I have built some crude wood windows in the past, with a regular jamb and stops to hold the glass, a sloped sill, etc. But I wouldn’t use these in a modern home other than as interior windows or transoms. Mainly the kind of windows I’ve built would be good for sheds and garages and such. I have a project coming up where I would like to build some nice, solid exterior windows from some of my wife’s stained glass. Is there a design whereby it’s possible to do a site-built double paned window without the risk of condensation? Are there any resources for plans and such for building operable windows?
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Replies
That sounded like two questions. "double pane" and "stained glass" in one post.
I am currently building windows and re-building windows as we speak. For an Insuated Glass unit it there is nothing to it. Just assemble your frame and apply glass stops on either side to make a sandwich.
For a stained glass window, I have seen both glazed in with putty and the applied stops used for future repair allowances and other variants.
What I am doing is making true divided lite single pane single strength glass double hungs. I have adopted an experiment and being as these are on a budget and being painted, I make my muntins and mullions out of 1/4" wide stock X the thickness of the sash , 1 3/8ths in this instance. I tennon the M&M's into the sash frame, and half lap join them where they intersect.
I then mill 3/4" AZEK with a roman Ogee profile and rip to 1/2" wide. when mitered around the glass openings, it creates a rabbet ( I pin and glue the ogee in, stainless steel pins and clear Lexel as glue). I then can lay a bead of Big strectch white caulk in the rabbet, and bed the glass as you would do with putty, I forgo the glazing points all together.
Then bevel AZEK and rip as a glazing stop for the outside, the bevel is in keeping with the appearance of a putty job and sheds water..these stops are also pinned but no glue, so they can be pried off in case of glass damage.
When primed and painted you cannot tell the difference from a traditional cope and stick, unless you really study it at close inspection, and the speed of assemble is awesome..being as there are also circle head windows in this run, the azek bends easily to the radius and I can avoid the dreaded glazing putty.
I miter the glazing stops with hand held miter trimmers, they look like a pair of pruning shears and the Azek cuts like butter and you can get a fine "spring fit" of the stops with no gaps in the miters, and being as these can be short pcs., this is a safe method of trimming, VS a saw. I also have a Lion type miter trimmer that I would use for wooden stops the same way, it has a bit more control for fine tuning the miters. The Azek will deform slightly with the hand held trimmer when taking a sliver off a too long pc.
Lemme know if I can help.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I am currently building windows and re-building windows as we speak.
I am currently wondering, even as I type, whad-da-whadda you intended to convey in that post. Am I the only one who needs the Dick&Jane version of all that, with drawings or photos?
For instance, when you build a window frame do you simply mortise the head and sill into the jambs? Glue and nail? What size stock do you recommend for each piece? What species? What species for an exterior sill? All that good stuff.
I am putty in your hands. Mold me into a great window maker.
LMAO..Ok.
Lets start at the top. A simple double hung sash. The Top rail (horizontal) is tennoned into the side stiles. So is the sill rail ( it may be beveled to match the slope of the sill, or if the upper sash, it is left square bottomed). I use a pinned tennon when making new , I drill a 5/16" hole thru the whole shebang, and drive a 3/8th SQUARE peg that is of a harder wood than the sash frame, to hold it together. No glue. I have taken apart wedged tennons, and also pins of short lengths of what appear to be a 16D nail. The steel rusted. For those REPAIRS I use brass rod stock from the hardware store , to replace the bad steel pins.
Wood species: It gets bashed to bits here, but the ones I am repairing from one job are Circa 1850, and they are poplar. I just so happen to have poplar from about the same era, so thats what I am using for the rebuilds. On the circle head casements, they were/are Spruce/pine/fir and poplar, being as they have more torque applied on the hinged sides I am using walnut for the repairs, it holds paint and screws better and resists rot real well. Plentiful and cheap here.
Were I making stain grade interiors, Walnut or Doug Fir is the choice for me.
Ok, I see by looking at your question, I am talking sash, and you jambs, sills, heads..forget what I just said..LOL
I thought that that would be self evident, that the actuall jambs can be any species and the head is just screwed to the jamb legs that are in turn screwed to the sill cut out that may or may not have horns..the only woodworking is rout the parting bead dado at 1/2"x3/8thsdeep (common).
Back to sash..the thickness is determined by the glass..Single glass is .100 thick, insul is much thicker depending on the supplier..they'll make any thing ya want within reason, but for figguring, I use 1/2" minimun.
Heres where the methods depart..the Mullions (verticle) and Muntins( horizontal) need to be a bit beefier to carry double pane insul glass, and it behooves the fenstermacher ( window maker) to hide the glass divider/seal with applied stops or larger interior sticking ( the profile that creates the rabbet) which is commonally coped or Mason miterd at the intersects..which can be tedious where the miters/copes meet the tennons at the stiles and rails. In other words, you cannot ( well I CANNOT) easily machine that cope joint without the use of gouges and a real clear mind. Zen. Times 20. Muntin to mullion , there is also a stub tennon that meets in the Mullion.
This kind of work is a real brain buster, hence my hybred use of new and improved methods. Whether I pass the test of time is yet to be determined, but I'll be dead anyway, by the time they fail..so..if I can make a 100 yr window, I did my part. I build in repairability without making further damage to the areas around the ineveitable softball thru a window.
I think people are dissuaded from windows for some reason, they are challanging at first glace, but with a bit of detective work and a good memory , any one can make a window in a day, with hand tools only.
Pointers: make the hole in the wall, make the frame, make the sash, make the lites, cut the glass..screw up that order and you are working against the grain...cutting an 1/8" from old wavy or bulls eye glass is not a viable option..and BTW OLD style glass is really pricey..I can get SS new glass for 2.30$ a hunk that is 10x20 inches, ( about a penney a Sq inch,) that same size in old wavy style is 30.00$.( 15 cents and inch).
I charge roughly 1200.00 for a pair of sash 36"w 46" high each, 6 over 6. As an example. Primed all edges and installed in existing jambs. 100$ a sqft of hole....I ain't cheap, but I am busy..take it for what it's worth.
Damm, my longest post ever! Sorry......Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Good post,
That is a good alternative to cope and stick. I use resorcinal glue for exterior doors and windows.I also do a check rail that can be an applied 30' chamfer.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
This one batch from the 50's ( 18 that is) have an applied cap, that sandwiched some foam Weather stop..and a poorly MILLED check..these are special chilluns ( LOL).
Shhhhhheaaaaat..these old timers tried everything to get that right, and failed on every front.
BTW, my terminolgy would be meeting rails , but , whatever.
ResorceConservation has some new stuff in the works, ( I am about 6 months behind with them) just for DH winders, but so far, I am pleased with the options they have.
I did a slew a few months ago, that were even more "basic" and sealing the operable sash with a long term flexible seal was nigh on impossible, the meet rail was a full inch narrower than the fixed upper and my "window" of seal was a paltry 1/2" lap, if that.
I'm die hard on good crafted fenestrations, screw the vinyl, and failed garbage windows ( my house is full of them, and they suck) so while the stuff is out for paying work, I can make my own replacements..but truth be told, I am sick of windows..LOL
Theres that ADDDDDDD again...I wanna go do a concrete slab for a new shop, but it's raining, so I should go and do some drywall touch up, but I see the fire wood pile is low, so I go find the chainsaw, and it needs sharpening, so I go back in the shop and see a window that I started last week, so I trip over the dog that wants his ball thrown, and a neigbor says hey...
Then the wife comes home blowing steam from the "that little red light" on the car, and then I get my van unstuck to be able to open the doors to get to the tools that I need to pull a hose, while she says "what ya want for supper"? and I SNAP OUT, and say " LOOK...IT can't POSSIBLY be supper time..I JUST woke up"
Then the fone rings.." " UH, Duane?, wheres my window? it's like getting cold"
Yeah, I cut the elapsed time down to a science..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Ya know? I reread what I said. And I really think I can gain some insight from your response..I.E. Resorcinal , I HATE the stuff.
Do you think it really has the merits for this? I mean, it is brittle as cured, and hard on tools if ( like I do,often I just grab a chisel to tweak a goober) you need to re-anything....
Here is my ta(l)ke on it..as an adhesive, structural componet:
Cons.
It seems to be irreversable ( non repairable) In my mind that is a lose/lose situ.
It requires mixing in proportion ( ya gotta be smarter than the glue)
Cold temps affect the set up..I work in less than Ideal temps.
It will not swell biscuits ( lets not even ask how I FU'd that little issue)
"Fat" glue joints will fracture in temp extremes with certain species ( Cedar) tangential movement.
Pros:
It is red-ish in color
Extremely water PROOF
Easy Mix twixt the two parts being as the powder and sauce make a slurry.
I'm not sold. I'm the same way with fasteners, I quit stocking bright steel in my arsenal, just Galvs and SS and copper rivets ( ok, some alum for the gutters) but really, I don't see the benefits of driving around with bright nails or screws any longer, so I take the adhesives to the same extreme..and the "site mixing" of adhesives is cost prohibitive in my mind ( its a little thing, but still, it drives the bus (G)).
See, for me, this is a new education in many ways..I am die hard hide glue for anything that has to be reversed, and Poly Vinyls gave that, then the steps up the ladder to Aliphats, then the epox and CA's...but what got lost in Craftsman ship, was the best adhesive ever..friction and gravity and shear.
I gauarunteeee, I can do the same load test, with just those 3 ingredients. Some tmes, It IS that simple, we often over look the most obvious.
I get a kick outta the repairs that involve restructuring of an operable sash, that were done with epoxy and resins..I just repalce the part ( again) with the old stand by..wood.
Or in some cases plastic that has a beneficial application in a non easy way.
Historic? No way, but niether am I, when it comes down to it, on a tight budgetSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Duane,
You are right about resorcinal. It is fussy. I have actually been using Tightbond III since it came out.
I will cut in a Dutchman before using one of those miracle($$) wood fillers.
View Image
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
O' Great Fenstermacher,
Hail to thee! That was one grand explanation, no doubt about it.
At this point I'm convinced that paying you for a one day course in the fine art of window construction, on the job, would be money well spent. I may not remain convinced, after the day's work is completed, but I am at this moment.
So I'll plan on looking you up in order to decipher your methods in full scale, three dimensional form.
Do you really peg each corner of your sash, square peg into a round hole? Right through the whole "shebang", in other words, the center of the M&T joint? No glue, no clamps, just one square peg? And then what? Do you cut each end flush with a back saw and sand it off? Sounds positively medieval.
But...as I say, I'm convinced.
Put your stuff aside, it is a draw bore, oleder than dirt and Piffin combined.
I do ahve few tricks for coping the M&Ms to suit, but that aint a look over the shoulder knack, it takes real ilfe, real time.
Empty your head of thoughts, and get with it.
ISpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Rather than empty my head I performed a similar function, Googled up this fine article: http://www.greenwoodworking.com/Drawbored%20M&T%20Joint.htm
I was right, it's medieval. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Nice to know that there's still a few craftsmen using the old methods successfully.
Heyzeus Christo! Before I opened the link I thought ist was Drew langs..in NC
Yeah we all are kinda odd that a way, odd that we can actually make a friggin living doing the "wierd" shid..but I'll tell ya, dreams are elastic, blow them up and they pop in your face, don't and they do the same, they just smell bad from decay.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
"...dreams are elastic, blow them up and they pop in your face, don't and they do the same, they just smell bad from decay."
Man, that is one quote that I am saving. Good on ya.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
dude, just hammer the end of the peg to almost square or round before ya whack it in the round hole, this ain't piannas were buildin here.
A window IS a gateway, and deserves a spirit in it's craft..kinda like ya don't whistle while ya work on a chair, it'l sqeal when it rocks on two legs. Trust me.
Back to the pegs..they are important. A haunced tennon has a lot more anti-twist than a simple M&T. and a pegged tenon has more anti-withdraw, and a wedged and pegged has even more, resist to racking.
I say this B/C one of the jobs is a house that has settled for over a hunded yrs, and I can't build an out of square window. for each hole/ and NEW windows would pose an affront to the historical aspect of the overall structure, guess what? NO STORMS as well, so these have to be both Histerically accurate (looking) and tighter than a frogs azz ( water tite).
It appears I only, care about energy eff....but truth be told, Junkhound here ( Art) has me convinced that a decent window, with decent storms, is far better $$$ spent in the grand scheme.
Hence my penchant to build in repairability, I mean hell, why not? With my glazing stops ( someone will be along shortly to shoot me down) , I can Rand R a pane in 20 minutes and 20 bucks.
Callme stupid, call me anything, I stand to come back and fix it and you'll notice I have also left room for glazing putty, if in the event , I need to tweak anything.
When I saw my first clue of that "bread Crumb" it was in pipe organs, mark every joint with witnesses, so it can be fixed somday. Then I adopted it in guitars.
I only get flummoxed when I am on/in new turf, but I can name a few roofs that have a slight encoding in the copper, that only Dale and Grant can recognize...my way of sayin "I was here"
Life is short, I'd like to leave a mark.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Sphere, great post. I'd love to see your method illustrated in FHB. Better still, I'd love to stand over your shoulder for a day.
For my own home restoration, I've completed four new sash, but still need 18 more: for six 6-over-6 and three 9-over-6 windows. The meeting rails of the originals, which I am replicating for the missing sash, have dove-tail tenons that are mortised into the stiles. Do you think the extra strength is worth the effort?
I'm using all antique cylinder glass, gleaned from roadside finds and salvage shops. In actual cash outlay, it's very cheap and 100 percent authentic. But add in the time for finding, transporting, extraction, cleaning, cutting ... and I'm probably WAY over that 15-cents-per-inch figure you quoted for restoration glass. Hmmm. Don't really want to think about it.
Allen
I am contempating ( I heard it here) a steam box for the next raft of 12 overs that are looming in my future.
Glass breakage is huge baliwick, and heat guns, router, I don't care how ya do it, is a problem.
I can make a new sash faster than I can refurbish one, but that ain't what the customer wants, so I bend the rules and give a little of both..shhhhsssssh You didn't hear that.
C'mon down, I'll set ya up with a bench and shade if ya need it, woodstove for your tailings, and fine food. Then I'll hand ya a sash fillister plane and expect you to set the iron for rank or fine..thats where the metal wheels hit the road, not rubber..LOL
It is all Zen, and really so simple, that most folks miss the oppertunity to relish in the simplicity of a common chore.
Chop wood, Carry water. Or in winter, chop water..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
"C'mon down, I'll set ya up with a bench and shade if ya need it, woodstove for your tailings, and fine food. Then I'll hand ya a sash fillister plane and expect you to set the iron for rank or fine ..."
Sphere, I'd love to. It's not in the cards anytime soon, but in the meantime I'll work on setting a few plane irons!
A friend of mine located an antique plane identical to the profile of her 1830 muntins. She's using it as she replaces the missing sash in her house. And, dang, it seems a lot easier and safer than the hand-ground knives and molding head I used on my table saw!
I know of three craftsman in my area of upstate New York who make a living restoring and replicating antique windows. I hope to visit each workshop and learn something at each stop.
Allen
C'mon down, I'll set ya up with a bench and shade if ya need it, woodstove for your tailings, and fine food. Then I'll hand ya a sash fillister plane and expect you to set the iron for rank or fine..thats where the metal wheels hit the road, not rubber..LOL
Hey! What about me? I asked first. And I can make a plane fly! In fact, if I ever visit I'll probably come in my plane. Maybe I'll bring WNY with me, so's you can't kick me out for wise-azzery.
It is all Zen, and really so simple, that most folks miss the oppertunity to relish in the simplicity of a common chore.
I appreciate that statement. I've always enjoyed using hand tools, much more than power. Besides, I look more like the Buddha, every year.
I'm using all antique cylinder glass, gleaned from roadside finds and salvage shops.
Allen, be careful about using glass from a wide variety of sources. The color and general "character" of one lite to the next may not match to suit your tastes. This is very subjective of course, but something to be mindful of BEFORE you glaze up an entire sash!
"The color and general "character" of one lite to the next may not match ..."
Yeah, that's a good point. There is great variety in terms of imperfections, thickness and, to a lesser extent, color. Most of the salvaged glass is greenish, as are the panes in the existing sash.
So far, I've given considerable thought to each pane, and their placement within the sash. Generally, I'm "celebrating" the textural variety in a random sort of way ... but within the bounds of what I see in my exisiting windows.
I've also given some thought to practicality. In the kitchen, for example, I used a couple of the "less distorted" panes at eye level for a clearer view while at the sink.
Allen
I wonder if those of you who use old glass have thought of contacting installers of replacement windows?
When I replaced the windows in my parents 50 yr old home in SoCal, I had no idea that anyone would want the old glass. So I just put the sash out in the alley with the trash.
http://www.milgard.com makes thousands of vinyl replacement windows daily. There's a dealer locator on that site. That's just one of many.
" ... contacting installers of replacement windows."
Thats a good idea. I have considered that, and have previously had that suggested to me. From roadside finds I currently have a room full of antique sash ... more than enough for my home project and the occasional pane replacement I do for clients.
I'll ask the full-time antique window guys I know if they do that. If not, they definitely should. It would be great to have a "network" set up for the recycling of historic material like that.
I suspect, however, that most replacement window contractors wouldn't want to be bothered to even make a phone call ... easier to just throw the old windows into a dumpster, or leave them with the homeowner to dispose of.
Allen
I suspect, however, that most replacement window contractors wouldn't want to be bothered to even make a phone call ... easier to just throw the old windows into a dumpster, or leave them with the homeowner to dispose of.
True but knowing that might lead to a more creative approach...like $$$. Hypothetically, if you were to offer $5-$10 per four light sash and there were 15-20 double hungs that would be a minimum of $150, just for calling you up when they started the job.
==========================================================
Well, it looks as though I'll have to postpone my proposed pilgrimage to the modern mecca of the medieval. The Finstermeister has, by his silence, suggested that I am persona non grata.
O' woe is me. The prophesy of the messenger arriving by winged chariot will go unfulfilled in the land of Ken and Tucky. ROFL. Don't ya love message boards?
LOL..hey things happen, I had a few other fires to stomp out, one was getting my Internet back to speed after it dropped off the charts...I could hit reply, but the page timed out everytime before it would post.
Ever call tach support and after an hour of diqueing around finally get a real life person, then ya wedge the phone under your chin and accidently have it hang up? Yeah, that kinda fire stomping.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
That's kinda what I thought was going on but couldn't resist the opportunity to bust chops. Not to worry, I won't be planning any trips until next summer, earliest.
I've got so much work of my own in mind for next year that I probably won't have the time for more than a one day get-away, once every couple of weeks. That means a radius of about 250mi from home. As it's more than 500mi to your area, it's unlikely that I'll darken your doorway anytime in the forseeable future. ;-)
the azek bends easily to the radius
What's the tightest radius you've used so far?
Also, I don't think you ever described exactly what you do at the check (meeting) rails. Do you glue wedge-shaped pieces on to the rails, or do you mill them from solid stock?
Edited 11/14/2007 2:49 am ET by Ragnar17
The half moon in these is about a 3" radius.
The Dh's upper rail of the lower sash has a 15 degree slant and a notch where it glides past the parting bead, you'd think there would be a matching bevel on the upper sash, but on these particular windows there is not.
I'll try to get a picture up of the casements this afternoon, camera batts are dead.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
>>The half moon in these is about a 3" radius.<<3 INCH radius? That's a pretty tight bend! I'm going to tell a friend about that -- it's something that may help him out on an upcoming project.Looking forward to any pictures you can post. Especially if you have any of the check rails before they've been assembled.
I'll see what I can come up with, all hell broke loose with other stuff taking a front burner for a bit.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Here I found a mock up picture, maybe you can get the idea...
View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Whats the make on that trimmer. I searched and couldn't find one.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
>Whats the make on that trimmer. I searched and couldn't find one.<
Dunno if you got an answer to that but here's aliink
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4120
I picked it up a few weeks ago when I was in the store. Works pretty good.
> I would like to build some nice, solid exterior windows from some of my wife's stained glass. Is there a design whereby it's possible to do a site-built double paned window without the risk of condensation?
You might consider an old European idea: Casement windows with two sets of sash in one jamb. Make a set of outswing sash with ordinary glass to keep the weather out, and put the decorative stained glass in a set of inswing sash. You get most of the thermal advantage of double panes, plus easy access to clean everything and remove condensation. You can look at stained glass or a clear view without wind coming through.
Oh, and fuggedabout those miserable crank actuators. Use a long hook and eye, or rod and thumbscrew hardware.
-- J.S.
Go to a glass shop that either makes themselves or sends away for insulated windows. You give them the stained glass and they give you back an insulated window. This is common in the industry.