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Building windows from scratch?

| Posted in General Discussion on October 9, 2000 02:19am

*
Does anyone have experience building doors and windows?

My folks are remodeling a 1905 Greek Revival school building into their retirement home. A big part of the final scheme is the addition of several windows and exterior french doors.

I’m reasonably skilled at cabinetry, so I intend to construct the doors and windows myself. I figure if ancestors could make a double-hung window with hand tools, I sure as heck ought to be able to make one in my shop.

I was wondering if anyone knows of a manufacturer who makes sets of router bits that would allow me to cut muntins and sash frames, or stiles and rails on my router table.

I’d like to try to do this with the router table, as I don’t really wish to purchase a shaper.

Also, how would I best cut mortises?

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  1. Guest_ | Oct 04, 2000 01:17pm | #1

    *
    Anthony,

    You are right, this can be done. But it is a big, slow process, and the reason I've tried doing it a few times is to duplicate window configurations or build doors to sizes or styles that are not available otherwise. As a matter of fact, the premise that ancestors may have made these windows with hand tools is unlikely. Windows have been jobbed out to factories way before 1906, and it probably was similar to today-the builder had to specify windows in advance and wait for the factory to deliver them, or buy stock windows.

    One reservation: if you have to ask about mortises, you may be disappointed with your results, at least at first. This is a bit advanced, if you intend to create "real" divided lites. Why? Well, two things-are you going to use plain glass or insulated glass?
    Also, it could create a dangerous situation whether on the inside or out if your joints are not strong, someone could get hurt.

    Amana makes a few different matched sets of cope and stick cutters that will match classic muntin profiles. I think Freud does too, and others. They are expensive. Expect to pay close to $200 for the pair.

    A shaper would be better, but a good router table will do. I would find some good straight grained white pine or douglas fir, hopefully dry, and run a whole bunch more than you think you'll need to create stock for muntins. You can run your sash profile edges with the same cutters if you like the design too.

    If you have an old window there to disassemble, you can better see how it was joined, and maybe put a modern twist on it.

    Most people nowadays don't build their own windows because there's no savings in time, (therefore money) and it takes some special skills and tools, plus some technology in insulation that only a factory can really provide.

    Good luck,

    MD

    1. Guest_ | Oct 05, 2000 01:34am | #2

      *Tony,Mad Dog gave you some great advice. If you feel that you have to make these windows, then I say....go for it. Pine and fir are good choices, but you may want to consider mahogany or alder. Buy a shaper. It has the power to cut profiles in wood that size. The knives are out there.....if you can find them. Amana is a good place to start. Custom knives can be ground for a price. Good luck.Ed. Williams

      1. Guest_ | Oct 05, 2000 01:56am | #3

        *I do window renovations and I recently saw a great way to build sash. These guys I know recently bought a school building here in Durango. Theyy had the sash profiles milled by a local lumberdistributorr and they cut the mortise and tenon with standard shop tools. It worked great. The sash cutters you arereferringng to are tough to set up and are a general pain in the %. If you really wansome sendend me mailil and I'll make you a great dealWork smart.

        1. Guest_ | Oct 08, 2000 06:19pm | #4

          *Anthony,Howdy there.I make windows for our jobs often and think I've got a good grasp of it. The biggest thing to accept before you start is that making windows by hand will cost at LEAST three times what a real nice Pella pro-line would cost. Also, no matter how good a job you do of it, they will never seal as tight as a factory unit. That said, there really needs to be a compelling reason to take on the project. Fortunately, there are many (custom profiles that match rest of house is the biggest)you just need to think them through in advance, so that you can remind yourself later when you WILL need to.The best bit sets I've found for router set-ups are made by Freud. They make a nice tennon on your copes where most sets only cope and you must either pin the muttons or rely on the glass and putty to keep things straight (bad chouce). Anothe good set is made by CMT. It's cope bit is set up a bit differet so that the stock passes over the bit allowing you to make your tennons as long as you want.I've got much more to say on the subject but my wife has said IT'S TIME TO GO for the forth time now and we don't want a fifth. I'll get back with you.PB

          1. Guest_ | Oct 08, 2000 07:35pm | #5

            *Here's a few books you might want to check out before you begin:"Windows & Skylights The Best of Fine Homebuilding" - compilation of articles about building double hungs, casement, skylights, bow windows, arched top, eyebrow dormers...lots of great sidebars on jigs, milling, grinding your own knives from blank steel...lots of good "how to" info. Great reference and very inspirational. Authors like Carl Hagstrom, Jim Picton, Rob Thallon, Scott McBride...names you'll know."Handcrafted Doors & Windows" Amy Rowland, Rodale press, 1982 - Lots of good inspiration, not a lot of "how to", but this is one of my favorite books on window making."Ed Knox Window Book" - a self published manual by a guy who spent his life making and repairing wood windows in Oakland. I got my copy from Builder's Booksource" in (I think) Berkely. I can't imagine a more thourough manual for repairing and building windows. Invaluable."Doormaking A do-it-yourself guide", John Birchard, Sterling, 1999. This was origianally published as "Doormaking Patterns & Ideas" about 10 years ago. He spends about 20 pages on the basics, like, framing, hardware, thresholds, weatherstripping, positiong a door under a protective roof...another 20 on frame and panel doors...10 on using a shaper and another 10 on paints and finishes. There are about 40 or so 2 page articles on various doors and how to make whatever makes that particular door unique. There are some holes in his joinery techniques and since the text is at least 10 years old not much mention of modern epoxies and exterior glues, but this is the most complete doormaking book I've read. It's a great place to start, at least, and I think it's a great reference.As far as the practicality of building your own doors and windows...while it's debatable about the money thing, I applaud your attitude about being able to do it yourself, like carpenters of old. Building the windows and doors for my house was one of the most rewarding projects I've tackled. If you live in a harsh climate, it's true you might regret not buying factory built units, but every time you look through a window you built, or walk through a door, you'll be using something custom made, something unique. Somehow or other, with the evolution of capitalism here in our society, we have come to value hand crafted everyday items less and less. This is one of the forces that is reducing our profession from an art form, towards a set of production techniques. First it was the millwork. Then the staircases. Then the cabinetry. Now even prefinished floors are common. This craft we practice, this art, deserves more from you and me and everyone in it, than making decisions based on what costs the least money. Build those doors and windows Anthony. Your skills and confidance will grow, and you will be taking back a little piece of our profession from the bankers and businessmen who now rule it. Eventually you will only spend the money you would have saved anyway, so think of it as paying yourself to do something you feel pulled toward, or tuition.

          2. Guest_ | Oct 08, 2000 07:58pm | #6

            *Excellent text, Jim. Your best writing since the "river of life" story.I sure did not mean to discourage him from doing it, just offering some insight about possible snags.But I should have taken the step you did. That is encouraging. I've got a door out there to build-see you later!MD

          3. Guest_ | Oct 08, 2000 08:42pm | #7

            *Good advise, especially the encouragement to do the job. Can't think of many things that bring the satisfaction of taking on a challenge like this and conquering.As for the router bits don't forget to try Grizzly. It has surprised me how many times they have a bit that will do just fine for something like this. But if you want a custom, exact match to existing you may really have no choice but to find a shaper and have the knives made.

          4. Guest_ | Oct 09, 2000 01:38am | #8

            *Anthony - I don't know what I could possibly add, except, take a minute and estimate how long it will take you to build one door or window. Double it and multiply by the number of items required. Do you really have the time?Don't forget that a lot of those windows and doors that our ancestors built were done in joinery shops, not in the backyard barn. How are you going to feel if one of the french doors warp? They can't return it, you will have to make another. It happened on a recent project of mine with custom-made french doors and fortunately the millwork shop was willing to replace the one that warped. It was a custom door of 100% spanish cedar with simulated divided light glass and custom muntins - very expensive. You won't believe (as indicated) how much time is involved in even setting up a weight-in-pocket double-hung window, even after building it.I don't want to add cold water to the mix, just be prepared. Running 2 x 6 stiles and larger rails pretty much calls for a production shaper (IMO). It's not quite the same as making cabinet doors.Jeff

          5. Guest_ | Oct 09, 2000 02:09am | #9

            *Anthony, give me a stack of studs and a pile of sand (I'll smelt my own glass), and I'll have them winders whipped out in no time.Err, will my Paslode break the glass or should I pre-drill it?always lookin for a new challenge.blue

          6. Guest_ | Oct 09, 2000 03:37am | #10

            *Anthony:You have gotten a lot of very good advice -- windows are not that hard to build and I have even built one with my Record 405 hand plane. It is not rocket science but it does take time. Good clear white pine with a hand plane with sharp blades/knives is an almost Zen experience.That said, there may be one major insurmountable obstacle -- governmental bureaucracy. Building codes may mandate glass tranmission ratings and frames with specified infiltration rates. Something that real old-timers did not have to face -- god I envy them.I still make windows that are non-opening for shops and areas where the building inspectors are not breathing down my neck. Those are simple and quick.Doors are an entirely different matter. The current practice of laminating the core of stiles and rails is in my opinion superior to solid wood stiles and rails because that construction technique definitely minimizes problems with warp. Face it for you to get true quartersawn, straight-grained 6/4 or 8/4 material is highly unlikely. Veneered doors for exterior applications are not durable and metal clad are f^%$ing ugly. Even though I am lead author of a publication entitled "Hardwoods of the Pacific Northwest", I will not ever recommend Red alder as a suitable wood for exterior doors. It is highly susceptible to fungal attack and problems with molds and mildews. If you are willing to build doors, I would definitely laminate the rails and stiles and use a proven exterior adhesive like resorcinol (sp??). And for stability I would probably opt for a laminate thickness not exceeding 0.375". If it were me, I would opt for at least 4 "plys" for the rails/stiles and would prefer 5. Mullions can/should be solid wood. If the door is exposed to direct sunlight, sorry to say, I recommend paint over transparent finishes. UV radiation will penetrate those finishes and you will have a never-ending finishing nightmare. That last little tidbit might be a controlling factor in your ultimate choice.

          7. Guest_ | Oct 09, 2000 06:06am | #11

            *Anthony,All I can say is good luck. These guys all gave you good, positive information. I'm gonna give you some negative info: From reading your post, I gathered (from reading "between the lines")that the reason you want to build the doors and windows is to help save money. If that is your main goal, then forget it. It's gonna cost you. Most school buildings I ever were in, had numerous windows and doors. If this is same as yours, you are talking about a lot of fabrication.Purchasing a shaper is a better way to go, yet very costly. A shaper will run you $400 -$500 minimum, and a custom set of knives will be around $80 to $100. Finding straight-grained wood is not too big a problem, but it should be kiln dried, so now wer'e getting into big bucks. (making windows and doors from #2 white pine from your local construction lumberyard will almost guarantee you warpage.) You will probably have well over a $100 in material costs for an average sized double hung window unit(28"X56"). Timewise, you will have stock preparation/seperation; jig set-ups and trial runs; actual stock moulding runs; assembly, special purchases to make assembly easier (clamps, brad nailer, etc. etc.); finishing experimentation before actual finishing; and plenty of storage space to handle everything before actual installation begins.In retrospect, you can purchase unfinished wood frame window sashes for about $50 each. You want windows with real muntins? They still make them. How much more in cost I am not sure; I think around $85 per sash?Anyway, if you got the time and the money....go for it your way. It will be frustrating for you, but also very fun and challenging. If you simply want to do this as a possible money-saver....forget the whole idea and go out and purchase ready-mades.Davo.

  2. Anthony_Colman | Oct 09, 2000 08:00am | #12

    *
    Wow. Lot's of very valuable information and insights.

    I'm not easily discouraged, though. I'm a very patient individual, and a bit of a perfectionist. So I will be building some doors and windows.

    Now my father and I have already built the rough framework for the floating geometrical staircase that curves a perfect 180 degrees, touching only at the floor below and balcony above. So you know if I'm willing attempt a project like that, I'm not going to balk at a couple of doors.

    Part of the issue is money--I'm an architecture student, and I'm purging all of my aesthetic bile out into this project, which has a catch-as-can budget. I've specified stock components as much as possible, but you just can't get the variety of components one could a century ago. We can't afford transoms custom built with the muntins forming a Greek cross, and they don't have those at Home Depot. So I'll make 'em.

    There's also the issue of craftsmanship. I envy the knowledge, skill, and ingenuity tradesman had in the generations preceeding us--and the fact that they got to USE their abilities. I've been on too many construction jobs where I've just helped build garbage--soulless, undignified tract-houses and apartment complexes. I leap at the chance to occasionally build something of lasting integral value.

    Now, with that said, where do I go to purchase unfinished sashes? And can I get them in custom sizes?

  3. Guest_ | Oct 09, 2000 02:15pm | #13

    *
    i you just can't get the variety of components one could a century ago

    You can to a large degree, but you have to know where to look, or, in some cases who to call. There is a firm in Vermont that makes custom sashes for a reasonable cost - I'll post back with the name when I have a chance.

    i Architecture student with aesthetic bile

    Oh-oh. I'd get over that before you start! ... :-) (been there, long ago). And BTW, don't forget rule #1 - put the client first.
    Jeff

  4. Anthony_Colman | Oct 09, 2000 02:19pm | #14

    *
    Does anyone have experience building doors and windows?

    My folks are remodeling a 1905 Greek Revival school building into their retirement home. A big part of the final scheme is the addition of several windows and exterior french doors.

    I'm reasonably skilled at cabinetry, so I intend to construct the doors and windows myself. I figure if ancestors could make a double-hung window with hand tools, I sure as heck ought to be able to make one in my shop.

    I was wondering if anyone knows of a manufacturer who makes sets of router bits that would allow me to cut muntins and sash frames, or stiles and rails on my router table.

    I'd like to try to do this with the router table, as I don't really wish to purchase a shaper.

    Also, how would I best cut mortises?

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