Okay boys…I’m ready to shift my gears from production rough framing (for builders who don’t care) to conscientious custom rough framing (for homeowners who do).
I’ll start the list of our added quality efforts. Please add in whatever you feel adds value to a rough frame. I’ll cherry pick you’re items if they fit our climate/region.
Frank and I just started discussing our changes. We will be:
Using full headed nails (3 x .131). I’ll need gun recomendations.
Using nails insted of staples on the roof.
Offering galvanized nails or staples on the rough sawn exterior trim.
Taping all housewrap seams.
Using window wrap. Setting all windows/doors in a bed of caulk.
Gluing and screwing all deck ply down.
Gluing and nailing all partitions down. Gluing all the outside walls down.
Adding blocking for cabinets and other fixtures like door bumps, window treatments, etc.
Gluing all hangers to soften noise possibilities.
Okay……that’s the start of my list. I’m already feeling feint…that blocking for cabinets almost made me switch and go back to wholesaling….
And Mike, don’t even mention strapping.
I’m still not sold on bridging.
Please offer any suggestions. I could have put this in the construction techniques thread, but I wanted to keep it here because all of these are value builders. I’d like to discuss the relative value of the entire package, as a whole after I settle on it.
I’m definitly positioning myself differently.
blue
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I’m a hackmeister…they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Replies
double your sill to get a higher clearance in the basement..
paying special attention to framing to allow for higher insulation values ( energy heels, hollow corners, decreasing thermal bridging, yada, yada , yada )
switching to low maintenance trim... ( GP Primetrim... Azek... )
Mike, for the most part, I'm not going to be involved in the material selections, nor the design process. I'll be bidding existing plans and most of those details will already be spelled out.
I'm trying to create a list of carpentry techniques that separate us from the pack.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Use plywood sheathing and lap your joints (IE top sheet of first floor wall spans floor and second floor studs) which appeals to those interested in rigidity.
I would consider using 7/8" or greater ply for the floors. I haven't worked with it but see it advertised often. I imagine this would be a nice feature.
Jon Blakemore
Jon, that suggestion bears some thought. Around here, no one laps the sheathing down over the rims.
I'm going to chew on that one.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
- pre-planning floor and ceiling joist layouts to shorten exhaust vent runs for stove hood and bathroom fans.
- using sound-transmission reduction framing techniques for bathrooms and bedrooms, and for utility/furnace room.
- maximizing the use of otherwise lost space by backframing for built-in storage.
- adding a few sticks/block here and there - yes, this will be hard to do at first - to give the finish carpenters something substantial to nail crown, etc. to.
Pierre, I don't know any sound reducing techniques. In most cases, I won't have the luxury of changing the thicknesses of walls. I'll be locked into a 2x4 stud wall situation.
If I was a finish carpenter, I'd probably rip a cant strip and spike it to the corners as the backer that would receive the finish nails. I suppose I could add something in the rough if I know that the room will receive crown. Typically, we don't know what the finish trim details are.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Sound reduction is not difficult to achieve. Half of it is in the planning, the other half in the framing execution. Sound reduction is a quantifiable, predictable result that adds real value to a house. You can still use 2x4s, staggered... Different framing techniques yield various levels of sound transmission reduction.
I believe customers who say they want a top-quality living environment will pay for quiet and privacy, for it is something that will benefit all members of their family each and every day of their lives. Imagine not having to fight with teenagers over loud music, or being able to play with one's spouse in absolute privacy. It is also something that is easily demonstrated to potential buyers at time of resale, years down the road. Requires no batteries or maintenance either.
Another quality aspect is a house that reduces exposure to VOCs through a judicious choice of wood products, and a well-designed air-exchange/filtration system.
Edited 3/22/2005 11:51 pm ET by Pierre1
Okay boys...I'm ready to shift my gears from production rough framing (for builders who don't care) to conscientious custom rough framing (for homeowners who do).
Blue. Good luck finding homeowners who care and willing to pay for custom framing. To most of them/us, framing is "just" framing and price is the bottom line.
Never mind if they willing to spend $50.000.00 for a kitchen or $30.000.00 for a master bath.
Framing is something that the NEXT BUYER can't see. And this is not the old country that the house stays in the family forever.
Good luck finding the customers who care and willing to pay. Just don't burn your bridges. Do you ever think going into custom interior work? They're plenty customers there and they're willing to INVEST on custom interior work.
Or finding few custom builders?
Good luck.
YC, I've dealt with "custom" builders for 30 years now...I'm trying to get away from them!
I've already started the process of marketing to homeowners. They are out there and we will find them. Most of the homeowners attempting to build their own are doing so for several reasons, one of which is that they are attempting to get a higher quality house. We'll be marketing our message to that group.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
What about stacking your studs so the first floor wall studs line up with the second story wall studs? I've also used pieces of bituthene at the top of the stairs where the stringers attach to the floor, for the prevention of squeaks.
Just some ideas off the top of my head.
Dave
Dave, we already stack to facillitate the mechanicals as well as provide solid bearing.
I've never used or entertained the idea of bituthene in the rough. I'm not sure we've ever had any squeaking problems with our stairs either. I suspect that I would have had service calls if something was squeaking. We do use a bit of glue when we build our stairs.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
How about Advantek for your subfloors? 5/8" or even 3/4" roof decking to resist blowoff and add rigidity to roof. Insulated headers. Borate treatment of rough frame after dry-in? Stainless nails on exterior trim?
Some remodeler is gonna hate you when he goes to move a glued-down partition plate in the future.
Bill
I could incorporate the stainless steel nails idea. I'll offer it as an option at an upcharge.
What is borate?
The lumber package will be out of my control for the purposes of this discussion.
The glued down plates is actually a great squeak prevention technique. It works, but it's not pretty when you have to move a partition!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,Someone else may have already answered you on the borate. It is a water-soluble mineral that can be applied by garden sprayer after the frame is up to make the wood resistant to mold and termites. Low to non-existant toxicity in humans, but deadly to the bugs. I heard something about fire resistance as well, but would need to research it.Like others are saying, you need to find ways to sell people on this quality thing. Few homeowners already understand the importance of a solid structure to their quality of life. Your job is to lead them to that conclusion. Edu-marketing, since it IS true.Bill
Thanks for that suggestion Bill.
I'm going to look into that borate thing. We don't have mold or insect issues here, but some people are going to be very concerned and I will offer it as an option, or include it as standard and offer to eliminate it if budget becomes a concern.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,It varies by region. In bone-dry Colorado it was never considered. But anywhere there are termites, it is a huge value. If mold is going to be an issue in a covered frame, there are deeper problems, but I mention it because some people are super-concerned about mold, and may be receptive if you offer an upgrade that will eliminate the covered frame from their mold worries. Good luck on what you are putting together. It is a righteous cause.Bill
"I'll start the list of our added quality efforts... blah, blah, blah"
Surely you do *some* of these things for production builders. Right?
Honestly, I don't think value is created by doing what you propose to do. Value is decreased by not doing what you propose to do.
Am I correct in assuming you are still marketing to GC's and not homeowners? I'm particularly interested in tradesman who consistently do good work and love coming to work every day. A lot can be said for a man who get's things working alone, but value is increased tenfold for a man who can get others to do good work consistently.
Blue, I sometimes wonder if you know your own personal strengths and weaknesses and if you are addressing them when you post topics relating to your business ventures.
BTW, I sent you an email a couple weeks ago but never got a reply. Did you recieve it?
MattS I never received an email from you unless you changed your name. I do get a few emails from bters, so I know my email connection works. Send it again.
Surely you do *some* of these things for production builders. Right
You seem amazed that we don't do "some" of those things, the things that I mentioned. Actually, I'm a chameleon. Whatever the builder does, is what I do. I've never worked for a builder that noticed, or asked for all of those things. Some builders might ask for one of them, a rare builder might ask for two of those items, but I don't remember anyone asking or caring about all of them!
Blue, I sometimes wonder if you know your own personal strengths and weaknesses and if you are addressing them when you post topics relating to your business ventures.
Actually Matt, I'm in the process of understanding my strengths and weaknesses. It took me over twenty five years to face up to them. After twenty five years of business mediocrity, I decided to re-start the learning process instead of blindly marching on to the wrong beat. I survived my first 25 years because I was very efficient at a trade, but market conditions have exposed my business weaknesses and forced me to change my focus from a trade based, self employed "glorified job" to a better planned "true business". I'm in the process of broadening my business skills; I'm in a flux, I'm seeking my true business path and attempting to get it right this time.
I use this forum as a sounding board. I like discussing real topics with real tradesmen. I could talk with my wife about this stuff, but her eyes glaze over real fast!
I'll send you an email.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
1-1/8" subfloor... adds a lot to the feeling of a solid building
Frame tall walls with LVLs, also where cabinets/counters will go, where there will be tiled walls, etc. Much flatter walls and they look a lot better
Okay, I can see where this thread is heading and I appreciate all the lumber suggestions but I'm trying to focus on mainly rough carpentry techniques, not the lumber package.
I'm going to be selling my rough carpentry services to homeowners that are GC'ing their own houses. Since my prices will be 20 or or 30% higher, maybe more, I need to be able to explain the value of our services in the client's mind using their lumber package. I need to explain some tangible differences, justifying the extra time.
If the clients want suggestions about upgrading their product line, I'll certainly make all the suggestions offered.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I would find every oppertunity to show how your more expensive job saves money on other trades or in energy savings.
Such as... glue and caulking saves energy.
Glue and better nailing eliminates most creaking.. increasing perceived quality.
That blocking for crown might lower the trim quote.
Everyone talks about the foundation must be strong for a strong house... I would argue that the framing is simply the "foundation" for the siding, roofing, sheetrock, ceilings, etc... Make your task the most important. Stu
Stu, you are exactly right!
We are indeed focusing our message on your suggestion, "the rough frame is the most important component of the house". We can compensate for a poor foundation.
Great points about that blocking. I'm willing to add the blockings as needed and if they will help to lower the trim price, I can sell that. If they are going to trim it themselves, I'll point out that it will make a difficult job easy.
Maybe I should be thinking about running a bead of caulking underneath all the outside walls?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Right- thats where a gasket is spec'ed by some. -or- suggest the spray foam insulation that will cover that for you. (couldn't help but mention my specialty). I understand it's very popular out there in MI. If the HO plan on using SPF insulation you can frame specifically to that and save money. 2x4 outside walls, no caulk reqd at the sill plate, oversized attic joists not reqt, smaller roof trusses possible, etc. Study up on that and parter up with a foamer. That is a great niche. I've found the foam sells itself. When people do the research they demand it. You could market yourself as a SPF foam specialty framer. Once you do that, contact all the foamers and let them know. I'll almost guarentee your the only foam framing specialist so you'll be a natural referal from all those guys.check http://www.BASF.com/spray for more info. Corbond.com is good too. Stu
Stu, tell me more. I'm not understanding what the "SPF insulation" means. I only know SPF to mean spruce/pine/fir, a variety of wood.
You suggestion intrigues me. I think your marketing angle is exactly something I want to pursue.
Why would our normal way of framing be wrong for foam? What problems am I solving?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
If the partition bottom plate to subfloor connection is causing squeaks, maybe you should use drywall screws. (-:.I did have one other thought to add. If I remember correctly, you're a big proponent of safety? Maybe that could be a selling point: 1. You care about your guys, so they care about their work. 2. No one wants someone getting hurt on their jobsite.3. It helps keep your overhead down (lower insurance rates) which helps keep your labor rates competitive.Maybe you could add more.
To be upset over what you don't have is to waste what you do have.
Boss, you are making a most excellent suggestion!
I'm going to start snapping some pictures of the "other" guys sites and then compare them to ours. I'll then discuss the ramnifications of what could possibly happen when the Lawyers get involved.
I'm going to recommend that every client make an unannounced jobsite visit to every prospective framer. They'll see the "true" style of their day to day work operations.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Boss, you are making a most excellent suggestion!"
I keep telling you guys - I wasn't hired for my looks.
(-:
But seriously - I would stay away from trashing other framers. Keep it positive, and focused on YOUR company.
I wouldn't count on safety being a big enough issue that customers would be willing to make jobsite visits over it.
If you get out of the shower clean and dry off with a clean towel, then why do you have to wash the towel?
Great minds don't always think alike!
But seriously - I would stay away from trashing other framers. Keep it positive, and focused on YOUR company.
I wouldn't count on safety being a big enough issue that customers would be willing to make jobsite visits over it.
I'm not advocating trashing anyone. I'll just take few pics, then circle the OSHA safety violations, which are plentiful. I'll then create document showing the current data on injuries. I'll glean the facts from the Workers Compensation sites. After explaining why Carpentry rates are so high, it will be obvious that it is a high risk job that is easily managed using safe building practices. I'll explain that the type of injuries that could occur in "normal" jobs are nuisances, but in our industry, they can easily be catastrophic. A worker tumbling off an unguared bridge could easily end up in a wheelchair for life, yet most framers wouldn't think of adding a safety rail, even though it's required by law. I'll point out that occasionally, the Lawyers look beyond the contractors, who usually have nothing to offer and go after anything that has value...meaning the house that they are building!
I'll let them decide how much risk they are willing to accept, but explain that they should at least do a jobsite visit on any contractor they are interviewing. I'll suggest a drive by while the crew is working and a driveby at night when they are wrapped up. They will be able to look at my pictures and look for the most obvious signs of negligence, like osha kickers on the backs of two story walkouts, rails on bridges, stairwells and windows, etc.
Acutallly, this is a very important key angle and I intend to exploit it. It will benefit both us and the client. It benefits us because it forces us to adhere to a higher standard of safety and benefits the client because it minimizes their exposure to some very real litigation possibilities.
I'm envisioning a separate booklet on safety issues alone!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"I'm not advocating trashing anyone. I'll just take few pics, then circle the OSHA safety violations, which are plentiful."I would not even go that far.Now everone is going to be different, but I still take that is trashing the competition.I would have picture of the correct way with all of the special details flagged.Then give them a checklist with A, B, C columns and rows asking questions about different safety details.And more important keep in mind the question that you asked -VALVUE.And it has to be VALUE for the CLIENT. He does not care if you insurance cost your $3,000 and then next guy's cost $13,000 because of his bad record.But what is VALUE to the CLIENT is time. Talk about job stoppages from injuries.And also person liability if the framer does not have the propert insurance and suggest he be named or a ryder that notifies him if it is canceled.A "certificate" is just a piece of paper if the insuracne is not current.
SPF is spray polyurethane foam... sorry about leaving that out... generic term for icynene (1/2 lb foam), soy foam, Corbond (2 lb) etc. The 2lb foam is R6-7 per inch. 2.5 -3 inches is all thats needed in the wall and 4-4.5 in the attic. So, now you can use 2x4 walls and 2x6 or 2x8 roof trusses. No more need to oversize up to the 2x6 wall simply to fit more insulation in. Additionally, you can downsize the HVAC equip and many more items to save money.
Here's the framing parts:
save 2x6 down to 2x4
Window & door jam extensions not reqd
extensive caulking not reqd
insulated foam sheathing not reqd
cathedral ceiling can have smaller rafters
Larger interior volume from 2x4 wall (like an extra closet!)
More design flexibilityStu
Stu, thanks for that explanation. I'm dealing right now with a client that wants a 2.6 frame and I'll have to find a reputable foamer right now!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Since you are marketing to owner/builders, Blue, then consider the following:
You will plan out the lumber package and do all the value engineering. That means you'll use sawn lumber wherever you can, instead of engineered lumber. You'll evaluate stick framing versus trusses, with labor factors considered, in order to build at least cost.
You won't be paying for the lumber, of course, but you will figure it all and order it all. That's what my Amish framers did for me in northeast Indiana, after convincing me that they had the smallest burn piles in the county. Owner-builder would like to be relieved of the burden of estimating and ordering. Make it all seamless for them.
Include, if you already haven't planned on it, the installation of all exterior windows and doors, and the proper flashing thereof.
Include installation of all roofing, including, of course, all finished fascia, rake, drip, and flashing. Owner/builders don't want to deal with another subcontractor, especially a roofer.
Include any and all work inside that involves the use of your typical framer tools like big air guns and saws. That means every kind of blocking imaginable, and all soffit drops. Joe Homeowner hates to do that stuff with his limited time and tools, and you are so much more efficient. You can do it all in a one-half day followup.
Great ideas Gene!
We already include all the millwork (windows/doors) setting but we will be developing some sales aids to explain why we are superior.
I love the idea of packaging the roof. Remember, I have that high end roofing buddy that might be a perfect fit for this system! I'll be contacting him today!
We will be attempting to market to the consumers before they get all their lumber packages completed. Around here, we call these "Shell packages". I like the Amish approach. They simply get you to step five, all in one deal.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
One other thing. Not a biggie, but worthwhile.
You provide and use tarps to keep all stored lumber and panel material dry. You may in fact be using the pallet-wrap stuff the lumberyard delivers and leaves, but it is your responsibility to keep everything dry when it is sitting there not yet used. Don't make Mr. Ownerbuilder have to buy blue tarps and ask you to use them.
And here are a couple things to do to get future business.
Use great big good-looking yard signs that are easily seen from the road, and include your website address on the sign. Biz name and phone number are a given.
Take an extra ten minutes after cleaning up and putting up all the tools each day, to do even more cleanup and straightening out. People poke around after hours, and a really shipshape job appearance is an excellent draw.
Take an extra hour at the end, after clean up, to super clean the place. You want to redefine the term "broom clean."
Gene, that is also an awesome suggestion!
We will drag out the tarps! The broom clean idea is excellent too. We do a decent job, but we'll ramp it up to a much higher level.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
As an owner builder I will second Gene's idea about the tarps. We had to buy all the tarps to cover our lumber. And then we'd stop by the site randomly (sometimes after a big snow or rain) and find that none of the tarps had been put back on and our lumber was drowning. We even had a bunch of 3/4" plywood get totally warped and ruined, about 6 or 7 sheets. (Do we get to deduct that from their final bill?)
We had to constantly ask them to cover the lumber when they left and even then they rarely did it.
Then when they used our tarps to cover the gaping holes they left in our existing house, the lumber was exposed again. If we wanted the lumber covered, we were totally responsible. It was such a pain!!
Finally after the garage roof was sheeted, we (not the framers) moved all the lumber in there. It turned out that we had lumber hidden under snow piles that we (and the framers) didn't even know was there.
It would have been really nice for the framers to take care of all that lumber that we paid big money for.
If you stressed that you provided that up front, that would really impress me. Granted, now that I've had the experience I know this is important. I might not have known that up front but you should let HO's know this kind of stuff. They need to know that the extra money is saving them tons of hassles in the end.
I also agree with a lot of other things these guys (and you) have been saying. And by the way, we definitely did not pick our framer based on the lowest bid. We thought we were getting a higher quality framer than average. We only had this one guy quote the job so we didn't even know how others would have compared. This guy had a good rep and our consultants didn't seem to think the price was either excessively low or high. They didn't really comment on their prices much.
I think you're headed in the right direction though and considering our bad experience with our framer, people like us would be thrilled to find a framer like you.
Good luck!
-Kacy
I think you're headed in the right direction though and considering our bad experience with our framer, people like us would be thrilled to find a framer like you.
I know that Kacy. It will be up to us to market ourselves in a way to find those that want quality and peace of mind. Building houses and additions is stressful enough. No one wants to deal with the types of distractions that you've encountered. It will be up to me to educate the buyers to the pitfalls that await them.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
i think you list sounds really good. i do custom framing and icf walls. we do verything on that list and i have since i started building, guess i got taught pretty well.gluing AND screwing is NECCESARY for high end framing it doesn't take long. me and a buddy can do a sheet of 1 and 1/8" T&G{what we always use} in about 2 min.. painting the subfloor is a good idea, i'm going to do that on our next house.we use a sealant called NP1 when we set any window or exterior door, the stuff is awsome! we use hot dip galvanized for every aspect of the frame although on the beach down here our house would probably fall apart if we didn't.anyways, that sounds good it's framing like this that you can step back and be proud of. you almost don't want to cover it up with that ugly drywall!Ha HA Ha.....
RTC
My reaction as a homeowner viewing your list would be, "Here's a guy who thinks "bare minimum" construction is the norm and anything above is worth 20 - 30% more in dollars. Sounds like he's used to putting houses up as fast and cheap as possible. He's working for his interests, not mine."
I know that is not an accurate view of your work, but it could look that way to a homeowner. A lot of them are more savy about building than we tend to give them credit for. Some would take that list and ask your competitors, "Are these features considered 'extras' in your pricing?"
Sounds like he's used to putting houses up as fast and cheap as possible.
Fred, that's exactly how we all do work around here! That's the market we work in, like it or not. I can continue to stay in that market, or separate. I'm right now separating.
You might think that I should be ashamed of framing in that enviorment, but I don't. I'm a lot more realistic than that. I've worked 30 years in that exact enviorment and I know that it works to some degree. Nothing it really perfect, but nothing is really wrong. Most people stand back and look at the big picture and are fine with that. I'm one of those people. I don't need my house to be built to "castle" standards. I'm fine with the average quality of my midwestern roots. But....some people want more and I'm now marketing to them.
know that is not an accurate view of your work, but it could look that way to a homeowner. A lot of them are more savy about building than we tend to give them credit for. Some would take that list and ask your competitors, "Are these features considered 'extras' in your pricing?"
All of those would be considered "extra" in our market. In fact, 90% of the framers wouldn't even consider doing any of it unless forced and most would immediately think that they would lose money doing all of it...and they would, because they wouldn't be savvy enough to charge extra. Around here, everyone delivers Geo style framing to Lexus style houses without giving it a second thought.
This is the reality of our market. I could continue swimming with the boys, but I'm turning in and swimming against the tide.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'll start the list of our added quality efforts. Please add in whatever you feel adds value to a rough frame. I'll cherry pick you're items if they fit our climate/region.
(from your first post)
You might think that I should be ashamed of framing in that enviorment ...
Not at all. You had to compete in a particular environment and you it did well. I'm saying that customer perception can be different than what you think you are presenting. Maybe just semantics, but if in your first post you changed "the list of our added quality efforts" to "the list of our standard quality effort" it would read differently.
Edited 3/22/2005 10:56 am ET by fred
I understand what you are getting at now Fred.
I'm going to generate a marketing aid using all these ideas. We will be including all these techniques as part of our M O.
Thanks for pointing that out.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
I have been reading this thread with interest since I am the market you are going after. I know 4 other people who are at various stages in the process of gc'ing their own home. Quality is important to all of us, but saving money (or trying to) was also one of the main drivers for all of us in gc'ing our own homes. I am not sure how it is done in your area but most framers around here that work on the $250-500k homes do many of the things you mention as part of a normal frame (blocking, tyvek tape, caulking and wrapping windows, glued subfloor, nailed roofing etc). So at least here it would be tough to get an extra 4-6 grand (on my 20k frame job) for things being done already. Now as an O/B in hindsight one thing I would be willing to a pay little extra for are subs that didn't leave my job sit for six weeks while they did work for the big builders (i.e. my foundation subs). I do agree with one of the other posters, if this is the market you are going after, sell them the complete package to dry in the house in including roofing; maybe even siding too.
Kind regards,
Dennis
So at least here it would be tough to get an extra 4-6 grand (on my 20k frame job) for things being done already. Now as an O/B in hindsight one thing I would be willing to a pay little extra for are subs that didn't leave my job sit for six weeks while they did work for the big
These things are not normal or standard here. Roofs are stapled. Windows are just nailed in. Wrap is haphazard, rarely taped. Most flooring glue is poorly installed. Floors are nailed, not screwed. No one blocks for anything other than firestopping.
One of the biggest things I'm emphasizing is my personal involvement and our change of philosphy from servicing the builders, to service the homeowners direct. I explicitly promise that we will reserve their spot and work dilligently from start to finish without leaving. I know I can live up to that promise, becuase that is something we have always done. No horror stories in that department.
The question of savings is important, that is why I'm scratching my brain to find the value building in our techniques. No one technique will add up to 4k difference, but the sum of the parts could easily add up to increased value. The tangible value will easily exceed 4k or even 10k but it is up to me to explain it.
In the end, if all I'm competing against is a 4k difference, I think I can overcome that quite easily. 4k at todays mortgage market rates adds up to about the same costs as a bottle of water per day, when amortized over a 30 year mortgage. I agree that most homeowners are trying to save money when they build their own, but I also think that there are some areas that they should invest in value, rather than save in price. The rough frame happens to be the most important component of all when it comes to house building. It only makes sense to get the best job than you can, then reap the rewards in terms of cost savings associated with an excellent professional job.
Excellence doesn't cost, it pays. Peace of mind is worth a lot, espcecially when doing something as stressful as "building your own".
I could continue to give my excellent services away, but I've chosed to start selling them. Now, I've got to earn my sales commission.
Incidently, I'm entering into negotiations to hire a salesman to take over this area of my business.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
I have no doubt that you will do a fantastic job. It is interesting to me though that in your neck of the woods framers spend a fair amount of time doing stuff like building intricate brick pockets including offset cornnice returns but don't take the time tape the house wrap. Here even the cheapest crew in town would tape the housewrap but not even million dollar homes get brick racks. Regional differences I guess.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Dennis
Djj, taping housewrap is NOT required by code nor by the manufacturer. We didn't even have to put housewrap on till this year.
I think right now about 5%, maybe as low as 3% of the builders require tape.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'm going to think out loud here... and I'm plenty willing to be shot down.
You're going after the wrong market here. You're thinking about your career potential in the wrong way. You will be relegating yourself to treading water if you get into this niche.
Owner/builder HOs and subdivision builders are not people who want to spend a lot of money on your work. It doesn't get them anything they feel they need. DJJ said it quite plainly... he's doing it himself to try to save money, probably because he has to in order to do it at all. Guys throwing up subdivisions just want the unit cost as low as possible. These folks are not looking to spend money on themselves, and you won't find it easy to get much out of them. You'll always be competing with the low-end bidders and dealing with the won't-pay-another-nickel kinds of owners. F that.
There's another entire market out there, and it's about 1/2 a step away from where you are. Find clients who want custom homes built, additions built, or high-end remodels done, and work for them. Sell them the entire thing, and then produce it. They want and will pay for nice work. THey want a quick response and your undivided attention. They want the kind of kid-gloves service you talk about. They do not want to GC their own anything. They would not know what to do with a tarp if it fell off a shelf and hit them. They can afford this work during good times and bad. They want your expertise and they want you on the job. Get yourself a laborer, a couple of trim guys, a handful of subs, and start selling high-end, full-service work.
It makes me queasy to read about not having control of the lumber package. WHAT? Letting someone else buy the material?? No way. You need to be in complete control of the job... how it gets done, who does it, what material is used, schedule, sequence, everything. You need a percentage of every dollar that gets spent, and you need every sub on the job reporting to you and doing it your way.
No matter how many posts I read in these threads I do not see you positioning yourself away from where you've been as a production guy in a cut-throat business environment where the whole thing is about pinching pennies. The guy who controls and delivers the job is the guy who gets paid.
OK... start shooting.
Owner/builder HOs and subdivision builders are not people who want to spend a lot of money on your work. It doesn't get them anything they feel they need. DJJ said it quite plainly... he's doing it himself to try to save money, probably because he has to in order to do it at all. ..These folks are not looking to spend money on themselves, and you won't find it easy to get much out of them. You'll always be competing with the low-end bidders and dealing with the won't-pay-another-nickel kinds of owners.
David,
Just to clarify, I wasn't implying to Blue that all O/B are cheap and will only deal with low bidders. In fact some of my subs were the most expensive in town, but they were good and that is why I chose them. While I am saving some decent money ($40k) gc'ing and doing some of the work our house myself, we already had loan approval for what a real gc was going to charge us to build the house. GC'ing it myself did save us some money, which I promptly used to add upgrades to the house. But is also gave me the opportunity to be involved on a level that I never would have had using a GC to do the job for us. So at least for me, I didn't have to be an O/B, I wanted to.
My point to Blue was that many of the upgrades he was talking about charging 20% extra for were standard parts of a framing job here and that he would have to be a pretty good salesman to convince the o/b I know that it is worth an extra 20% for glued hangers especially when they are probably getting multiple bids from the better subs in town.
Kind regards,
Dennis
Dennis, I understand your points and should not have said or implied that you do not want a good job done or couldn't afford one. My bad.
I have been in residential construction almost 20 years and have always dealt with full-service custom work. Some clients are wealthy, others are middle class, occasionally not even that. The key is that they know what they want and have chosen to afford it. Whether I do my own work or do work for other contractors, none of us show up unless the budget is right for what we do, the way we do it, the materials we use, the subs we use, etc. etc. I have had interactions with plenty of people who want to GC, help out, provide the material, hire the subs, on and on. If at all possible I take a pass on those types of projects, because the management of those jobs is almost never smooth and the main motivation of the owner is often to save as much money as possible. I'm in business, I do this to support my household.
Edited 3/22/2005 4:07 pm ET by davidmeiland
Blue,
I just read through this whole thread. There are other thing that I should be doing but....................
I REALLY have to agree a lot with what davidmeiland had to offer.
I had allready developed some other thought before I read his post.
Have you done your market research to determine that there is a need for the product that you are selling??
You do need to deliver this package tight and dry. You MUST get a roof on this package, as well as properly installed doors and windows.
Gene had some good points too.
What david said about your placement made a lot of sense. You need to know that a market exists that can recognize the difference in the package that you are offering from the package that they will get from someone else.
How do you propose to educate an h/o who is not particularly knowledgeable that your systems are superior?
You need to get yourself established enough so that your name and company are always associated with a superior product.
Many years ago, I basically partnered with a friend and did a lot of framing, mostly for gc's, maybe 1/3 or less to ho's.
We were by no means the cheapest. We did good solid, plumb, square and straight framing. We kept a clean site, always. We moved out, never messed around, we were there till the end, and we did 100%, never left loose ends.
We delivered a dry package. Rakes and facia boards, roof on and all windows and doors properly installed, locksets in and handed the owner the key.
I think that you may be going after a very limited market. You are a step away from gcing the whole house. What's stopping you??
What's stopping you from building spec?
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
yourcontractor@aol.com
Have you done your market research to determine that there is a need for the product that you are selling??
No. I don't need to. I've been selling rough carpentry services for 30 years and it looks like another banner year here.
How do you propose to educate an h/o who is not particularly knowledgeable that your systems are superior?
That is the job of the sales agent. A solid sales presentation will include a presentation. The presentation will be comprehensive.
I think that you may be going after a very limited market. You are a step away from gcing the whole house. What's stopping you??
Yes, we are going after a market. Limited, I really don't think so. There is nothing stopping me from gcing the whole house. We are offering that on any size project. We've partnered up with a custom builder that has built for 25 years including a 10,000 sf custom for Curtis Joseph, the second best goalie in the now defunct NHL.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
My point to Blue was that many of the upgrades he was talking about charging 20% extra for were standard parts of a framing job here and that he would have to be a pretty good salesman to convince the o/b I know that it is worth an extra 20% for glued hangers especially when they are probably getting multiple bids from the better subs in town.
Dj, we obviously live in a different part of town! I couldn't sell a job for 20% more if I was only offering glued hangars. What you are calling standard ISN'T BEING OFFERED. YOU CAN'T GET ANYONE TO DO THESE THINGS HERE IN MICHIGAN. ASK KACY, SHE LIVES HERE.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
Yes I understood that. I was surprised that those things weren't being done, but I understood. It is interesting though, a number of the things I have heard you and others talk about as normal practice on any job such as shimming the sill plate for level if needed or brick pockets are pretty much unknown here. Whereas things like taping seams are common here but not there. Again regional differences I guess.
I wish you the best with the change in focus of your company.
Kind regards,
Dennis
he's doing it himself to try to save money,
I'm sure a certain segment of the "build it yourself crowd" is trying to save money. I'm not after that segment, but I still can be competitive after I eliminate the competition with education. That's the job of a sales professional. Build value, then sell on value. If I believed your theory, everyone would be driving a Geo.
There is a huge segment of the owner builder that simply don't trust builders and GC's. Everyone they know is fed up with the poor garbage that is being pawned off on them by builders and many take on the job of GCing because they think they can build themselves a better home by having more say in which trades are used. I've already met quite a few just by hanging my shingle out in one trade show.
I had a little conversation with Pete at Ubuildit. He verifyed that assertion.
and start selling high-end, full-service work.
That is already on the table and we are gearing up our marketing to find those clients.
It makes me queasy to read about not having control of the lumber package
Not me. I've worked 30 years in the field and have managed quite well without being the one to pay for the lumber. We simply explain what we need to happen in our subcontract agreement. Basically, we require all the lumber to be delivered before we start. If we start without a full lumber package, we charge an "early start fee" of $250. If the trusses aren't on site, we get another $250...yada, yada, yada. I get the phone number of the lumber rep and when something comes up short, we call direct and get it out there pronto. We refuse to frame houses with substandard lumber yards. We have a select number of yards that we will work with. Occasionally we'll try out a new one, but if the service is bad, we automatically up our next price, or move on, or they use our group.
No matter how many posts I read in these threads I do not see you positioning yourself away from where you've been as a production guy
Not true. Once I move into the retail market, it is I who control the pricing.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
David, I'll keep those suggestions in mind if I have the opportunity to suggest some lumber changes.
Thanks.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Gluing and nailing all partitions down. Gluing all the outside walls down."
Not to drag your thread off track, but what's the reasoning behind doing that? I've never heard of it.
Seems like it would make remodelling and/or changes much more difficult.
I hate to be too cynical, but - Like YCFriend, I don't see a lot of potential here. I'm pretty well convinced that the vast majority of people only pay lip service to quality. They simply aren't wiling to pay for it.
I don't think so, but did you see some of her girls?
Boss, one of the most common call backs we have on "floor squeaks" is the squeaking that occurs when the rigid interior partition slightly separates from the bottom plate. As you know, the floor flexes, but the walls don't. That tiny movement sometimes becomes an annoying squeak. It usually only involves one nail (a nail that is driven through the bottom plates into the deck to secure the partition) and it's a simple matter to slide the sawzall under the partition and cut it. Gluing does indeed silence these possible squeaks.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I had to fix several of the floor squeaks from floor flex beneath a partition wall (warranty work for a custom builder). Fixin' em before they happen with glue is a good idea. Call backs cost more than the hour or two it takes out of your schedule, they diminish your reputation (even if you fix them quickly).
I hate to be too cynical, but - Like YCFriend, I don't see a lot of potential here. I'm pretty well convinced that the vast majority of people only pay lip service to quality. They simply aren't wiling to pay for it.
You're cynicsm is noted. You may be correct about the vast majority. We don't mind losing 90% of our bids, we only want to make sure that when we work, we are profitable, while doing an excellent job. So, even though we are searching for a needle in a haystack, that's the direction we are going.
I had my first appointment last night, walking a site with a homeowner doing his thing. He's an electrical contracting estimator and a licensed electrician. I met him at the show. In our conversations, I've determined that the single most important thing that he likes about our firm, is my 30 years of experience in the trade and my explicit promise to be on-site building his home, the one that he told me he intends to live the rest of his days in. In this setting, I'm not just a rough framer, I'm an intregral partner in something that is very important to him. He's finally building the home of his dreams and together we are building a relationship that will properly facillitate this huge endeavor.
I will keep my promise to be onsite and build his home and it will be the most excellent home he has ever seen built, but my time is very limited and it is costly.
His home is not a commodity, it's his life. I'm understanding that, and going to make sure that he's happy.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Never let the odds keep you from doing what you know in your heart you were meant to do."
--Jackson Brown
I worked for a builder, for 3 years, who did most of the things you list. Other builders who cut corners would say, "sure he builds a nice house, but he'll never make any money at it." They were wrong. He is in with a developer now (because of the good reputation). He gets first pick of lots now, other inferior builders must wait their turn.
He had me put blocking in all bathrooms for towel/grab bars and plenty of blocking where handrail brackets would go, etc.. I got to do all of these details after the production framing crew left.
Bass, I've occasionally had requests from certain "high quality" builders to do some of the things too. The only problem was that instead of paying more for our services, they actually wanted to pay LESS! It's whacky but true!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Paint all exterior plywood with leftover paint to extend the life of the outside plys.
Gcourter, I'm not sure that adds value. If the plys aren't exposed, I don't see how that could help. Im not a painter, but I could possible arrange for the exterior trim to be back primed though.
Thanks for spurring that idea. I might set up a sprayer and back prime the parts as I install them.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
<!----><!---->
Whether you intended this post to go the direction it has or not, it is addressing some fundamental issues I agree with you on. Sad to say “Bottom Line Pricing†is “Capitalism†at its best and worst and is controlling the Homebuilding market like everything else in the “Real†market.
<!---->
I think you could justify 10-15-20% more for your work and still be competitive in the market with a couple more sales points. These are past, present, and future values that are provable to the Builder/Homeowner. I have used these points to justify better than average pay for my Framing services.
<!---->
“Quality Work Sells Itselfâ€
<!---->
“Excellent Craftsmanship Speaks for Itselfâ€
<!---->
A house that is “Framed the way it should be Framed†starts the homebuilding process out on the Right Foot. A Homeowner who is happy from the “Get-Go†will become the “Homebuilder’s†best salesman and increase Their Sales. A provable Value that justifies better pay. It also “Greases the Wheels†for the following subs and helps turn over more money faster by getting the homes to close faster.
<!---->
Another Provable value is: “Less Wasteâ€
<!---->
I have seen your “Advanced†techniques from your previous “Presentations†on this forum and employ most of them myself so I know that your “Style†produces a “Budget Friendly†Material efficient Frame. Another justifiable way to ask for better pay.
<!---->
“Happy Homeowners!†+ “Faster Turnovers!†+ “Less Waste!†= “Bigger Profits!â€
<!---->
Now, I also know first hand that you can help build a Homebuilder’s business for them only to get dumped on down the road when their sales increase beyond your ability to keep up with what you have helped create. They start by hiring young “Superintendents†to assist them with the increased sales and these young “SoB’s†(Superintendents of Builders) lack the experience to tell a good frame from the bad frame and the lower priced young Framing Hacks show immediate budget savings, bottom line “Bad Math†occurs and your pounding the “Streets and Home Shows†for a job. The client Builder goes belly-up when his sales consequently dive and the viscous cycle starts over.
<!---->
“Capitalismâ€, in Homebuilding, at its best and worst?
<!---->
It may be time to take the next dreaded step this industry offers Framers our age Blue, and change status up to “Custom Homebuilderâ€, and see what happens.
"There is nothing to it, but to do it!"
<!---->
If you become as good a Builder as you have proven to be a Framer the your next step should hold a successful promising future. I wish us both good luck whichever way we go.
<!---->
Mr. Jalp.
<!---->
That’ bad Tex-Mex for “Mr. Helpâ€
think you could justify 10-15-20%.
Very true Mr Jap. Actually, we will be pricing it slightly higher than that. We will need at least 10 or 20 percent more in hours alone to do a good job, then we intend to grab the builder's share of markup.
For instance, if we could normally do a house in 300 hours, we probably will need an additional 30 hours to do the things we are discussing here. So, our bid will reflect about 330 hours. Normally, we charge $65 wholesale, but instead will be billing at $95. This reflects the profit that builders make off of our $65 rates. So, instead of billing a 300 rush job at $19,500, we will be billing a 330 quality job at $31,500.
As you can see, the difference is dramatic, but then again, so will the results.
Thanks for the advice of Custom building. Those wheels are already in motion.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
It's a challenge to find the best profits between "Lots of Nickels" and "A few Quarters". (Mass production Vs. Quality Custom Production.)<!----><!---->
Also, Guinea Pigs and Pioneers often end up in poor farms. But Tried and True Methods are usually better bets.<!---->
Good Luck!
I have bought paint seconds for years, when I put the roof on the exterior is painted, when I glue and screw the sub-floor down I paint it. When I put the exterior sheeting on I paint it. Now I am not talking a super paint job, just to cover most of the wood, if it rains before the roofer gets in gear the wood is protected, when you do the sub-floor it reduces the wood scuff that you get from the tradesmen on the job. I have never hired anyone to do this, it is just one of the chores that I have taken on.
homeowners love...
speedsquares and sawsalls. Stock up on speedsquares (especially the colorful composite squares) and sawsall blades, dust off your sawsall and feature them prominently in your sales literature.
Hahahahahahaha!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
How are your sales skills? While you can get more by selling more, it's an uphill battle on every single sales call. I'd do it, but I'd also offer a low cost option.. let them see that there is real value to what you offer. That should also prevent someone from saying, Yeh, I'll frame it just as well only I'll be cheaper..
Realize that you will need to convince every single buyer of the value of what you offer. Too often when there are complex answers to proposals 2nd grade math winds up being the answer.. The way I would approach it is, Here's my Me too price" and here's what I recommend and why I suggest it..
That way your customers see that you really offer better value and it's not just a sales gimmick to get more money..
Remember there are a thousand differant decisions about a house that need to be made, new home builders are often overwhelmed When it get's too tough they tend to forget everything they were told and fall back on good old second grade math.. Hmmm,. he's cheaper than the others I guess that's who I'll go with..
If you're the one he calls based on his second grade math you have a chance to sell up or pass on the job..
Frenchy, my sales skills suck.
I'm not offering a low cost option. I can already have as much work as I can possibly handle at low cost. Around here that means working for builders. When I work for builders, I can eliminate all of the items, and more, than what we've talked about.
Realize that you will need to convince every single buyer of the value of what you offer
I'm not convincing anyone. If they want an excellent job, then we'll do business. If they want a fast job, then I'll go work for the builders who don't care what anything looks like anyways!
When it get's too tough they tend to forget everything they were told and fall back on good old second grade math.. Hmmm,. he's cheaper than the others I guess that's who I'll go with..
I'm not worried about them finding someone cheaper. I was on my first interview yesterday (I'm interviewing them, on their site). We talked about the house. At one point, I told him "we're not going to be cheap. If you want someone cheap, I can give you ten numbers to call".
My first retail customer told me this "I'm most interested in having you onsite. I want your 30 years of experience there. That is very important to me".
Frenchy, I now know that I will have to be competitvely priced with this guy, against every other framer, that has served a formal apprenticeship, has 30 years experiece, and has promised to be there, running the job from beginning to end.
That pretty much eliminates all the competition.
Mike is right...when you do it right, there is no competition!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
Niche marketing to owner builders sounds good to me. If I was building a house and didn't know any framers, I would consider myself lucky to get you, which is what you are thinking, right?
Its either, frame for builders for x a square, or for owner/ builders for more. A no brainer IMO.
Unless you can hire someone to do the framing for you :)
Its either, frame for builders for x a square, or for owner/ builders for more. A no brainer IMO.
Excatly Homer! We framed all last year at x-10% and didn't vigorously seek the homeower market, even though they are out there.
Our local newspaper just ran a story in the real esate section about the large numbers of owner builders looking for qualified contractors. I haven't seen the article, our architect told us about it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Awright...I've drafted the first of some marketing documents regarding our premium rough carpentry services targeted towards homeowner self builders. Here is the raw text. I haven't included any cute formatting like caps (some are done, but not many), bold, italix and underlines as well as bulleting etc. I was endeavoring to create a simple trifold brochure but when I compiled all the great suggestions that I gleaned from here, it appears that I'd have to either eliminate a lot of verbage or write in such small print that no one could read it.
I aplogize for the length of this post and hope it doesn't succumb to the dreaded "truncation" message.
Once again, all criticisms are welcome.
Dear Homeowner, <!----><!---->
Advanced Construction Concepts, LLC is pleased to announce that it has created a specialized rough carpentry division that is specifically dedicated to excellent customer service. We specifically have created a comprehensive carpentry package designed to cater to the special challenges that homeowner self builders face. We understand that you are trying to save money, while increasing the quality of your dream home. We know that we can help you, by delivering a higher quality rough framed package at competitive prices.<!---->
Please understand that we are not an ordinary rough carpentry crew. Our experienced and dedicated crews, combined with unique methods allow us to deliver a superior product that you can afford. You get higher quality for less money and have fewer headaches. We help take the worry out of the complicated process of building your own!<!---->
How do we manage to deliver higher quality while saving your money? That’s a great question. Here’s the answer.<!---->
Our On-site Panelization System allows us to pass on the same type efficiencies that were formally only realized in factories. Now, we Save you Money, by using fewer materials. We build you a better house because our systems are set up to create a more accurate product. We get your job done faster because our Panelization System used the same efficiencies that Henry Ford used to invent the modern assembly line. Our labor costs are lowered and we have time to attend to the various important details that every quality conscious homeowner seeks.<!---->
We use a full compliment of heavy equipment and up to date pneumatic tools. These speed the job process while providing the highest level of safety possible in an industry that is known to have serous problems as evidenced by extremely high Worker’s Compensation rates governed by state labor laws. <!---->
Please note that our standards are higher than those that the State of <!----><!----><!---->Michigan<!----><!----> building codes require. Look at this extensive list of quality minded practices and techniques used by our Rough Carpentry Specialists.<!---->
These impressive details are AWAYS included in our Standard Framing Package:<!---->
Full headed pneumatic framing nails: They hold your house together better, stronger and tighter.<!---->
We use full headed nails on the roof sheathing: Nails have superior holding power. They resist wind uplift better and are required in high wind coastal areas and seismic zones. They are superior at bracing the roof truss systems too. You will feel calmer when those inevitable tornado sirens are sounded. Your family will be safer too.<!---->
The beauty of your house is important to us too! We offer a choice of galvanized nails or staples for exterior trim work. The galvanization resists rust and bleed-through. In some applications staples offer an enhanced appearance after painting. The beauty of your exterior trim details is enhanced.<!---->
Your house will be totally house wrapped with a suitable wrap and ALL seams will be taped. Taping the seams further seals out drafts and helps prevent water intrusion. This reduces the possibility of mold issues occurring. This protects your family’s health against serious mold issues.<!---->
Your windows will be receiving the latest up to date installation practices. Each window will be wrapped in Vycor, set in a caulk and properly flashed and shimmed. Your house will have less air and water intrusion and the windows will function properly as they are intended for many decades. Again, your family’s wellbeing, health and comfort are improved. <!---->
We install all products according to the manufacturer’s recommendations. This protects your manufacturer warranties and gives you peace of mind. <!---->
The sub-floor system of your house will be installed using high quality glue and screws. Screws are a superior fastener that reduces the possibilities of squeaks in the floors. Reducing the noise possibilities allows you to enjoy the solitude of your home, without annoying creaks and groans.<!---->
We glue and screw your partitions down to the sub-floor. Our service history indicates that we can reduce the possibility of a squeak occurring when the floor flexes underneath a partition. You will love the solid feeling that a well framed house gives you. Annoying noises are reduced and eliminated!<!---->
Gluing the exterior partitions down eliminates squeaks while stopping drafts. You will love your cozy warm house, especially in winter!<!---->
We add blocking in the framework that supports cabinets, fixtures, hand rails, curtains etc. The blocking makes it easier and faster to trim, thus saving you money on the interior finish labor costs. The blocking makes all the finish work stronger and reduces the chance of fastener failure. You and your family will feel safe knowing that the handrails will be secure. Blocking also enhances the interior finished product by helping the trim carpenters to eliminate unsightly fasteners. Visitors will compliment you on your well built home.<!---->
Our carpenters use the latest methods of sound deadening techniques when installing support hardware that is also known to cause annoying noise. For instance, we will install a bead of glue in all joist hangers that creates a noise dampening gasket. Silent houses are pleasant to live in.<!---->
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We tarp all your stored lumber every night! We supply enough tarps to properly protect your valuable lumber from damaging UV rays and rain. You won’t lose any sleep wondering if your lumber is being damaged when the seasonal rains come. This also helps to minimize mold issues that could occur later.<!---->
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Jobsite safety is very important to us. We work safely while closely following state safety guidelines. This minimizes your general liability issues.<!---->
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Our jobsite safety techniques help you save money. First, since we do care about our family of workers; we all get to go home safe each night to our spouses and kids. Second, it reduces our costs by lowering overhead and insurance rates. You benefit by receiving a lower fixed bid because our costs are lower!<!---->
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Our workers are more dedicated and satisfied doing their work, because we provide a safe environment to work in. Your house gets built better by happy workers. You’ll be happier too when you inspect their work each night after they leave. <!---->
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We keep your jobsite clean! We continuously clean and re-organize the jobsite daily. This creates a safer environment. This eliminates jobsite dangers and you will be proud of your jobsite as you build your house! Visitors and other subcontractor that visit your site will have less exposure to dangerous conditions. Your liability issues are reduced!<!---->
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We know and understand the code book! This gets your house framed properly and allows you to pass your building inspections, often on the first try! This speeds up the building process and allows you to move into your dream home faster.<!---->
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We carry the necessary General Liability and Workman’s Compensation to protect you and your precious asset. You will sleep better at night knowing that your liability issues are covered.<!---->
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We offer a firm commitment as to our availability in writing! You don’t have to worry about time delays and scheduling issues. We keep you apprised of our schedule and never bump you from the rotation.<!---->
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We guarantee our fixed bid price in writing too! This eliminates the worry of escalating costs as the building season swings into high gear. You wont’ be held hostage by unscrupulous contractors that know their services are in short supply during the prime building season.<!---->
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All change work orders are done in writing using the fixed bid process. You won’t pay for things that you didn’t order! You don’t have to worry about cost overruns and hidden costs. <!---->
We review your house plans and help you “value engineer†it. You save money and time by eliminating costly, un-necessary building components and take advantage of our extensive experience in the residential housing market. We eliminate problem designs before we create them! <!---->
We offer solutions to serious potential problems, while the project is still on paper. You save time, money and headaches by utilizing our expertise.<!---->
We provide the latest innovations regarding energy efficient construction techniques. You save money for many years to come, while increasing your comfort. <!---->
Sometimes your projects require unique techniques and a high level of co-ordination to obtain the desired results. We accommodate your special needs and work closely with your other specialty sub-contractors. This eliminates undue stress that often accompanies special circumstances.<!---->
We work closely with your suppliers to assure a smooth and proper flow of costly and special order materials. Our expertise helps eliminate bottlenecks and gives you peace of mind knowing that your expensive materials will be installed in a timely manner<!---->
We work closely with you, because we understand that you have worked very hard on the design process of your dream home. We will have several phones onsite at all times to call you when a question arises. This eliminates your worries and assures that your ideas will be implemented in a professional manner. <!---->
Our experienced crews will work closely with your schedule and minimize the build time while optimizing the quality. We do this by using the “right size crewâ€; not too little, not too big, but “just right!†Your worries are alleviated about quality control issues and timeframe. We will not be compromising quality to speed up the schedule. <!---->
Our experience allows us to work closely with you if you are using some of the latest technology in house designs and systems. If you are working with geo thermal, ICF, or SPF (foam insulation), or any other system, you can rest assured that we will provide you with the expertise to accommodate the specials needs of these specialized building components.<!---->
Optional Services:<!---->
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We can apply a Borate treatment of your rough frame after getting it water tight. This will add another layer of safety and protection for your family by using this process to resist mold growth in hidden places. It also reduces the possibility of insect infestation. <!---->
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We offer Stainless steel nails on exterior trim components thus further reducing the chance at bleed through. Stainless steel fasteners will give you peace of mind because you know your exterior paint will last longer. <!---->
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We can back prime your exterior trim. This premium technique adds significantly to the life of your fascias and other exterior components. You will experience the peace of mind knowing that you have built a longer lasting home from the inside out. <!---->
We can include the installation of all roofing, including underlayment and flashings. This helps you to eliminate the need to co-ordinate several different trades before you get the house closed up to the elements. <!---->
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As you can see, Advanced Construction Concepts, LLC is clearly the leader in the exploding market of Homeowner Self Builds. Our premium package of high quality services is re-defining the Rough Carpentry industry in <!---->Southeast Michigan<!---->. Don’t sell yourself short and settle for less when you award the contract for this critical building component. Your house is your castle and you owe it to yourself to take the necessary steps to protect your most valuable investment. <!---->
Please, call us today to arrange a free consultation that will include a free plan review and cost estimate. We are convinced that after a close comparison of our services, you will be glad that you took up us on our no pressure offer. Let us put our hard working crews, extensive experience and modern equipment to work for you this year. <!---->
Please call me today at 586 292 7974.<!---->
Respectfully yours,<!---->
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Jim Allen <!---->
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Blue Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Edited 3/28/2005 9:28 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
Edited 3/28/2005 9:32 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
I changed my handle to my real name and no longer Dogwood Builders.
You know Blue that framing is the most under appreciated trade among the building trades. Good for you for trying to improve your product.
I think that if you keep on giving the product you have up to now that that would be better than most of what is offered. That product being skill and experiance I don't think that some of your upgrades will affect your quality that much.
Screwing plywood decking is not an upgrade IMO. For one it takes longer and the glue could skin over before the sheet is screwed off. Squeaks are often caused by shiners or failed adhesive. If you have dry joists and ply and nail as soon as the sheet goes down then there will be no squeaks. Always check for shiners before the glue dries. You probably already know all that. Screws? Don't make unnecessary work for yourself.
Nothing wrong with cliphead nails for framing. They are more compact and the nailers work in tighter places. They don't spit plastic shards in your face too. Round heads are only an upgrade if the nail is showing like on siding. Round heads are ugly too if sunk too deep or not in a perfect line. A speed square as a guide helps keep the nailer tip in line and your nailing pattern straight. Nothing uglier than a crooked row of nails up the siding or over a deck. Yes, I nail my decks too.
Taping tyvek is only for show because after you blow a zillion holes in it from nailing siding then you negated any taping. Using tarpaper is an upgrade over tyvek.
Staples on rough sawn trim looks bad. Those slots are ugly. You should be using galvanized nails already. Spec HD galvies or stainless.
A dab of glue in the saddle of a hanger is a good idea. Better if you bear on a ledger or header and avoid hangers whenever possible. Squeaks from hangers are often from wood on wood movement. If you cut your joists a hair short then you will have less squeaks.
Staples are OK for roofing plywood. There is no comprimise. Often the schedule calls for longer staples and closer spacing. Consult your engineering. What is ugly is staple shiners under the eaves if the tails are exposed. What makes staples bad is sinking them too deep or shiners.
Gluing outside wall sills is a good practice. Your shear should break on the rim joist for strength anyway. If shear is not required then caulking partitions and sills is more important.
These days you don't often see metal windows so caulking under the fin is redundent if you use a good flashing over the fin. I like strips of bituthane. The off the shelf adhesive flashing is often inferior. For a superior window seal, make sure all the framing is flush with the outside if there are thickness differences at the header and sill. That way the window goes on flatter without voids. If you don't have shear ply on the whole shell then disregard and go with caulk under the fin.
The rest of your upgrades should already be standard anyway. Blocking for window treatment is extra but blocks for tp holders,towel bars, Medicine cabs should be standard. Finish carpenters appreciate blocking for wainscoting. Blocks at all light switches for wider door trim is a nice extra. Double sills are nice for nailing trim. If the trim is wider then extra nailing should be provided where needed inside and out.
A lot of quality is the eye for details. Straight walls are mandatory. Your pickup guy should check the whole structure for crooked studs before the drywall goes up.
Screwing plywood decking is not an upgrade IMO. For one it takes longer and the glue could skin over before the sheet is screwed off. Squeaks are often caused by shiners or failed adhesive. If you have dry joists and ply and nail as soon as the sheet goes down then there will be no squeaks. Always check for shiners before the glue dries. You probably already know all that. Screws? Don't make unnecessary work for yourself.
Mike, I've learned long ago not to inject my opinion into something when a client already has one. Most clients are already convinced that screws are superior and most framers don't use them. Instead of giving them what they want, they are imposing their will on them.
Nothing wrong with cliphead nails for framing. They are more compact and the nailers work in tighter places. They don't spit plastic shards in your face too. Round heads are only an upgrade if the nail is showing like on siding. Round heads are ugly too if sunk too deep or not in a perfect line.
I dont' think clipheads are inferior, but I could make a case for it by citing high wind areas. If round heads are required in some localities, I can make the case that I care more about quality by using them. This sets me apart in an intangible way. The $50 per house becomes incidental.
Taping tyvek is only for show because after you blow a zillion holes in it from nailing siding then you negated any taping. Using tarpaper is an upgrade over tyvek.
Again, clients have already formed their opinions. They are sold on Tyvek and I'd be bucking conventional wisdom by forcing my opinion about tar paper. If holes are actually damaging the wrap, then tarpaper won't work either unless were gluing it.
Staples on rough sawn trim looks bad. Those slots are ugly. You should be using galvanized nails already. Spec HD galvies or stainless.
I prefer staples on rough sawn wood trim. We align them with the grain and they virtually diappear. The nail head show up a lot more. Staples are MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE. I'll offer either choice and have a sample showing the difference.
A dab of glue in the saddle of a hanger is a good idea. Better if you bear on a ledger or header and avoid hangers whenever possible. Squeaks from hangers are often from wood on wood movement. If you cut your joists a hair short then you will have less squeaks.
Bearing on a ledger wouldn't meet code here.
Staples are OK for roofing plywood. There is no comprimise. Often the schedule calls for longer staples and closer spacing. Consult your engineering. What is ugly is staple shiners under the eaves if the tails are exposed. What makes staples bad is sinking them too deep or shiners.
Staples aren't allowed in coastal wind areas. They are allowed here but by me showing that nails are stronger, as evidenced by their ban in high wind areas, I set myself up as superior once again.
Gluing outside wall sills is a good practice. Your shear should break on the rim joist for strength anyway. If shear is not required then caulking partitions and sills is more important.
We dont have shear wall considerations and if I start talking about that, i'd just confuse the clients.
Blocking for window treatment is extra but blocks for tp holders,towel bars, Medicine cabs should be standard.
I've been framing for 30 years and I've never seen a block put in for tp holders, towel bars. We don't use medicine cabinets any more. They went out of style around here in the 70s.
Finish carpenters appreciate blocking for wainscoting. Blocks at all light switches for wider door trim is a nice extra. Double sills are nice for nailing trim. If the trim is wider then extra nailing should be provided where needed inside and out.
Never blocked for wainscoting either. The electricians block out for switches where appropriate.A lot of quality is the eye for details. Straight walls are mandatory. Your pickup guy should check the whole structure for crooked studs before the drywall goes up.
I am the pickup guy and I always straighten every wall.
It's obvious that our worlds are very different.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You let electricians nail blocks? I thought you wanted quality? I guess you let someone else install towel bars and such using toggle bolts. Thats what you get when the guy that frames a house doesn't finish it too. A year down the road someone leans on the towel bar and it rips out of the wall. I have been framing about five years longer than you and we still install medicine cabinets. It is real easy to place a block at 4' and 6' in the bathroom. It takes a couple minutes. You don't have to install a medicine cabinet but at least you have a place if you need one.
I can't believe you prefer to use staples for trim. I guess you just use 1X trim over plywood siding. Then glop some thick paint and no more ugly slots. The last trim I put up I used 20d HD galvy commons. Quality is not using 1X trim and plywood siding. Use 1X over plywood... Go to jail. I don't use staples on roof sheathing either. I don't know why I cared. Holes from nails seal when using tarpaper. Edges of tarpaper self seal. It helps to have the shell sheared. If your clients want tyvek then oh well. I guess we are in different worlds. I'll take mine over yours anyday.
It's a snow day and maybe tomorrow. Our job is not dried in yet so when it snows we stay home. After that I won't have much time to waste here at Breaktime.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
BED.........I once worked for a builder that left a code book in open view on the job site. Interesting reactions from Home owner , the crew, subs and especially inspectors. The Home owner felt like everything was being done by the book , the crew used as a training tool ,the subs were really on thier toes and the building inspectors would site special situtations and make notes in and around the code book.
Nails, that is a most excellent suggestion. I'm going to start packing the code book and having it available on sales calls.
Wanna know the truth? I've never looked in one.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'll focus on one point... 1 you have to upsell the person pay'n you... so they have to a. believe you and b. like you If i was the one buy'n (pay'n an extra 30% for you to frame it right) then you'd have to sell me on the fact that by you doing your job really well and have'n to put up with me the homeowner you have to convince me that what you do NOW will save me MONEY later when the other trades come in... that the other trades won't have to notch or move you joists, that the drywall guy will have nailers where nailers should be... that I'll have plumb and square walls... that even if it wasn't in the plans or prints you KNOW what needs to be where & why... if you can sell me that you CARE then yeah I'll pay but you better be ready to almost be my contractor and let me know who needs to follow you and what they need to do to care for the work you've done
Pony
Pony, that is exactly the service that we are selling.
As a show bonus, we are tossing in $1000 (about 8 hours worth) of free consultation on non carpentry related issues if they buy a rough frame.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I think thats an added "value" people would pay for... we all know that a building framed right sure makes the work go faster that follows...
the deal is that you'll have to really be a salesman to sell this service... heck if you are good... you could get 50% more
pony
Blue,
I can only comment based on what I know here. DavidMeiland was right on.
We dont have framers as a separate trade. The 'builder' does it all, or arranges it all.
When a customer contracts 'Bob' to build the house, they assume ( correctly ) that 'Bob' will do all of it. They usually opt for 'locked up' or finished. Either way the walls are done, the roof is on, all doors and windows are in.
I am just completing my biggest bathroom refit job. I got it ( I suspect ) almost entirely due to A. Providing a complete package. ie: all work and subs are arranged and controlled by me. The customer does nothing.
B. My quote detailed what would be done as standard. Things like clean up, drop cloths on all floors, quality materials installed as per specs etc.
Seems to me that most HO now dont have too many clues when it comes to what constitutes a 'normal' job or a bad one, until it is too late. The headache of arranging subs is one I am sure most dont want.
As for the post earlier about the framers leaving timber out to get wet and snowed on. Man, I would go utterly ballistic if I saw that on one of my jobs. Standard practice here to cover the framing. Job clean up goes without saying. A clean site implies a level of care.
One thing I have noticed. When discussing rough framing, it has the word 'rough' in it. An unfamiliar term here. We have framing. No rough. As the framing IS the house, can you not drop that term and avoid any bad impressions in the HO mind?
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
Blue, just a few more from my limited 'custom' work.
Blocks in baths.
Be prepared for HO changes and visits.
Wide trim through out.
Crown moulding at gable and dormer eaves.
Clean job-site.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Blocking is a great idea from the trim carpenters point of view.
Blocking for cabinets, vanities, rail rosettes, handrail terminations, towel bars, safety bars, buit ins, ect. ect.
Hello blue,
I'm an owner-builder in central NC. Probably the kind of person right smack dab in the middle of your market. Let me tell you some of the things I value in a framer:
There are probably other things, but my brain hurts right now.
Hope this helps,
Roger <><
Roger, it does help indeed. We will be addressing all of your suggestions and making it a part of our sales presentation. Thanks.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!