Replies

1. 
   JeffBuck | Jan 17, 2004 07:17am | #1

   I'll bite ... what's a patron-based model?

   Jeff

   Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

1. 
   NathanW | Jan 17, 2004 09:13am | #2

   Hi Jeff

   Never had the pleasure of speaking with your virtual reality before, but I've appreciated your presence on the board over the years... glad to meet you.

   Well, I arrived at this term after bouncing the fantasy I have running around in my head off an architect/builder whom I respect. His view of the relationship I have in my mind put my prospective client into the position of "patron"

   Got a call to propose some solutions for sagging gates at an estate. Did some concept drawings of gates without seeing the place. Big place, and lavished with art, inside and out. Thinking that if I can hit inspiration on these pieces, perhaps more work will come shortly if not immediately. Looking to minimize the bookkeeping and eliminate the contracting, focusing on design and fabrication. Would like to work from suppliers on his accounts, coordinate needed subs but have them billed to him, and operate more along the lines of a working designer/consultant.

   The idea is he keeps me working as long or as short as he wants, I get almost complete freedom to design functional art, and draw an agreed upon amount of pay based on the time spent on the project, whether the time is concept generation, out-sourcing, sub-management, fabrication or clean-up. With no money flowing from him to me to the subs and the tax agencies, I'm free to do what I do best, knowing that at any time I may be looking for a job.

   I don't hope to have explained it well enough. G'head, ask a question, or call me a dreamer...:)

   Nathan

1. 
   toast953 | Jan 17, 2004 09:30am | #3

   G'head, ask a question   where, oh where, have you been Nathan?? hope all is well. Question(s), is HO going to write the check to you. Who going to warranty the work. Ahh I got it,, I think, isn't there a Saint named for the word Patron?? take care Nathan, be safe out there,, Jim Jensen  ps. my roof project went exceptionally good, ie no body stepped thru the ceiling, got the sag of 1 3/8" out da da da, and still doing work for those people on and off

1. 
   NathanW | Jan 18, 2004 09:59am | #6

   Jim,

   I've been laying low, trying to take care of the essentials. Haven't been a chat mood for some time, but it seems like whenever I'm tackling something meaty, I end up on this board. Must mean something about the quality of the folks around here :>)

   Sorry, but you're going to have to refresh my forty year-old memory...how long ago was it we spoke? You in Colorado? If so, I think it was a couple years back, huh?

   HO or someone of his choosing would write the checks. Warranty...now that's something I didn't think about. Good question. Hope the work is of such quality that a warranty would be redundant...but that would be good thing to have for everyone's peace of mind. Thanks.

   Hope all is well, glad to hear you're still about the place. What's keeping you busy these days?

1. 
   toast953 | Jan 19, 2004 08:10am | #10

   Sorry, but you're going to have to refresh my forty year-old memory...how long ago was it we spoke? You in Colorado? If so, I think it was a couple years back, huh?           Nathan, I'am in Arizona, and yes, it was a couple of years ago, as a matter of fact, it, (my first post) was a question , ie- how much weight will  double top plates support, 16" centers on studs,(in between stud bays). You asked me "whatda doing" I responded it was a mess, ie 2x6 df, stick framed roof rafters, spanning 16', 24" centers, with concrete roof tile at 11lbs psf.      My work , Nathan, is still residential, though I'am seeking out the small, very small jobs, for I'am a one man band. My seeking is usually no futher than the answering machine when I get home. Be safe out there Jim J                           

2. 
   NathanW | Jan 19, 2004 09:37am | #11

   Jim

   Seem to remember something about that...hope whatever I said was well thought-out. Good to hear things are steady, you're healthy, and your in your element~!!

   Nathan

   Am going to be busy, and want to thank everyone for the thoughts. Maybe see you in the tav this weekend...

   Edited 1/19/2004 1:38:25 AM ET by WEGEMER

3. 
   NathanW | Mar 14, 2004 10:10am | #12

   Thot I'd resurrect this thread...after a job that was run under a very close approximation of what I mentioned. The jist of it was this:

   Client carried the accounts (a Mastercard given to me) for materials, and all sales tax was paid up front. I was out of state, so no sales tax was charged for my labor. I gave no bids or estimates, only gave advice concerning the amount of work we were getting ourselves into. This was difficult, as every piece was custom, and utilized techniques and materials that were new to me. All work from design to clean up was done on a flat hourly rate. Client was then free to initiate any changes, additions or subtractions, at any time. If requested, I would cost the change regarding labor or material, but after a few changes that resulted in material and labor charges as forecasted by gut instinct, he stopped paying me to research and trusted my experience.

   The result of all this was that he paid me to do what I do best, which is design and fabricate. We accomplished a tremendous amount of work, and the design/build process became a fluid, dynamic thing in itself that was a joy, as he became closely involved in it, with the desire to not impede progress in any way. The nature of the project was tenant improvement, fixtures and signage for a new retail store, and fixtures for trade show dislplays.

   The experience was the best I've ever had in the construction field, and I realize the incredible amount of trust he placed in me. Throughout the job, I tried to keep that in mind, and gave the project just about everything I had. We worked 40 of the 42 days we were on location. During the process, the clients left town for six days to do a trade show in another state, with the pieces that were designed, fabbed and finished literally moments before loading into a truck to ship. One of the pieces for the trade show was a 28' long, 7' high, four-piece rack for rug display, and was assembled for the first time at the convention center. It worked! (Whew!)

   Now, for sure, I've had clients in the past where this would have turned into a nightmare. But, after successfully doing one, I will for sure be looking to do this again. Seat-of-the-pants, catch a fire and build like a madman. Too much fun.

   Nathan

4. 
   xMikeSmith | Mar 14, 2004 04:40pm | #13

   nathan.. sounds exciting and fun..

    now .. ddi you make any money ?  what happened to YOUR business while this was progressing ?Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

5. 
   NathanW | Mar 14, 2004 10:06pm | #14

   Mike

   Concerning making money, I bankrupted myself a short while ago, and I appreciate the bottom line more than ever. The client paid directly for:

   All travel expenses, including wear and tear on the van

   Lodging, meals, entertainment

   Replacement of bits, blades etc

   Communications such as faxes, cell phone, internet

   The only item I'm aware of that I wasn't able to account for was wear and tear on the tools themselves. The hourly rate I charged was a few dollars above the hourly wages I was making as an employee just before the job started. I lost my medical insurance as a result of being laid off, so that is another item that I may have gone backwards a bit on. That benefit was about 300 p month in value. I'm aware that I have accounting costs/labor to make up to deal with the IRS now.

   My business? I quit it as it crashed on me a few years ago. I tried to run a business during a chaotic and crisis filled period of my life, and made bad, bad choices. I could write a small book about the bad choices I made (jobs that were destined to lose money from the start, turning down jobs that would have made money, putting work in front of employees that weren't qualified to perform it, lack of accounting and reporting to tax agencies, all in all, a real disaster)

   I hope I've learned a bit about myself, and what I'm capable of doing. I don't have the heart to run a business from a desk like perhaps you, or others that I respect and rely upon sometimes to provide paychecks for me. I'm looking hard at what I do best, and am trying to find a niche where I can find the joy necessary to make up for the drudgery (for me) end of a business. Forgive me if I come off as arogant, but I've run into very, very few people on the payroll who bring the level of passion and commitment to what they do as I do. I'm trying to find a way to turn that into increased income, above what I'm finding I can make working for someone else. The thing is...I know people who are much better at woodworking than me. I'm very, very average in woodworking skills. But I seem to be able spark ideas very readily, and am known as the "idea man". Very few people want to recieve ideas from someone on the payroll, as we are just "carpenters".

   So, I am trying to put together ####package of design, fabrication, management, problem solving, marketing, photography, and fun, to solve problems for people. I am a one-man show right now, but love to work with people who drive themselves past their known boundaries.

   How it's going to work out, I don't know. I won't make the same mistakes again, and have realized that every job carries responsibility that isn't necessarily fun...but am learning that evey aspect of work well done is satisfying. In the future, I'll dot the i's and cross the t's, because without doing that, I'll be on the payroll, probably following someone elses (usually) poorly drawn, shortsighted ideas.

   No, I'm not manic

   Taking it slow this time

   Nathan

6. 
   xMikeSmith | Mar 15, 2004 01:12am | #15

   nathan.. i knew a pretty successful guy.. not the brightest bulb in the marquee either..

    but he had two lumber yards and door shop..

   he told me it gets easier and more successful as you develop experience.. the key,  he told me, is thinking about how to make money every day, enjoying what you do, being honest in your relations ..

    i keep trying.. and so far , he was right... not that you have to obsess about money.. but more along the lines of  getting paid for what you do..or getting paid well enough for what you do that you can absorb the bad with the good..

   now if  i only knew 15 years ago what i know now.... hah, hah, hahMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   davidmeiland | Jan 17, 2004 11:57pm | #4

   In this scenario you're more like a project manager for a contractor than a contractor yourself. Typical contractor arrangement is to run all of the money through their books and charge a markup. That markup goes to cover insurance, warranty, tools, equipment, and a million other things a job needs. If you're just getting a wage, are you still taking the same risk as you would if you were a contractor? What if there's a big warranty issue or a mistake that takes many hours and many dollars to fix? Are you covering that out of your hourly fee?

   My suggestion is that you actually become an employee of the owner, so that you're not on the hook for the risk. Work at his direction and get a check minus taxes. He pays everyone and he's the contractor. Your scenario blurs the line and does not compensate you for the risk you're probably taking, unless your hourly fee is huge. If something does go wrong, you may find out that the owner has quite a few lawyers who want you to fix it.

   That's the worst case. Otherwise it sounds pretty good. I like clients who have huge gates down by the road.

1. 
   NathanW | Jan 18, 2004 10:12am | #7

   David

   Thanks a bunch for chiming in on this one.

   I get the feeling that he has very little time or desire to manage these kinds of projects. Perhaps he already has a company that could put me on the books, but I'd like to have a system in place that could accomodate additional clients.

   I guess the issue of the warranty could initially be looked at from the view of my desire to build a long-term relationship with this gentleman. If there are issues with warranty, I won't have his business anymore. The subs, if any, are going to have to be the ones worried about warranty. So I guess I'll have to clearly identify the risks for this project and address them individually. Good point. Injury to myself or someone who collaborates with me, damage to his property, injury to someone on his property. The warranty issues are not a big concern of mine, as the quality of the stuff I build is top-notch, for what it is.

   Were there any scenarios you had in mind besides product failure?

   'good evening

3. 
   JeffBuck | Jan 18, 2004 03:20am | #5

   wow ..

   that's gonna take some time to wrap my head around ...

   but sounds good on paper ...

   not a bad job if you can get it.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

1. 
   NathanW | Jan 18, 2004 10:19am | #8

   that's gonna take some time to wrap my head around ..

   I know. In the meantime, looking for the best possible job around here. Going to be talking to the contractor who built the place in a bit. Going to Sun Valley for a couple of weeks to build/install store fixtures for a place there. Wahoooo, my first real working vacation! Hope to vacate the work place to ski once , while there.

   Be an idiot if I didn't, eh?

   Nathan

2. 
   YesMaam27577 | Jan 18, 2004 03:07pm | #9

   Perhaps you mean a business model a bit like medical practitioners in ancient China. Patrons paid a monthly fee to their Doctor, so long as they were well. And if they got sick/hurt, the payments stoped until wellness was regained.

   Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.