Hey gang…..just kinda thinkin` out loud here.
My business is located in a small town here in southern NY. Most of my jobs are right here in town…a good 75%. That being the case, I often find myself getting calls from freinds and neighbors….often times neighbors who`ve become freinds. Not close freinds, as I do all that I can to avoid working for those. But, often is the case where I come to know a client outside of the work environment…..within the schools….through Little League…etc.
I`m wondering if you all have a point at which you`ll determine that a freindship is colliding with a business relationship? And if so, what do you do about it.
Case in point…
I have a client whom I`ve done several projects for over the past five years or so. They own an older home which I know they have planned continued renovations as finances allow. Over the years we`ve gotten to know one another a bit better than merely client/contractor. I`ve coached her kids….our daughters go to school together…we`re on the PTA…..blah, blah, blah. As freindly as we are, I`m attempting to reserve a certain distance that allows professionalism.
They called me two weeks ago, asking if I was interested in doing some painting at their house while they were away for a week. I`m not a painter by trade and rarely take on painting jobs…..buuuut…they`re good clients and my schedule was light. She expressed a desire to have me do it, as she really didn`t feel comfortable with anyone else being in her home while they were away.
Anyway…..I gave them what I felt was a fair price, and they accepted. Reiterating that although my price was a bit higher than another estimate, she just felt better having me in the house. I did the job last week, and it was a bit more involved than I had planned. Nothing major….basically a ceiling that needed a bit more than the coat of paint I had planned. I`m feeling a bit tentative about going to them for more money……(a) because of the growing freindship, and (b) because they weren`t there to witness the problem. I`m on the fence here as I know that if I just keep my mouth shut and eat it, I`ll continue to work for them on future projects…several of which we`re already planning, and because the salary cut I took to paint won`t be any more realistic if I add in for the extra work. In other words….it aint gonna make or break me.
Am I allowing this “freindship” to cloud my business sense? Or do you guys also “eat it” at times knowing there`s plenty more down the road?
FREE SANCHO RON
Replies
Unless the ceiling happened to be in the Sistine Chapel, I'd eat this one. Big difference between knowing there's future work, and being promised future work. I know that I'm wrong in principle.... but my gut says that on this one it's better to eat it for more reasons than just the future work. Truth is.... you gave 'em the price, right? Did you look at it first? Been there, done that. How much money are you talking about anyway?
Like I said.....it won`t break me.....I already took the major hit from carpenters rates to painters.
Feel awkward goin` back at em when they weren`t there to see it....I fear that trust they have might be tested.FREE SANCHO RON
That sucks Jay. Not like I'm loaded or anything, but for the sake of a coat of paint on a ceiling.... I think I'd eat it. If we were talking about a couple days wages or something I'd feel differently. Just my 2 cents.
I'm curious-What was the problem?
If it was something that was not forseeable and not due to my lack of inspection or experience, I would make them aware of what I went through, but not ask for more money.
Not sure if thats right or not, just what I would do.
-Steve
Like I said.....nothing major. A ceiling that was in need of some scraping, turned out to be a good deal more than originally appeared. It looked as though a small area was affected.....turned out to be better than half the ceiling. Lost the better part of a day (over the course of two) attentioning.
FREE SANCHO RON
Jay,
You are not one of the people I would expect to hear this from.
It's bothering you, and I think you allresdy know the answer to your question.
While it may not be the best practice, I try to build in gimmes in any job. I can't stand to see clients get nickeled and dimed to death for the littlest stuff.
It's good will, no doubt about it. I would look at it this way; that job you did for them last year where you made a nice buck, take it out of that, at least mentally.
My son see's me give stuff away all the time, he jokes with me, constantly whispering in my ear; "Nice guys finish last".
I believe that there is a happy medium between being a doormat and a complete scrooge.
I could think of worse ways to make/loose money. So what'd you make, $19.00 an hour?
Ain't gonna make ya or break ya.
This clients loves you, trusts you with their home, extend the trust back, that it will even out.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
yourcontractor@aol.com
I agree....I often include "gimmies" into the overall cost of a project....rehanging and installing some hardware to a pair of bypass closet doors that her husband attempted on his own was one such on this project....I guess I`m just overly concerning myself with the fear that our freindship is clouding my view.
Which is why I came to you guys. Can always count on the straight dope here at BT.
Thanks for the input.FREE SANCHO RON
I would just tell them about the problem, but not ask for extra money. If they offer to pay for the extra work give them a fair price. If not don't worry about it. I often throw in a favor or two for customers (nothing big). I always make up for it with future work.
Kipherr
jay.. i like kipher;s advice
this is after the fact.. you have to weigh the risk / reward factor..
you risk them doubting their judgement in hiring you..
the reward is a short term financial advantage...
if you had a clause in your contract and had a sit down before about unforeseen conditions... you might pull it off..
here ... i'd explain what happened and tell them there will be no extra charge...
you might get it back in spades from them or a referral from them.. this is how you build relationships with them adn their friends to the point where you don't have to bid competitively.. it's all about trustMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I definetly plan to alert them to the problem. Will most likely explain that I can`t warrenty the ceiling in question, but didn`t want to go through with what may have been necessary without their OK.
Thanks for the input.FREE SANCHO RON
I gave them what I felt was a fair price, and they accepted.
Jay, you gave them a fair price, now stick to it. They accepted your price, even though it was higher. If you jack it on them now, you are using your friendship to leverage them. If you had offered the higher price in the first place, they could have saved face by hiring the other guy and simply told you that you were significantly higher, no hurt feelings, but come back and do some more carpentry.
Don't get the reputation that you don't stand by your word.
If they changed the scope, then you can change the price. You don't mention the scope changing....
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Jay, I forgot to mention: put yourself in their shoes.
Also, how would you feel if they changed the price that they wanted to pay you. Instead of the amount you agreed on, they simply decided that they'd pay you 10% less.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I really wouldn't call it "eating it". I would call it a learning experience for the next time. You said painting was not something you normally do, so I'd say that you learned a lot from this job, and the information you learned is going to be valuable the next time you bid a paint job.
You have an opportunity here that few people ever get. You have a client that hired you, even though you were higher than the rest because THEY TRUSTED YOU and felt COMFORTABLE WITH YOU. Don't give them a reason to change their mind about that. If you did the job for the price you said you'd do it for, and they are happy with the work, then you WILL be the person they call whenever more work comes up (that you are able to do). You have now established a great realtionship with this client. They like you, they trust you, and they like your work. You will be the contractor from here on out.
People really want to stick with someone they like, and trust. It gives them a "comfort zone" for them to operate out of, and they do not want to lose that comfort zone. New contractors/tradesmen always make people leave their comfort zone and stress about the outcome of the project. They don't like new. They want to stay with what they know, and feel comfortable with. And now, that's you.
I'd say you just made a life long client. Treat them like such, and you will have a great relationship with them.
Just my humble opinion...
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Just sounds like a good ongoing business relationship where everything will come out ok in the end.
Sounds like you know where you are going to go with it.
Keep the business and keep the clients.
"There is no such thing as ex-wives"
You can't change your price after the fact unless you specifically stated that there could be something unforseen. Even then, it doesn't sit well with customers, friend or not. You chose to work for painters wages so that has nothing to do with anything. So you didn't get paid for a few hours of work, we call that good will. Just the mention of your name at the next cocktail party and the nice job you did will be worth the few bucks.
There really shouldn't be any problems working for friends and relatives as long as you know what you are doing and the prices are agreed on up front. If price changes occur due to unseen circumstances, then you don't really know what you're doing and should stay away from friends. Experienced contractors know where problems can occur and state those in the beginning. If you give an allowance of $500 for something that could happen and then it ends up costing $700 you look like a heel. If you said $1000 and it cost $700 you are a hero. Just as an example, anyone who has ever painted a ceiling knows that it takes two coats minimum to get a decent looking job. You will look like a heel if you tell the customer, "I thought I could do it with one, but.." Sorry to be direct but that's the way it is.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I can't give fixed prices on remodeling. Something always happens, and it's hardly ever anything that makes the job easier, or less expensive.I tell clients up front that I'm only giving an estimate. It's just too hard to tell in an older home, what has gone on before me.After that, when a problem does arise, I have the option to upcharge, or not... Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I appreciate direct....its what I`ve come to expect when I put myself out there, on here.
Thanks.FREE SANCHO RON
Thanks for the input guys.....I gotta say....I`m a bit surprised at the overwhelming responses suggesting I "eat it" thus far.FREE SANCHO RON
I think the advice you have gotten already covers the initial question. But one thing that struck me was your statement that you already took a hit going from carpenters rates to painters rates. Do you charge differently based on the trade you are doing? We price everything at the same rate. By that I mean no difference for a plumbing job vs a paint job. Same hourly rate. Just curious why you would price it different, same costs are involved as far as your overhead. DanT
If you're a typical carpenter, and charged them painter's rate - you were overcharging them from the git-go. ;+)6 16 17 97 99
LOL!!! If you knew how slow a painter I was, you`d know it weren`t true.
I do nice work.....just takes me twice as long.
My brother is the painter.....he`s seen me paint.....doesn`t think I should do it in my own home! LOLFREE SANCHO RON
Same rates? Couldn`t get away with that around here. The average plumber gets somewhere in the neighborhood of $35/hr......painters are doing well at $20/hr. Carpentry, depending on the degree of difficulty falls somewhere in between.
Had I figured the job......three days @ my typical rate, it would have added almost 75% to the cost of the job....and I certainly wouldn`t have gotten it.
Rates are part of the reason I don`t normally take painting jobs. I`d have to get a hell of a lot faster just to break even.FREE SANCHO RON
jaybird - "Same rates? Couldn`t get away with that around here. The average plumber gets somewhere in the neighborhood of $35/hr......painters are doing well at $20/hr. Carpentry, depending on the degree of difficulty falls somewhere in between."
Whoa! those are typical Wages not Rates you are talking there. (at least I hope they are) I would think any plumber painter or carpenter charging those numbers as Billing Rates would be in the gutter and out of business before the week was out.
It's also a little bit distressing to me that there are hints in what you've written there that you are probably selling your services on price and not on value. There was obvious value that this client-friend perceived in having you do the painting for them even though painting isn't your specialty and you didn't recognize and capitalize on it.
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
You`re right......I did mean wages.
You are also correct in assuming I sold myself on the service rather than the value. Knowing this customer as I do, I thought it wiser to take the job itself for what I believed it was actually worth....and strengthen my reputation with them towards future projects.
I often take mitigating circumstances into account when estimating individual jobs. May not be the best business sense.....but I`ve found it has worked for me thus far.FREE SANCHO RON
JAYBIRD - "I thought it wiser to take the job itself for what I believed it was actually worth....and strengthen my reputation with them towards future projects."
Well I'd be very careful about that you certainly don't want to strengthen your reputation for being cheap and inexpensive or the low cost provider.
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
You`re right....which is why I made sure that my price wasn`t the lowest.
I typically fall somewhere in the middle. The majority of my clients are upper middle class. These folks fall more closely to solid middle class. They receive the same care and attention as any of my other regulars.....just get a bit of a better price. They were one of the first to take a chance on the "new guy" in town....another of those intangables that goes into the mix.FREE SANCHO RON
someone else already said the same but I would follow it this up as an opprotunity, you underestimated the amount of work it would take (your mistake) you set the price and they will pay the price that you set, you can't come back and ask for more -- bad business. BUT, you can tell them that you made a mistake in you estimate and that he work was more than you had planned (don't ask for more money, and if they offer it decline and explain that it was your mistake and next time you'll be more careful.) You'll gain a customer for a long time and if they talk about the work that you do (and you know they will) they will always use the most valueable word you could ask for in a mouth to mouth reference trustworth/honest/etc. You will get your days pay back several times over.
On another note: if you do "free" work for someone knowing that they will tell their friends about you good will and honest/trustworthiness,,, that would be a good marketing ploy -along the same lines as "the first one's free". And as marketing, it becomes a business expense, and as a business expense you claim it different on taxes,,, don't you? Mostly a question I am not in the trades, and I don't know much about tax info.
I agree with the majority of posters that the estimated price has to stand and that you are establishing goodwill that will pay you back in the future, if not with these clients then with others.
As far as free work being a tax deduction, it does not need to be expensed as marketing. It is simply a reduction of your income. This is not a goal many of us strive for but it will reduce your taxes. I guess that is called looking on the bright side.
That actually got a laugh out loud from me when I read it. And it got me thinking if the work we "did for free" actually qualified as a tax deduction wouldn't all "the jobs we didn't get" also qualify too?The other thing that got me smiling was I think if I recall correctly Jay is from Pelham which while a small town is right smack in the middle surrounded by some really big towns and small cities; Mt Vernon and New Rochelle, To me I live up county in the "small town" of Katonah and I think of the southern part of the county that is below I-287 as one big huge town. It all a matter of perspective I guess. I have a friend from college who still to this day likes to say that she lives in the small town of Greenwich Village!
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Same rates? Couldn`t get away with that around here.
Sure U could ... either you get the job or you don't.
Think about it ... you lowered your prices ... got the job ... and are now here complaining that ya "lost" some money and aren't sure if there's a good way to get it back, Right?
complaining's not the best choice of wording ... but ...
Don't you have contacts with other subs?
I don't have a trim price ... a tile price ... a cabinet price ... a framing price ...
I have a "Jeff Price". How much it costs me to stand there for an hour using what ever tool gets that job done. I'm the same guy .. with the same expenses ... same wife and kid I gotta feed the same food too ... so why do I care that a painter is cheaper? Appearantly he got a cheaper wife and kid!
Me ... here's what I'd do. I'd say ... sure ... I "offer" a painting service. I'll call my painted Dave "the applied coating specialist" to come over. Then .. Dave would tell me a number ... and I'd add a percent to that ... or .. if they're good friends ... maybe no percent ... and that'd be that.
When they say that want me in the house ... I'd say ... I know. That's why I'm recommending Dave, instead of the yellow pages. I've worked around him enough to trust him to babysit my kid if I have to run out to the store ... so I'm also going to trust him enough to recommend he be in your house unattended. I wouldn't recommend anyone I didn't fully trust.
OK .. if I had to make that whole speach ... it's adding 20%.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Sure U could ... either you get the job or you don't.
Well yes....of course....but I meant if I actually wanted the job I couldn`t charge the same and expect to get it.
My carpentry is worthy of my rates. A faux finish might garner similar....but the spackle and cover with a fresh coat won`t.
As I said....this was a special case, for a special client. Typically I sub all painting to my brother.
FREE SANCHO RON
Edited 2/28/2005 8:08 pm ET by JAYBIRD
Edited 2/28/2005 8:10 pm ET by JAYBIRD
Jay, IMHO that's what a digital camera is for. If you had taken shots you could let them know exactly why you did the extra work-if they had been there during the job you would have been able to give them a choice. You went ahead and fixed it. You can bill them-I would suggest allowing it paid over the next couple of months by post dated checks... or you can eat it and put it into a later job or two or three.
Upto you Jay.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Actually, I did take a few photos. I wanted to show them what I hit whether I charged them or not.FREE SANCHO RON
Good job Jay... that's what makes it an investment rather than a loss.
L
FREE SANCHO!GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Im not going to read the thread .
You sold your butt in the bid and did the work. Thats what bids are for and if it was an overage you wouldnt be worried about it. Sometimes we finish our bids a lot quicker than we planned . Do we offer overages?
From a business point of view you are like the stunt man. You were paid to jump and you jumped . That should be the end of story.
Now , considering the kind of customer they are ,........... it still doesnt entrer in .
Ive heard a lot of stories where people put there car in the shop for a new motor or tranny. If they quote a price thats written and should be even if its not , they are gonna sell me that motor or tranny for that price or theres gonna h^ll to pay.
If you went up on me after you "bid " the job. Its the last time you would see the job or the next one. If you called me and said you uncovered somthing that wasnt in the bid , then we should talk at that point . Not after the job is done.
Tim Mooney
If you called me and said you uncovered somthing that wasnt in the bid , then we should talk at that point . Not after the job is done.
This was one of those very rare instances where contacting the HO wasn`t possible.....I needed to make the decision there and then. Typically, the moment anything out of the ordinary arises, I clear it with the client before procedding.FREE SANCHO RON
Well, I won't give you the "need to sell your rate speech" nor the "you can't be in business at those rates and survive" speech. But.........I live in an area where cost of living is quite low also and can sell $50 an hour based on service, quality and trust. I do have to advertise to stay busy with 2 guys/trucks but I can do it. You might want to look your deal over as you might be able to do better. DanT
Am I allowing this "freindship" to cloud my business sense? Or do you guys also "eat it" at times knowing there`s plenty more down the road?
That's a hard call. You might want to think about it a different way. If you had subbed this out to a painter, and he came back with an "extra" for the job, how would you handle that? Would you negotiate, or would you pass it along to the customer.
After all, there're fair prices and there're fair prices. If it cost you money to finish (made less than break-even), then, you probably should see if they can afford a bit more. If you did not make your expected "margin," then the question is will futrure work make up for the difference? If you only made 80% of the profit you expected, that's one thing. If you worked for 50% of your hourly rate, that's another entirely.
After reading through a bunch of this thread I think you're already on the right track of what to do.
I read somewhere that people are something like 6 times more likely to tell others about what they didn't like than they are about what they did like. Anyone who does well in a small town must be doing well for his customers.
I like what James D had to say about it being a learning experience.
To make it easier to swallow, I usually think of such things as a percentage of my gross. Thought of in that way it's such a tiny fraction that it can be thought of as a bit of unplanned advertising.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
To make it easier to swallow, I usually think of such things as a percentage of my gross. Thought of in that way it's such a tiny fraction that it can be thought of as a bit of unplanned advertising.
I like that....good point.FREE SANCHO RON
This has happened to me recently.
Looked at a job, gave a proposal and was accepted. Fair for them and a good profit. BUT ..... Even though the joists looked good, once we got the porch floor stripped, I had to change the joists. Totally unforseen. Homeowners out of town. Usually I would shut the job down and wait, but I could not - it was a working Bed & Breakfast.
I finished the job (properly) and took all the pictures. I also wrote them a letter outlining my dilemma, and the changed amount. If they agree, I am paid back for the extra time & materials. If not, I will make a little less.
It's a hard call, and I am sorry for the idea I may have hijacked the thread.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada