Replies

1. 
   Sphere | Jun 26, 2008 08:16pm | #1

   I've never seen miter open on BB. I'd go for it. Biscuts or get the festool Domino..Tool time!

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

   "We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
   Me.

1. 
   mmoogie | Jun 26, 2008 08:28pm | #2

   >>Biscuts or get the festool Domino..Tool time!<<I'm looking for an excuse to get the Domino, but wouldn't the hidden drawbolts be better for this situation?

1. 
   Sphere | Jun 26, 2008 09:04pm | #3

   Depends. True Butcher Block end grain up or laminated strips?

   I am assuming strips ( AKA Bally Block) then yup. End grain tops could have issues being as they expand and shrink two dimensions.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

   "We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.

1. 
   mmoogie | Jun 26, 2008 09:20pm | #4

   >>I am assuming strips ( AKA Bally Block) then yup.<<yes, laminated strips. Lost on the meaning of your "yup". Did you mean yes, use drawbolts?Steve

1. 
   Sphere | Jun 26, 2008 09:33pm | #5

   Yes, you can draw bolt it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

   "We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.

2. 
   mmoogie | Jun 26, 2008 09:38pm | #6

   Thanx.

2. 
   Biff_Loman | Jun 27, 2008 01:47am | #7

   Yes. . . once you align with dominoes. ;-)

1. 
   mmoogie | Jun 27, 2008 04:26am | #8

   >>Yes. . . once you align with dominoes. ;-)<<Right! I knew there was a good reason to get it!I've been thinking about this some more. Why will a miter joint across a 25" wide corner not open with seasonal movement? The counters will shrink and swell from front to back, but not along the grain, hence the joint in theory should want to open at the heel when drier and open at the toe when wetter. Or if It it's effectively clamped and glued at the miter, won't the legs of the counter want to change their angle with the seasons?Steve

   Edited 6/26/2008 9:27 pm by mmoogie

1. 
   Sphere | Jun 27, 2008 04:45am | #9

   As long as it is in a modern conditioned home, and is sealed like Bally Block comes ( I recall it is prefinished) there is not enough variance to alter it enough to open a miter like a deck top rail would.

   Flood the counter? Soak the endgrain /joint? all bets are off.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

   "We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.

2. 
   mmoogie | Jun 27, 2008 05:00am | #10

   Sphere,This is an old house with a somewhat damp fieldstone cellar. They are city people and shut the house down for the winter. I've convinced them to buy and run a dehumidifier in the basement during the summer, but the house will be cold and damp all winter.Steve

3. 
   Sphere | Jun 27, 2008 01:11pm | #12

   In that case I'd be thinking like Spliney. I mean Splinty.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

   "We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.

4. 
   Piffin | Jun 27, 2008 06:35pm | #18

   I use the Boos blocks fo r tops.
   They let you buy it oiled or polyurethened.
   I had one that was a 38" x 50" for an island that moved about 3/8" total with seasonal changes. I anchored it at center and monitor it. and that is in a climate and house that has a lot of change. so in a conditioned house I would not expect a 25" one to move more than 1/8" or so totallIf dryed and sealed. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   Piffin | Jun 27, 2008 06:30pm | #17

   "The counters will shrink and swell from front to back"Only if you anchor the back instead of the front. If it floats, it will swell and shrink from front AND back to center. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   Piffin | Jun 27, 2008 06:27pm | #16

   I do mitre and do it this way -I make and test fit the mitres.I seal the end grain with epoxyI cut a slip dado stopped an inch from the edge and make a slice to fit it. About a 1/4" x 1-1/2" so the dado is 3/4" deep. This is about 1/2" down from top surface. That lets me make the draw bolt joint underneath.No open joints. I did a thread on this about '03 or '04 reasoning things out and being told not to mitre it.I was in that house yesterday. Not a problem since then 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   splintergroupie | Jun 27, 2008 10:07am | #11

   Best chance of holding the miter is a full-length spline, using good quality plywood cut the 'wrong' way (grain in top and bottom ply perpendicular to the joint) and a waterproof glue. You can clamp the front edge of the countertops, then wedge off the walls to get the joint tight...no drawbolts required. Poly glue will do a good job of filling the joint to keep water out and give you a longer open time than an aliphatic resin like Titebond.

   $800 for a Domino is just crazy!

   PS: If you are laminating the strips yourself, you could do a stair-step corner.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/27/2008 3:08 am by splintergroupie

1. 
   Piffin | Jun 27, 2008 06:39pm | #19

   I just used solid maple for my dado spline, but combined it with the drawbolts 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   splintergroupie | Jun 27, 2008 08:24pm | #20

   In that case it was the metal taking the strain and the spline was for alignment.

   If your spline's grain runs parallel to the joint, it can easily split. If the grain runs perpendicular, solid wood splines are a pain to handle since they break readily.

   I like using ply bec it's more stable; maple has a fairly large range of motion itself.

   Different ways...

1. 
   Piffin | Jun 29, 2008 05:06pm | #22

   true dat 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   maverick | Jun 27, 2008 04:42pm | #13

   miter looks better and will net equal movement from both mated pieces.

   Alternate draw bolts and biscuits, no glue. you can place one dowel near the front edge if you like. allowing for movement is critical

   wax the butt ends to deter water. seal the underside of the wood top.

   wood DOES expand/contract  along the grain albeit not nearly as much as across grain

   I make my wood tops from 4/4 stock over 3/4" plywood. fasten the two together by drilling 1/2" holes in the plywood and use screws with fender washers.  snug the screws just tight enough to not inhibit movement

   -many wood tops later and no complaints

1. 
   mmoogie | Jun 27, 2008 05:02pm | #14

   >>will net equal movement from both mated pieces.<<I'm not saying you haven't had success, but I still don't understand understand why it's not a problem.Say the wood moves 1/4 inch across the grain from wet to dry season, and negligibly along the grain. That would change the 45 degree angle on the ends to 45.29 degrees. Why does that not either open the miter or alter the direction of one of the legs of the counter by .58 degrees?Steve

1. 
   maverick | Jun 27, 2008 05:58pm | #15

   you are right about the angle changing with varied moisture content.

    if the miters are bolted the movement will be translated to the opposite ends of the counter top. thats why you need to allow for the movement

   you need to determine what you want to remain true. I would opt for the mitered joint and let the far reaching legs float

   if you were to screw down the opposite ends of the counter top run you would be stressing the miter, possibly causing the joint to fail 

4. 
   Jamwats | Jun 28, 2008 12:29am | #21

   I used a stopped mortise and tenon on one a few years ago with no problems so far.  I just used a slot cutter on the router for the mortise and a straight bit to cut the tenon.  Just make sure the top of that shoulder cut is straight!  I just glued the first few inches on the front and screwed it down tight on the front edge.  On the back edge I used slotted holes and screws with washers.  I left enough space for the wood to move under the backsplash if it needs to.  It's at a family beach house that gets opened up to all that humidity and then closed up with the AC cranked down, so I'm sure that top has been moving.

   I didn't consider a 45 because the kitchen cabinets were planned around the 12' and 8' countertop lengths we were buying.  I didn't have an extra 2' to spare!

   Jamie