I’ve run into a few built-in gutters and was wondering what Breaktime wisdom might be on them. Typically the ones I’ve run into, someone has retro-fitted (remuddled) hanging gutters on the outside of the built-ins. A couple times the built-ins were still in use.
Assuming you’re going to keep the built-ins (typically looks better), what is the preferred liner for these built-ins? The last one (100 yo house) had to have several layers of asphalt scrapped out and then it had tin under that. On this one, we just scrapped out the old and put in EPDM (I wasn’t running the show, so it wasn’t my call one way or the other). That was really the first working built-ins that I’d stuck my nose into, but I often see similar houses with built-in problems.
So what is the preferred liner and general feelings on the built-ins?
jt8
Replies
I'll say this b4 my buddy Greencu does..
Copper.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Great, copper. Can't we find a more expensive material to use? ;)
Next thing you'll tell me is that it isn't expensive when the 100 year lifespan is taken into account. I suppose that means I'd have to get my big #### up there with the solder to do the joints? Like some plumbing project gone wrong.
With the EPDM, we had yanked the bottom 3 courses of shingles and ran it from there, down into the box. Used a single piece of EPDM per straight run. Replaced the shingles. Sealed all the joints with EPDM goo (don't remember what it was). Our 'expert' was on his 3 or 4th EPDM'ed gutter. The first one of which was over 15 years old and (he said) still trouble free. I had no idea if the EPDM was appropriate or not. Looks like the consensus is that copper is better.
jt8
First choice is wood epoxy.
second is copper.
Whoever used asphalt crap just hastened the demise.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
You lost me, piffin. Wood epoxy to fix bad spots in the wood, or wood epoxy as liner material? First use I can understand, second one is new to me.
jt8
Epoxy resin
I've done this omn a few.
Git rot is a brand name of one that cures slowly so it penetrates wood fibre. Dig out loose poor wood, then use the Gitrot , then fill with minwax wood filler. This results in a smooth, hard inner surface with the joints bnound together well. The problem now is that any polyester resin doesn't take UV rays well, so you need to paint the inner surface then with epoxy deck paint.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That Git Rot sounds like a cement-type compound to reinforce wood. I assume you would still have to use regular wood to patch the holes?
We had widened the bad spots (I wanted to be sure all the rotted area was bye-bye) and then replaced the bad section with pressure treated pine.
Much like the EPDM, I didn't know if the pressure treated was the best option, however since I knew they would be painting the house the next summer, I figured they could paint the pressure treated by then and it would blend right in.
On a side note, two things about EPDM:
1. If you can round your cuts, they seem less inclined to tear
2. We tried cutting with scissors and with a utility knife, but discovered by far the easiest cutting tool was a doo-dad someone got from a fabric store. It looks a lot like a pizza cutter, but is VERY sharp and is designed to cut fabric. If anyone is curious I will see if the doo-dad has an offical name.
jt8
That is called a rotary cutter. My wife uses one for her quilting.
The Gitrot is a thin expoxy that will seep into the wood fibre.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Copper, unless cedar, then lead coated copper or just lead.
Turne coated steel, painted well, is also an option.
Curly
Restoring the past for the future.
Yeah, well , lemme think about this one a minute.
15 secs
30 secs
45 secs
What's that orangy colored metal called? Oh, yeah. COPPER.
This is one of the things in restoration that should only be done by some one with experience or the cell # of someone with experience. The new OHJ has a brief article in it about relining box gutters. All I got from it is, I like a better scaffold set up than the guy in the article is using. If it's hot when you're installing the liner, it's expanded. Bend it tight. If it's cold, bend it loose. Pre-tin your joints. Never drive a nail thru the liner. Hold it down with cleats. Wear glasses if you need 'em.
The general thought about box gutters is that they're a design flaw. They're not. They are usually out of sight and they didn't get maintained properly. A hundred year old house probably needs new gutter liners. It's probably had the roof replaced 4-5 times. If it's done right, it'll last another 100 years.
Edited 9/3/2004 7:34 am ET by greencu
"This is one of the things in restoration that should only be done by some one with experience "
Well we first tried to sub it out. Bids were for: scraping out the old, putting new liner in, and fixing the box on two rotted corners.
Bid #1 - $32k
Bid #2 - $27k
Bid #3 - $37k
(I think #2 was using tin, #3 was using copper, don't know what #1 was using). Which is why we ended up going with a semi-experienced 'expert' and took his advise on the EPDM. Ended up doing it for about $5k (traded labor with 'expert', he had interior painting he wanted help with).
Probably the most difficult part of it was access. We didn't have enough scaffolding to run up to the gutter (about 30' up) down the length of the house, so we ended up using scaffolding and a 40' boom (rental).
Terrible thing to say, but it wasn't my money or my house, so that really takes quite a bit of pressure off (me). But since I like old houses, I do want as much info on built-in gutters as I can get, because they can be a deciding factor for a future house purchase. Visually I like them, but financially I have to see them as a $5k repair (with a bunch of manhours) or a $30k sub. If I drop $30k on the gutters, it is very unlikely that I'll get my $$ back out of the house.
Is there an up to date definitive source for re-lining these gutters?
The Copper Developvent Association sells a manual that covers about every architectural application (http://www.copper.org/). SMACNA has a manual that covers the stuff in the CDA and has references to other metals (http://www.smacna.org/bookstore/). I don't understand the vast difference in price between the copper and tin prices. The labor is the same and the terne (tin) is not much cheaper than copper, plus you have to paint the terne. I get about $50/lin ft to fabricate and install the copper liner. I'm assuming that the re-line prices included some repair carpentry which is normally necessary. That's one of the problems with EPDM. If the gutter has been leaking, there is rot below the metal. If the metal is rusted thru, the rubber won't stick. It also does not conform to the shape of the gutter box very well (it might look good when it's first installed, but it soon starts to loosen). I've never seen EPDM work for more than 2-3 yrs, but maybe I never get to see the jobs that worked if there are any.
because they can be a deciding factor for a future house purchase. I work a lot in historic districts and I've seen many people jump in and buy a house they cannot afford to restore. I've also worked on houses that were restored with loving care and seen the owners make a good profit on their investment.
How many lin ft of gutter are we talking about? $5K seems like a lot to slap $200 worth of rubber in.
OK. The Versailles job is lookin a whole lot better...let's talk.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I had been guessing it was going to cost $5-10k to sub the gutters. So you can imagine my surprise when they come back with such large numbers. The first guy was the only one that went into why his bid was so high: Labor.
He said by the time they pulled up 3 courses of shingles, scrapped out the old asphalt and tin, repaired water damage, re-lined, and then re-attached the 3 courses of shingles, the labor would be outrageous.
The biggest expense of the $5k was the boom. The local ones were out, so paid a premium to have one brought in. I think the ticket on that item ran $1500-2000 (delivered and picked up). Probably averaged around $100/day (we had it 2-3 weeks). First time we used one of them. I had to wonder if we wouldn't have been better off BUYING a boom and then being able to use it on countless other projects (or sell it when we were done).
As for the lin ft, I don't remember the feet, but I can probably find out how much rubber was purchased. Bought in rolls and then trimmed to size (so the gutter ft can be estimated). And just about the time you start complaining about the price of the EPDM, you find out what the ADHESIVE costs! Wheew! Bought it in 5 gallon buckets from a roofing supply.
jt8
Copper is best. FWIW, the gutters are also known as "Yankee Gutters" in these parts (New England). Had a client with a nice Victorian home, who had 150' of yankee gutters, and instead of going with my quote to rebuild them, put on ugly white vinyl gutters, which will most likely be gone come next Winter.
Joe
Renaissance Restorations
Antique & Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
Actually, the OHJ article was about yankee gutters, which are not quite the same as box or built-in gutters. Yankees are built on top of the roof, built-in gutters are cut into the roof. They both serve the same purpose, obviously, but are actually two different animals.
For the last three years I've been doing that in a commercial complex with five one story long buildings with galvanized gutters built into the overhang. Worse yet, all gutters are almost dead level, and had downspouts about every 40 -50 feet so I added extra downspouts. The roofing is metal standing seam so I don't have to worry about the abrasive action from shingle granules. I used heavy gauge aluminum sleeves. Sealed them in cleaned gutters by setting them in a wet bed of trowelable elastomeric compound. But first I sprayed the existing gutters with the same material used to undercoat cars and trucks - comes in aresol cans. So far not one leak.
John:
I had the box gutters relined at my house with 16oz copper about 11 years ago at a cost of $7,250 which did not include necessary wood repairs. I did quite a bit of research before having the work done and learned that the following products are best in order of longevity: Lead-coated copper, copper, stainless steel, terne, and then EDPM. My box gutters are still trouble free to this day (other than being a pain to clean 27 ft above the ground).
Stan