientist who defined "adequate ventilation" as 18" free and clear.Not that I haven't done it closer, but 2" is just - I don't know what...
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I wuz thinking that if the space wasn't fully enclosed, the deck boards were openly spaced and the edges of the deck weren't closed in solid, it would be OK, but as you say . . . .
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thanks for replies, it would so much easier if she went concrete but i guess would still need a curb to elevate the wall framing. If she goes with wood framing she wants to install a plywood subfloor and the some type of flooring. Thats why i am concerned with only 2" under the deck. Plus dont most codes require a min of 6 to 8 between finish grade to wood framing?
The enclosed area will not be heated or cooled.
Dan
Plus dont most codes require a min of 6 to 8 between finish grade to wood framing? .....
I'm not familiar with the codes in Ontario -- I'm in North Carolina.
But I would disregard any code that said that a few inches is enough. In my opinion, there must be enough space under wood framing to allow an inspector or service-person to move about freely.
Otherwise, how you gonna inspect for termites and carpenter ants?
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
The only code that applies is the one where she lives.Nine out of ten times, a seasonal room like this eventually becomes a four season room. That is where she is going to have her worst heating, venting, drainage problems.A two inch crevice is just enough for a cat or other vermin to decide to move in to live. How does she feel about the odor of a cat litter box in her new room?
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thanks for the replies, so i win this one and she should go with the concrete slab yes?........i hate it when I am right
thanks again
Dan
You'll be lucky to get a year out of a plywood floor with only a few inches of space over grade. If it wuz me, I'd go ahead and pour the slab. Maybe even consider putting in a foamboard base and running some PEX in the concrete just in case you want to add heat to the room later. It'll only cost a few bucks extra now for the foamboard & piping -- WAY more if you do it later & there's nothing like radiant floor heating. And trust me on this -- once it's framed in, there WILL come a day (probably the first winter) when she says "let's make this a 4-season room!"
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
good point mike now i can look like the genuis........thanks
Dan
Does she get all excited around geniuses?If so, keep her away from the Fest or you'll be in trouble.;)
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