Butting granite tile on countertop
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I’m doing a kitchen for a family member and they originally wanted a slab granite countertop. I didn’t really want to deal with that so I talked them into granite tile instead. However, we would now like to butt the tile together with almost zero gaps in between to make it look as much like a slab as possible. One idea we have heard of is sandwiching a bead of silicone, though this is not recommended by the local home center. I’ve heard a little about epoxy, but sounds like way too much trouble. 1/16 grout joints are an option that I favor, but the customer wants to know if we can go tighter. I’m comfortable with grout . . . would it be possible to butt the tiles, and them smear nonsanded grout over the very, very tiny seams? Anything helps . . .
Brian
Replies
I didn't really want to deal with that so I talked them into granite tile instead.
How about what THEY wanted??
So, it's easier to build a countertop and install granite tiles (producing and inferior product imho) than finding someone to fabricate a solid surface top.
Not to mention the fact that you have probably never done one before..........
Can ya tell I'm grumpy today?
If you don't want joints then get solid surface!! Tiles = joints. No matter how hard you try to wish (or silicone) them away!
I think THEY wanted to keep the money in my pocket, so when I said if you want a slab it would be better to find someone else for that part of the kitchen, (for one thing, my truck won't haul a full slab, especially not into the boonies) they said OK then tile would be fine.
My starting this thread shows that I want to give them what they want. Though I'm a carpenter and woodworker by trade, I've done plenty of tile work including a granite top or two. Hope this makes you feel better.Brian
Be sure to let us know how it works out.
Pictures would be nice to.
Brian, you say"(for one thing, my truck won't haul a full slab, especially not into the boonies)"I would put as many as four of the prefabbed 26" countertops in my old toyota 4x4. It does have overload springs but the factory lists payload at around 1800 lbs.You can figure 12 lbs/sq ft for slabs 2cm (3/4") and it may be a little less.If these people plan on being in the house for the long haul get prefab slab countertopsStudy how the corner seams are cut using prefabs when you pick them up. A straight edge, a grinder with a diamond blade and some silicon carbide abrasives and you should be able to do at least a mediocre installation. If you have worked in the trades for a while and care about the quality you should be able to do a great installation.I find tile much more challenging to do well than slabs.I have worked fabricating granite tops for the last ten years and admittedly may be a little unimpressed by them but I see the primary reason for using granite is that it is a solid surface WITHOUT grout joints. If I could tolerate grout joints there is a lot of really cool ceramic/porcelain tile our there.In the bay area 8' x 26" slabs sell as cheap as 50 dollars and go up to 350 dollars for the more exotic colors.As I said KZ kitchens in San Jose has very high quality control and offers a lot of size and color options.If you don't mind a long day of driving you could be there and back home on the same day. If you are still worried about the weight, the nice thing about the smaller prefab slabs are they keep your center of gravity low.You will need to slap together a simple A frame for transport but that could be done in 15 minutes with a handful of screws and some 2 by 4's.Karl
Hope all your granite tiles are exactly the same size.... Don't hold your breath though....
16th is probably going to be about the smallest you can go. If you but them tight I don't think that there will be enough space for unsanded grout.
I personally would not use silicon to grout with hard to tell if you have a good seal.
Like Eric said tile =joints. However a granite tile counter is still nice looking if done well.
Webby
I used unsanded on my own with no spacers between them. The tiles should have a small bevel on the top and that should give you enough to hold the grout. Mine has held up for 4 years, no issues so far. I've never used it but others have posted about using epoxy grout. Good luck
You can sandwich clear silicone caulk between the tiles. Personally, I'm with the others about slab vs tiles, and that tiles = grout lines. But to each his own. The substrate should be rock solid. Scrape the excess silicone with a putty knife and wipe it with paint thinner immedieately. It dries fast and will leave a film if you don't get it clean. Hope it works out.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work - TedsCarpentry.com
Scrape the excess silicone with a putty knife and wipe it with paint thinner immedieately. It dries fast and will leave a film if you don't get it clean. Hope it works out.
If I have 40 sq ft of counter top you are looking at perhaps 80 lin ft of joints to do what you suggested.
You are kidding right? Do you have any idea of what a mess this will be?
I'm not buying it for a second.
Why not encourage people to do what industry standard suggest; techniques that work and have been proven over time.
The last time I used granite tile for a counter top I followed this method and it is working so far, 8 years to date.
Built a "sub-top" with 1/2" plywood, topped with 1/2" hardy backer. Cut some of the tile to 1" width for the front edge.
Thinset 12x12 tile to the top leaving 1/16" gap to allow for slight variation in the tile. After the thinset had cured I blue taped along the sides of the joints and mixed up some slow setting epoxy and packed it into the joints.
The 1" strips I clamped and epoxied to the front.
Looks great and is holding up!
what's the big deal to puting a bead of silicone along the edge of previous tile, pushing the next tile into it, scraping the squeeze-out, then wiping it with thinner? I've seen it done on bathroom floors. Why not a counter top?
I agree, it should be a slab. But if it's going to be tile, and they want the absolute smallest joints, this is a way to do it. Done right, it will look good and be water tight.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 4/2/2009 9:15 pm by Ted W.
Silliest thing I've heard in a while...........and on a bathroom floor? Silly cone grout joints?
Expansion joints perhaps.
You do it your way. My clients like grout between their tiles.
You do it your way. My clients like grout between their tiles.
Well then your clients wouldn't like this at all. Neither would mine, nor would I. But it would work is all I'm saying.
About scraping the excess (squeze-out) caulk before wiping with sillycone, that's just so the rag doesn't become saturated too quickly. Not sure how that read, but I should have clarified.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 4/2/2009 10:46 pm by Ted W.
Anyone who has used silicone in a bathroom knows it molds and mildews. In a damp location the only variable is when this will occur. It gets dirty too. I think it would be good for a 4 year counter top. :-)
Silicone caulk is a great product but only in certain applications, generally, where it won't be seen. For example, I like it for putting under a door threshold when installing a new exterior prehung door. There are very few uses for it inside a house.
I don't like granite and I while tile is OK I absolutely hate the idea of grout lines in a countertop.
I like soap stone. But no way could I handle the slabs.
Say an entry in a forum where some one used soap stone tiles. They used expoxy which they tinted to soap stone color. And use epoxy to mount them and put some on the edges where it met other tiles. Then scraped any excess of the top and wiped it down with thinner. So they where set with "zero" gap, but the color epoxy filled in any minor gaps.
And they laid the tiles out with somewhat matching of the veins.
From the pictures it looked like a monolithic slab. But with soap stone can also sand out any lipage.
Not exactly your situation, but might give you some ideas.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I've done it butted tight with silicone a couple of times and it does ok. The biggest issue I had was getting the tiles even with each other so you don't have any bumps sliding something across the counter. What helped on that was laying the back tiles 6" offset so there weren't any 4 way corners to keep level, and using a good straight edge to keep them as flat to each other as possible.
Take a road trip down to San Jose and buy a few prefab chinese granite countertops. The quality is all over the place but kz kitchens on first st in San Jose has top quality, many colors and they offer backsplash in both 4" and 18" as well as 12" sq. tiles to match.
The prices are ridiculously cheap and you would be better spent driving down there and back than trying to do a granite tile countertop.
You can get tops up to 10 feet for prices from 100 to 400 depending on the source.
Peninsulas and islands are also availible prefabbed.
These guys are putting fabricators like me out of business but I have to admit they are a great value for the right job.
I agree with eric that silicone grout joints would be a huge disappointment and ruin the job.
Karl
Use epoxy grout. It will look better than silicone that gooshes out and it's just as adhesive and waterproof.
Yeah I haven't heard anything good about silicone so far. What are the differences between epoxy grout and 'nonsanded' grout? Which one will get into a smaller joint? Is epoxy grout harder to work with than other grouts? Thanks.Brian
Spectra-loc from Laticrete is sanded, it is finer sand than normal sanded grout. It requires no sealing and is impervious to moisture.One of the primary functions of grout is to lock the tiles together against compressive stress. If the substrate flexes (someone stands on the counter), the well grouted top reacts as a monolith. Put caulk between the tiles and under stress the substrate will flex, and the thinset/tile bond can fail from the shear stress. Folks have been tiling for over two thousand years, it's been pretty well figured out what works and what doesn't.YMMV,Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Spectra Lock is made by the Laticrete company. It has fine sand. After wiping, they look like non-sanded joints, you know, smooth. I don't know how tight the joints can be. The stuff is waterproof, stain proof, though. I was nervous as can be the first time I used it but it is not any harder to clean up than traditional grout. You do have to pay attention to the time, but you get plenty of time to get it clean. I will never hesitate to use it again.
Y'all have touched on a couple of ways to make an unsanitary counter top.
IMHO, 1/8" grout lines packed with color matched epoxy grout is the way to go. Strike the joints flush if that suits your fancy.
YMMV
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I would use something like Lexel before silicone.
I would use something like Lexel before silicone.
Lexel is just polyurethane caulk, I think maybe the earliest brand to hit the market. But yeah, poly caulk would work well also.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
It may be "just polyurethane caulk", but it stays clear and it is really sticky.
If I was considering using a caulk to stick and seal tiles together, Lexel would be my first choice.
I ain't gonna read all the responses so if I'm repeating anything....tough : )
I did one in my own house years ago and it looked incredible. Actually to date I think it looked better then a solid piece but that was because I put a lot of thought and time into it.
I had cherry cabs. I used some Taiwan green...almost black...granite tiles (18") and laid them on the diagonal which made them 21"-22" or sumpin' like that and also did the same on the backsplash right up to the hangers which pushed the counter tiles out another 1/2"+. I custom made a beautiful bullnose with the same cherry stain as the cabs. I butted the tiles tight as they'd go together. Each tile has a slight bevel on it which I just grouted with unsanded grout. Came out cherry...so to speak...lol.
I lived in that house for years and had zero problems with the grout lines or grout.
If you don't plan plan plan and take your time it'll come out looking like a POS. Has to be dead on even...ZERO lippage.
And don't do it b/c you think if they're butt together it'll be not as obvious (grout lines). Do it because you WANT the grout lines...thats part of the detail.
You wouldn't belive all the compliments I got on it. I'll also go on to say it's a whole lot easier in your head then to actually do it and have it come out PERFECT!!!
Good luck..have fun.
Andy
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
I'm with you. The grout lines are part of the appeal. Even low end spec houses have had granite countertops for years now and they bore me silly. The tile also allows you to introduce other materials easily like maple cutting blocks, accent tiles or stainless steel. Much nicer.
yep....and in my old age after all these years in the craft even the new products are boring me silly. Whatever happened to using craftsmanship to make the finsihed product unique and beautiful? Imagination and craftsmanship should be the ruling factor. Yeh right...hurry up.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
With what is almost an industrial product nowadays, the real gift is to know where you can insert craftsmanship into a project where it will have the most impact. Things you will touch seems like one good starting point - handrails and pulls, counters. It goes a long way to humanizing a dwelling.
Nice to know that there's a good precedent for what I'm thinking of doing. You're right, the tighter the joint, the more flush the tops of the tiles need to be (any tips?). Unfortunately, in this kitchen the joints won't be so much of a detail becuasue they have decided on black grout and 'absolute black' tile. Though my installation will be a little simpler than yours, I promise to plan plan plan! Thanks for sharing.Brian
just make sure you comb out the thinset real evenly. Back butter your tiles and lay them down evenly and gently and then tap them down firmy making sure to be extra careful to keep each tile flush with one another. Lippage will be a big deal on a counter. Hasn't much to do with seeing the grout lines. Has to do with it being a counter... and sliding glasses and plates or whatever accross it. You don't want a slightly lifted tile edge. Thats going to be be what you need to pay the most attention do when you set those tiles. You don't want to have to reset tiles because thats going to throw you offf big time. Just be real careful and take your time. Set down several tiles at a time before you tap them down and be sure to back butter your tiles with just a thin even coat.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Seriously good tips, lippage vs. grout lines, fitting multiples, etc. I may come back and ask you more questions as we get closer . . . I've still got the huge sink cab, toe kicks and sub tops to build and install on my spare time. Or at least I'll try and post how it came out.Brian
You ask "You're right, the tighter the joint, the more flush the tops of the tiles need to be (any tips?)."I would keep a package of single edge razor blades handy and slide the cutting edge from one tile to the next and back holding it vertically. It will immediately tell you if a tile is higher than the one adjacent. This is how you test seams for flush in slab tops.Also be sure your sub top is as close to flat as you can get it. Any high or low spots will require a lot of skill with addition or removal of thinset to flatten them out.Lay the tile out dry first to get an idea of how flat they are going to lay. If there are any fasteners or other glitches raising one or more tile, resolve it before spreading any thinset.Also plan your cuts and layout before starting to set tile. Assume the tile won't all be uniform square or uniform size. If this is the case you will need to correct your joint size accordingly.Are you going to polish the exposed edges? or miter them? Or put wood edging on the face?If you are going to polish them be aware that absolute black is fairly challenging to get a good shine on. If you sub out the polishing make sure the guy is bringing out the shine using only diamond pads and isn't using wax or a color enhancing sealer to bring out the color.I will reiterate that prefab slabs would be easier, most likely cheaper and many people prefer the solid surface concept to grout joints.Karl
isn't using wax or a color enhancing sealer to bring out the color.
Hey c'mon. You're letting trade secrets out of the bag!
Yeah, I thought twice before mentioning the wax and color enhancing sealer. Black is a baffling color. I have had some black granite that refused to "pop" or take on a wet look shine until I switched from my standard 4000rpm polisher to a 2000 rpm polisher. I can't imagine how halving the speed improves the shine on a few specific challenging stones but it has.If this guy has the saw to do it, the best approach would be to miter the edges and apron on his countertop and that way he can more or less eliminate the polishing.I am just baffled that the Original poster thinks tile is going to be easier than putting in prefab slabs. He has voiced some valid concerns but so far hasn't even broached the issue of edge polishing. I just wanted to put that out there as one more challenge in working with granite tile.KarlIf I was doing granite tile for the first time I would practice on my own home before doing one for someone else, especially family who I would see regularly.KarlKarl
I've done a bite otile work mostly in baths (stone actually) and I have had limited sucess using auto body wetordri paper and a bit of butchers wax.
Yes, it's cheating, but not wholesale.
I don't think I would EVER want to live with grout joints on a countertop in a kitchen.
We got the (expensive) tile with the prefab type bullnose, even and outside corner, so any cuts I make will be be sealed by grout . . . I am not a granite polisher nor do I want to be!Brian
brian I agree with some of the posters here. Why not just do slab tops?
Much cleaner lines and will be more functional.
If you do tile though, just leave a 1/16" grout joint (knife joint) and use Laticrete epoxy grout. Best stuff on the market.
Epoxy grouts are not like they were 20 years ago. They clean up real easy. Of course not like cementious grouts but way easier than you would expect.
Don't be afraid to use a moderately damp sponge and add some liquid laundry detergent to the rinse water the first 2 times around. It will pick up every bit of epoxy haze. Make sure to use clean water for the final rinse.
Whenever I do tile c'tops or vertical surfaces in epoxy I always buy an extra quantity of grout powder and add a little more to the epoxy than is called for to help make it a little stiffer. Works great.
sully
I don't know why, but my photo response to you was deleted. This is what my 1/16" grout line granite tile installation looked like on finish Don't know if that's too wide for your family member or not. This grout is raised flush with the tile surface, since the homeowner wanted the economy of granite tile, but not a concave, recessed grout line.
View Image
That's nice looking rez.
I'd like to see what it looks like in ten years around the sink though.
Did you do that?
All that labor of building the plywood base, then adding cbu, then installing the tile and in this instance ordering finished bullnose.
I could put a solid stone top on there and walk away with money in my pocket.
No, that was just a resize for the dialups of the 460KB in 118521.33.
Just saw your post.
I did those countertops, four of 'em including the bar. And I bull-nosed and polished the edges too. I still use my original yellow, rubber-ducky suit that I wear when I cut and wet polish edge treatments. Ya gotta love the monotony, noise and spray in your eyes though - and it helps to do polish work outdoors in a warm climate.
By the way, the area around the sink still looks the same after six years. Maybe that's because the because the owner never cooks and washes dishes.
You might look into BedRock Creations...it's a mail order granite tile place specially made for kitchen counters. Just used it as part of a kitchen job recently (though I didn't do the install).
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Their website:
http://bedrockcreations.net/index_rev.htm