Replies

1. 
   booch | Mar 12, 2006 12:29am | #1

   Wow! Plenty of info out there but that is like making tomato soup or dill pickles. So many professional organizations do it for a reasonable price and the result is so much better than you can do ...

   Probably the easiest would be to hit the local library and look up millwork or carpentry. Finding the old textbooks will give you the concepts and terms.

   If you really want to make them at that point a shaper is your tool of choice. There are hoards of bits that make this an easier task... however thermopane it ain't.

   Shortcut is get a router bit catalog and scope out the bits for frame construction. it is more getting your mind around the mechanical parts than any sort of rocket science. You have to think like a mullion! Or.. you just have to cope til you find your stile.

   Best of luck.

   Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
2. 
   Matt | Mar 12, 2006 01:31am | #2

   To add to what booch said, IMO the energy effiency of modern windows and doors is one of the most significant advancemnts in common building materials within the last 50 years.  Basically, now a day, even cheap windows are significantly better than "good" quality windows available in 1950 from an air leakage standpoint, etc, etc, and this is largly due to modern manafacturing processes.   

3. 
   Ragnar17 | Mar 12, 2006 08:26am | #3

   Guess I'll have to buck the trend here and say that I think modern windows and doors suck.  ;)

   I made my first door last year and it was a great experience.  It's a three-panel Craftsman door out of solid VG fir, with flat grain panels.  It stained up beautifully -- without the goofy spots that always seem to crop up with the veneered factory doors.  I used mortise and tenon joinery and was able to make it to the exact proportions that I wanted.  I put in an antique mortise lock and will eventually make a leaded panel for it.  In short, I got exactly what I wanted, and it cost much less than I would have paid the retailers for an inferior product.

   If you want thermal efficiency, just add some leaf weatherstrip.  I am strongly opposed to the compression-type weather strip that continually stresses joinery.

   I can't recommend any specific books, Robyn, but I encourage you to undertake the project if only for the experience.

   You might want to post a similar question in Knots.

   Best of luck,

   Ragnar

1. 
   CapnMac | Mar 13, 2006 08:02pm | #20

   If you want thermal efficiency, just add some leaf weatherstrip

   Well, there's a bit more to it than that.

   In some climates, it's a very good idea, for exposed doors, to have a thermal break in the jambs & sills (which also can help the w/s resist temperature-induced changes).

   Really though, the modern doors do have a purpose in my book, they make a good airlock to protect a person's "good" door <g>.

   For windows, you could make an argument for the modern all-season storms over hand-crafted wood sashes--but, that's really going to want some region & climate-specific design, too.  At least, to my thinking, it does.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

4. 
   DavidxDoud | Mar 12, 2006 08:45am | #4

   here's a link to a thread from last year about building windows - 53734.1

    

    

   "there's enough for everyone"
1. 
   zak | Mar 12, 2006 09:43am | #5

   I was just about to post that thread David.Building windows and doors is a great thing to do, as long as you're in it more for the experience and results than the economics (unless you've got lots of time on your hands). Spend some time making detailed drawings of all your windows and doors so you can save time by prepping all the stock at once, and find some good, well seasoned wood.I would stick with simple, proven designs like casement windows, myself, unless you are planning on working with the very tight tolerances that double hung windows need. zak

1. 
   Ragnar17 | Mar 12, 2006 09:57am | #7

   Zak,

   I don't really think that the double-hungs are that much harder to make -- at least not in terms of tolerances.  The press fit between the dado and the parting bead has to be bang on, but if you cut all your stock at once (i.e. only ONE set up), it's not a problem.  I cut the dados first, and then keep taking off something like 1/128th at a time on the dimensional planer until it's just right.

   I build the frames to provide a 1-7/16" "track" for a 1-3/8" sash.  This gives you a little wiggle room for paint, etc.

   I've made lots of frames but haven't actually made any double-hung sash myself -- yet.  ;)  The check rail design is something I'm having a hard time working out.  I know people who just glue tapered pieces (in cross section) on to a "regular" sash, but I'd like to find a way to make it in one piece if possible.

    

    

    

    

1. 
   zak | Mar 12, 2006 10:06am | #8

   Ragnar-

   I think you're probably right, with the right set up it's not difficult, but, not having a thickness planer, I've avoided double hungs.  I've never been real happy with the old (1915) double hungs in my house (sealing), and I don't like how stiff most of the new single hungs without counterweights work.  A casement window I can make to fit right, open and close easily, and seal well.

   zak

1. 
   Ragnar17 | Mar 12, 2006 10:45am | #10

   Zak,

   Yeah, a dimensional planer comes in real handy!  Of course, you can always buy the parting bead at the lumberyard and then adjust your dado to fit.  But it takes a lot more time to adjust a shim in the dado then it does to crank the handle on the planer.

   Your complaint about the new double- or single-hungs is exactly my own; they don't have counterweights, and as a result, they all stick.  I've seen people pay $1000 for a "premium" modern double hung, and you literally have to hang on the sash to get it to move!  I think the design flaw is in the springs.  A spring (unlike a counterweight) has variable resistance; the more you pull it, the more it pulls back.  The counterforce supplied by the springs will therefore never exactly match the weight of the sash, and the designers literally *have* to add a lot of friction to keep the sash from wandering up or down.

   I've installed a bit of weatherstripping in "old" (1905-1930) double-hungs to cut down on the air infiltration and have had pretty good results.  There are several types of leaf-seal weather strips that work well.  Most that I have used are made of teflon and have a barbed anchor that you push into a 1/16" kerf.  You can install this on the entire outer perimeter of the sash pair.  Some people also use the old spring bronze weatherstripping, but it's a bit more tempermental in my experience.  I've also installed a silicon bead (hollow cross-section) at the check rail, but I think it's more trouble than it's worth; the wedge action at the check rail usually results in a pretty tight joint there anyway. 

   Traditional casements can be very nice -- there's just something very charming about them. 

   Was that a picture of your bungalow in another thread?

    

2. 
   zak | Mar 12, 2006 10:22am | #9

   Yeah, I've put some spring bronze in my windows, but on some the allowances aren't even enough- no room even for the weatherstripping in some areas.

   That's my bungalow in the picture- now fully painted and with a back porch, so much nicer. 

   Casements are a nice design to absorb the seasonal variations that wood has without too much sealing hardware, but in theory I completely agree with the beauty of a perfectly fitted and counterbalanced double hung- it practically opens and closes itself, and seals well.

    

   zak

3. 
   Ragnar17 | Mar 12, 2006 11:42pm | #11

   Zak,

   Regarding the spring bronze, you're right about the tolerances --- I typically have to plane off some extra dimension on the sash width to get it to fit.

   I've always liked that double-coursing of shingles like you have on your house.  Do you have any newer pictures?  I was also curious about that decoration at the gable apex.  Kind of reminds me of some decorative elements on Norwegian stave churches -- or possibly some elements of Japanese architecture.  Anyway, it looked like a neat idea.  How'd it turn out?

    

4. 
   zak | Mar 13, 2006 01:54am | #14

   Ragnar- here are a couple pictures of the house.  I like the shingle pattern too- unfortunately the original beveled cedar on the bottom was ripped off and replaced with asbestos at some point, but I've decided to live with that.

   View Image

   The dormer and back porch rafter/ridge cuts are the same as some that were on a trellis that was originally attached to the back porch, but was rotting away.  It's got a nice geometry that goes with the craftsman thing.

   View Image

   View Image

   zak

   Edited 3/12/2006 6:57 pm by zak

   
5. 
   Ragnar17 | Mar 13, 2006 07:57am | #16

   Thanks for the pics, Zak.  I kinda like the cut on the end of the barge rafters.  I see lots of variations of barge rafters in Seattle, but I've yet to see one like yours.

   I had some sort of concrete siding product on my house when I bought it.  Eventually, I just couldn't stand it anymore, and tore it all off!  I replaced it with 1/2 x 4 clear bevel cedar.  It was a lot of work (just getting the concrete off was much more work than I had anticipated), but I'm very happy with the results. 

   When you run out of things to do (ha ha), maybe you can pull of your asbestos siding under the water table.

5. 
   Theodora | Mar 12, 2006 09:50am | #6

   Funny you should ask; I just sent a library patron home with this book the other day...

   http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0806965444/102-6208294-7675316?v=glance&n=283155

   "No amount of time can erase the memory of a good cat, and no amount of masking tape can ever totally remove his fur from your couch. " ~Leo Dworken

1. 
   Marion | Mar 13, 2006 01:36am | #12

   Wow, $50. I'm going to have to visit my library.

2. 
   Shep | Mar 13, 2006 03:03am | #15

   Thanks for the link- I just ordered a copy.

1. 
   fatboy2 | Mar 13, 2006 06:50pm | #19

   That is a good book.
   I used it to learn how, and built all 50 casement windows, and 18 Panel doors. Everything was mortice, tenoned, and pinned.
   Have had marginal success with bronze weatherstripping, but think it is an installation issue, not whether the stuff works or not.
   All windows, and most doors were made of poplar. The doors exposed to the sun were made of white pine, which I let acclimate for a long time.
   Actually, all the wood was allowed to acclimate for months, even though it was ostensibly kiln dried. So far, 4 years, all is well and stablew.
   Stef

6. 
   Marion | Mar 13, 2006 01:45am | #13

   I made two double hungs last summer. They were two over two so I didn't have to join any mullions in the middle. I also built the top sash for another window where I modified a router-bit to match profile. I work on old houses and think there is a place for building to match the age of building. Weatherstripping-- bronze strip and v strip tightens them up. A good stormwindow completes the package.
   I'm going to keep eye out for that book--maybe I can buy one from someone who doesn't know they are worth $50.

1. 
   Ragnar17 | Mar 13, 2006 07:59am | #17

   Marion,

   How did you tackle the check rail when you made your double-hungs?  And what sort of joinery did you use?

7. 
   Soultrain | Mar 13, 2006 04:44pm | #18

   I may be wrong, but I thought windows & doors were required by code to be factory made...

1. 
   CapnMac | Mar 13, 2006 09:47pm | #22

   windows & doors were required by code to be factory made

   Depends on your AHJ.  If your locality requires certification of what r/e values your windows have (to validate the numbers in your energy envelope compliance calcuations)--then, you're hard pressed to use not-factory-made product.

   Also, if you live under the thumb of an HOA or ARC, you may be constrained to have windows & doors "just like e'erybody else in the neighborhood" (even if they're junk).

   Hmm, I may need to go look at the coastal wind-loading rules--they may require w & d to be tested to meet wind & storm standards.  (Could be a bit of a pain if you have to build an extra set of your windows so it can go to a wind tunnel somewhere.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

2. 
   Matt | Mar 21, 2006 05:35am | #24

   In my state windows have to meet a certain DP rating.

8. 
   andy_engel | Mar 13, 2006 08:12pm | #21

   You might want to check with your local code officials. Many jurisdictions require windows to be NFRC rated. You can buy insulating glass with low-e coatings and argon fillings, but it's the unit rating the official might look for. A good one will take an accomodating, practical approach and work with you. A bad one and you're stuck.

   The real value of the NFRC rating isn't all that important in my book, unless you have an abnormal number of windows (20 doesn't seem so). You might get an R-3 or R-4 out of really good factory made windows, and as long as you use insulating glass, yours shouldn't be far off that mark. Pay attention to weather stripping, as that's at least as important as the glass.

   Put your insulating money where it matters most, air sealing and meticulously detailed insulation. Have fun making the windows.

   Andy

   "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein

   "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

9. 
   user-122336 | Mar 21, 2006 05:07am | #23

   I just want to thank all of you for taking the time to answer my question.  I had no idea so many people would take the time to answer such a simple question.  Thanks so much! You've been very helpful!

   Robyn