Got a quick real estate question. There is a small chunk of land between my property and the neighbor’s property. It’s actually an old right of way that’s no longer needed since additional roads have been built in the community. I want to purchase this right of way from the owner of record, who is willing to sell it. We have already agreed on a selling price. Since this is such a small transaction, I’d like to avoid using any lawyers. What’s necessary for me to buy this property from the seller? The seller is an elderly gentleman who has owned the right of way for a long time (used to own other property in the neighborhood) and assured me that there are no liens or encumbrances on it. He has the deed in his possession. Everything and everyone is located in New Jersey. Thanks in advance.
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Replies
Laws vary from state to state, but I'd be leery of his assurances there are no liens etc -- stuff can happen without hus knowing it.
It seems to me the issues here is clear title - I'd talk to someone at a title agency to see if you can get them to issue a policy on it.
The other issue is following the proper dance steps for conveyance of real property in NJ.
Local form books should be adequate for that.
On behalf of my former fellow bottom feeding sharks,, understand that any legal transaction undertaken without legal advice may have some hidden pitfalls
I would submit a purchase and sale agreement that lays out the terms, and have the seller sign it. It doesn't need to be lengthy or complex, but I would have a lawyer prepare it. Then turn the contract over to an escrow company and have them close it. They can get title insurance for you, and whatever else is needed. I would expect to spend maybe a few thousand to prepare the offer and have the closing handled.
He may have a "deed", but as far as I can tell, a new deed with your name on it as "grantee" needs to be prepared.The seller's attorney should prepare this. I would still get a real estate attorney to look at it and see if its correct, then record it wherver land records are kept.
IIRC, any state will require a physical survey to document the points on the ground, and that they're where they should be. Once the survey is done, and the meets and bounds are written, then it's between you and the seller, provided there are no encumberences due to the abandoned ROW stuff. It CAN come back and bite you.
I'm a retired surveyor, and I've seen it all...
In Maine, no professional survey is required when both parties agree about the points described and jointly located, but as you well know and I have learned, it is foolish to proceeed without.
Maybe he can buy the property in question without the lawyer attached and just rent the lawyer long enough to do the deal.
Two sides to the leagal beagle deal .. I know of a ouple who were selling off a slice of their larger hunk, and they were DIY all the way.
Turns out the way they wrote the wording, they had deeded over the larger piece an d kept the little slice. They were lucky to get that corrected without contentions from the other party.
But one assumes the Lawyer and surveyor can write up a deed correctly. I've had to correct one when proofreading it too myself after a lawyer and surveyor had put their heads together to write it up.
You'd think they knew the diff between East and West....
>>You'd think they knew the
>>You'd think they knew the diff between East and West<<
That's why you need a current survey and a meets & bounds that call for courses with specific directions and distances.
Put it to you this way. Would you buy a truck w/o looking it over and test driving it? Pop the hood, see if everything was there? See if the spare is there? Of course you wouldn't. That's what a survey is for to make sure everything is there AND in the right place. And don't forget that a survey done a hundred years ago will not be as accurate as one done with modern equipment, and that will affect your final square footage for tax purposes...
I am a RE agent...
You will need a written agreement to sell, at the least it needs to state the parties by name, price, terms and legal description. If you are buying the property "as is and where is" it needs to state that. (That would be required by me if I had a client in this type of deal.)
If the property lines are not clear or could be contended, get a pinned survey, if it is like most suburban property and the lines are fairly clear there may not be a need.
Next, go to a title company and tell them to run a title search and issue a policy, then close. The title company should give you a copy of the closing docs 24 hrs ahead of time so you can review them away from the closing table and correct mistakes (title companies do make mistakes).
Fairly simple if the parties are not being contentious.
Or
You can pay a local RE agent to use his standard local RE board forms and do the transaction. Tell him you will pay $500 for him to do a TRANSACTION BROKERAGE. I would do this before going to a lawyer.
IME-
Title company only... maybe cost $500 total
RE agent and title company... maybe cost $1000 total
Lawyer... maybe cost $2000-2500
>>you will need a written agreement to sell,
In the states I am familiar with, you need a written agreement OF sale... with notarized signatures...
An agreement to sell isn't a sale, it's merely an agreement to do something,,,,
And don't forget, the deed has to be recorded on the official state/county/city (as appropriate - in NJ, it's county IIRC) land record books.
Executing the deed means that between you and the seller, you have title.
If you don't record the deed, and he sells the same piece to someone else who does record it, you lose....
I admit I used the wrong words, 'of sale' not 'to sell'. In any case it has to be WRITTEN as a verbal agreement for the sale of property is not allowed in the US.
As for recording, that is part of the title company's job and part of what he is paying them for. I always let the title company handle that because if it gets screwed up it is their problem to fix.
BK
It has been a bit of time since I delt with real estate in NJ but when we sold my parents house two thing came to light that NJ has in its unique real estate laws. Unless things have changed they are, you must use a lawyer to represent you at closing (both buyer and seller), two you must have a survey, no way around either. You don't need an real estate agent.
My parents had something similar they had an 20' X 50' lot behind their house and railroad tracks below. The lot was deeded seprate from the rest of Jersey Central property, other home owners on the block had the same. We contacted the railroad about selling the lot to us, it was land locked and useless to them, the tracks were 20 feet below the lot and house elevation. The railroad said that in order to sell the lawyer fees and survey would cost more then they would gain from the price of the land. We let it drop.
I feel your pain such a small sale can cost a lot.
My wife's sister had a simalar situation in Redondo Beach Ca, they wanted to triple their house size. There was a small triangle piece of land that the city owned, useless to the city, by buying the land the foot print of the house could be bigger, it took a year and half for the deal to go through with the city. Again the fees were more then the land price.
Good luck in weird NJ
Wallyo
For the type transaction you are describing, here I'd just do a 'quit claim' deed from the seller and record it for about $50 with the county. Assume it directly abuts your property.
Was going to buy a piece of land 'adjacent' to one of the old BT denizens a few years back as a long term investment and let the other BT guy use it or buy it long term, then found out 'adjacent' meant there was a parcel in between and so avoided that type encumberance.
A quit claim... that's an
A quit claim... that's an interesting idea, I see that used here sometimes, and/or a statutory warranty deed, which appears to convey one person's interest to another. I don't think that's going to help you if you eventually want to sell, but I could be wrong.
A quit claim is full of danger all it says is I have no idea of my interest in the piece of real estate, but what ever that interest is it is now yours. In other words I don't know if I own it but if I do it is yours and if I don't it is not yours.
Wallyo
A quit claim is next to meaningless, especially when going to resell the property in the future.
A quit claim is essentially an agreement from the seller that he/she won't ever make any claims against you regarding the property, but all bets are off regarding any claims anyone else may raise.
They have their place, but not this situation.
I have been on this site for several years. I use it to answer questions I might have about repair and/or building projects covering the gambit of building professionals. One fact comes through on ALL of my responses - use a professional when you have no idea what you are about to undertake. I am a lawyer. Have been for 20+ years in Michigan. GET A LAWYER. This is not something you do without professional help. I'll make a deal with you - I will not wire a new breaker box in my house without a professional and you will not buy property without one as well. Deal?
I'm sorry, but I can't take
I'm sorry, but I can't take you up on your deal. Any time someone tells me that I can't do something by myself, I become even more motivated to give it a shot. In this situation, I'm aware of the basic steps that I would need to accomplish for this transaction to take place. I also have a pretty good idea of the potential pitfalls. I put this post up here so that folks could chime in with their knowledge and experience and perhaps offer some insights into the process (I know there are a few guys on the forum that do their own real estate deals). The price for the property I'm looking to buy is about three grand. The price for a lawyer to be involved (in my neck of the woods) is between $600 and $1000. That is just the lawyer fee. You want a title search? $150 to $400, depending on how involved it gets. Title insurance? More money. A survey? $500 without pins. $150 each pin if you want them. Like I said in a previous post, I'm buying this piece of property mainly so I can own my driveway, but it will also allow me to put a shed in a particular spot in my backyard and a small deck on the side of my house. I can't do either right now because I don't meet the setbacks from the property line. This little plot of land I'm looking to buy will give me the necessary clearances required by the zoning board to allow me to build things on my existing property that I can't build presently without variance. I am in the process of a having a title search done on the property. Provided there are no issues with the search (which should run around $200), the title company also has a closing officer who will handle the deal for a fee of $300. I think this is the way I am going to go.
BK
>>I'm sorry, but I can't take
>>I'm sorry, but I can't take you up on your deal. Any time someone tells me that I can't do something by myself, I become even more motivated to give it a shot.
On behalf of all the litigators out there, God bless you.... That's the spirit ... which keeps the litigation fees coming in.
RJW-
As somebody who used a lawyer for the two previous real estate transactions I was involved in, I vowed to myself, "Never again." I've never paid anyone more money for less work than these two individuals. In the last instance, I actually had to call the seller up and work out the details of the contract myself because my lawyer kept trying to get them to agree to a rider with stipulations that they wouldn't agree to (the seller was a lawyer). My lawyer kept trying to push things that were not even relevent to the transaction (this was an abandoned house bought with cash). After rejecting my lawyer three times, the seller was ready to call the deal off. At that point, I called him up myself, worked out details that were acceptable to both of us, and got the contract signed. That's just part of the story. By the end of the process, I had done more legwork than anyone and I was out $800 in legal fees. It would have been $1200, but the lawyer gave me a discount because we know one another. I feel that I paid $800 to have someone send a couple of faxes and fill out a couple of forms. That is ridiculous.
The first real estate tranaction I was involved in cost $1100 through "the family lawyer." What a dope. Walking out of the office, I felt like I had just been robbed. As I walked past the guy's Mercedes in the parking lot, and got into my Ford, I couldn't help but think, "Why am I a part of this ridiculous system?"
About me: I'm building my own house. I fix my own cars. I have a college degree and I'm in school for my masters. In terms of this real estate deal, I want to do whatever I can reasonably do myself. As I mentioned in a previous post, I am using a title company to do a title search. I know that I could do this myself down at the county hall, but I have benefitted from the advice of title guys in the past so I think that it's probably wise money to spend, especially since the cost isn't too significant. Beyond that, I'm not sure what a lawyer is going to do for me in this situation, other than provide paperwork (which I can do myself) and a giant bill.
Please understand, I think there are lawyers out there who are worth every dime they charge (especially if you're facing jail or a lawsuit), but I also think there are many instances in life where their services aren't necessarily required. I mean, most people don't use a lawyer when they buy a car, sign an apartment lease or have surgery done (all of which cost significantly more and have greater inherent risks than what I'm doing).
Worst case scenario, I'm out three grand if I buy this piece of property and something comes up down the road. Having the title search done helps ensure the seller isn't trying to pull a fast one on me. What is a lawyer going to contribute to this situation other than increasing my out of pocket costs by 20 -25%?
BK
Tha there are scummy lawyers in no way affects the concept that do-it-yourself lawyering is a great source of business for litigators.
There are incompetents and rip off artists in every line of work; lawyering might have a slightly higher proportion, but there are also plenty of honest ones.
Maybe you need a better system for picking lawyers?
I have to ask what part of the state are you in, my parents were North at the time we were told a lawyer was required, by law, but I guess in 1995 this ruling came down.
''The New Jersey Supreme Court, in holding last year that non-lawyers may conduct closings and settlements, found that real estate closing fees were lower in southern New Jersey, where lay settlements were commonplace, than in the northern part of the State, where lawyers conducted almost all settlements. Southern New Jersey buyers who were represented by counsel throughout the entire transaction, including closing, paid, on average, $650, while sellers there paid $350. Northern New Jersey sellers paid $750 in lawyers' fees on average and buyers, $1,000. In re Opinion No. 26 of the Committee On The Unauthorized Practice of Law, 654 A.2d 1344, 1348-49 (N.J. 1995)."
Perhaps the lawyer required was a county requirement. Their's was Hudson. But it again is, weird NJ. I am surprised that the southern part of the state is different from the Northern in the use of lawyers.
I can not find anything that states you needed an attorney by law.
One question I have is did you use one when you purchased your house?
Would I use one maybe not in my state depends on the situation but if I were moving back to NJ I would.
Wallyo
But it sounds like you will not be quit claiming it so that is good.
Wallyo
Wally-
I'm located in
Wally-
I'm located in northern NJ. The title company that is doing the search for me will have their "closing officer" do the closing for $300. I'm thinking that I'll probably wind up going that route, but I'm not positive.
I have used a lawyer in the past. See my above response to RJW for more info about that fiasco. Thanks for your interest.
BK
Does the title search include title insurance? If not that seems the only part missing, if it does then your plan looks sound. As I said with a small purchase the fees can quickley cost as much as the land itself.
Just curious with the lawyer and your purchases were you told you had to have a lawyer or was it your choice?
When I was advising my sister on her purchase and my parents on their sale we were told we had to have a lawyer by law, but ironic, I can not find any such law, just what the custom is. So was it a situation of the seller has a lawyer so I the buyer better have one?
There are what are refered to as lawyer closing state and agent closing states but I have not been able to find a list and NJ seem to be a bit of both.
Her purchase was in Bloomfield my parents sale in Bayonne.
Wallyo