I am planning on buying rough sawn lumber and making my trim for my house. When buying random widths and lengths what or how do I estimate how much to buy? What questions should I ask the mill? What other things should I worry about when doing this?
Thanks Jim III
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When I buy rough sawn for furniture projects, I get it from a wholesale lumber dealer. You mentioned getting it from a mill...will it be dried or green? Depending on the quality of the rough material, you'll loose 1/16" in thikness and 1/2" or more in width, more if it's cupped or warped. I try to buy S2S1E lumber, which is surfaced 2 sides and ripped 1 edge, cuz I can get a much better feel for the grain and any possible defects. Plus the one straight edge gives me something to push against the fence.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
This where i plan to buy from and they will supply about anyway i want it just costs more http://www.theworkbench.com/catalog.php And as far as the sawdust i have 5 dogs so i can use some of it in there pen and how much waste should i estimate for 5 10 20 50% and how dry is dry enough in michigan 7or 8%
Thanks Jim III
To worry about?
Ditto what is said in message #5, but would strongly suggest a band saw 18in, or larger, (or the Hitachi resaw bandsaw)
Specifications:
Capacity: Max cutting height
315 mm
Machine Dimensions (WxLxH)
936 x 740 x 1,533 mm
Table Dimensions (W x L)
525 x 496 mm
Installation Dimensions (W x L)
445 x 285 mm
Weight
150 kg
View Image
in preference to a table saw to break the planks up. Much safer than a table saw. Is your floor up to a machine this size? Are you wired for 3-phase?
Then you'll need a big jointer (how wide is the widest trim you're planning on?) maybe you'll need something bigger than 8" with long tables, another 500lbs of machinery. serious size planer, ditto dust collection and hearing protection – don't forget the neighbours – and probably a power feeder and spindle moulder to do the profiles.
This is industrial scale stuff. You'd have to do an awful lot of bd ft and charge your time at $0 per hr before you look like being in front of the outlay on machines.
If your aim is to save money on custom profiles by milling it yourself, you really should investigate renting time at a local custom trim shop, or better yet pay the shop to mill the profile(s) for you.
I plan to use a woodmaster . I dont have 3 phase and i have plenty of floor space. I shoot a lot so i have hearing protection. Iam on 20+ acres so the nieghbors wont mind. I sure dont get using a bandsaw to rip down lumber though.
Thanks JimIII
A band saw is a good addition to a table saw. It can rip to the right width, and it can be used to resaw to the right thickness faster than a planer.
Jim
You'll still need a jointer otherwise it'll be banana shaped board goes in and a profiled banana shaped board comes out
Ian
I do have a 6inch jointer and a 12inch compound slider and table saw
Thanks Jim III
I've dabbled in this over the years, and since it sounds like you're mainly wanting to know how many board feet of rough translate to board feet of finished, I would say buy 20% - 50% more than what you'll need finished, depending, of course on what the rough was graded out at (and if it was graded) as it came off the saw. If it's just mill run, then you're up or beyond 50%. "Number two" grade will probably have most of the really skanky and wanny boards culled out, and you might be down closer to 20%.
Why not buy twice as much rough? Then you'll have a crack at more of the really pretty boards, and if it turns out well, some left over for another project.
To get down to 5% - 8% moisture you'll be involving a kiln somewhere along the line, probably at the beginning or at least before it's milled..
Not true about having a kiln,
there are about a dozen ways to dry wood.. none very difficult..
It really comes down to a time factor.. Simple air dry will produce wood that is 7% moisture in about a year of outside storage (depending on where you are)
you can dry a one inch thick board in about a month indoors with a dehumidifier, and a little care.. and if you are drying in the winter you can do so indoors in about 45 days (depending..)
You can not air dry wood to 7%; it's not possible, unless you happen to live inside of a dry kiln. 12-15% is considered the most you can hope to get, depending on where you live. To drive off the bound water in the cells, you need some form of drying.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Back to the original question, agree with the poster that said add 20-50%....except I'd say 30-50%, depending on species.
Grade is also a factor; depends on the size of piece you need to get out. A high grade like FAS or Select and Better means that you can get a lot of big, clear cuts out of the board with very few cuts.....the bigger the clear pieces in the fewest cuts, the higher the grades. If the cuttings are too small to make grade, or it takes too many cuts, the board drops down through the grades.....#1 common, #2, #3 etc....smaller the pieces, more cuts, lower the grade.
The reason I say this is.....if the pieces you need are relatively small, you may get the best value buy buying a lower grade (like #1 common), and even though your yield goes WAY down, so does the cost of the lumber....so you end up with the pieces you need, a big pile of scrap, but at a lower cost than buying the higher grades. This doesn't apply if you are making 12' dining tables, but it does for many furniture and millwork items.
last thing; agree with the people saying buy S2S1E, ubnless you just love milling lumber.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
You can not air dry wood to 7%; it's not possible
Actually it is. When we lived in Denver that was exactly what my air dried lumber got to. No problem at all. Bound water is simply slower to leave. Virginia is a whole different experience. 11-12% this time of year, and headed up.
Hoadley (Understanding Wood) says "Just as a sponge must be left to dry- and shrink and harden- so must the bound water be removed by placing the wood in a relatively dry atmosphere. How much of the bound water is lost (and therefore how much shrinkage takes place) will depend on the relative humidity (RH) of the atmosphere."PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
been busy with end of term...
For the record, Hoadley does not say anywhere that it is possible to air-dry lumber to 7%.....he uses 12-15% for'most of the country'.
US Forest Products Laboratory uses 12-15% for most of the country
Forintek (Canadian; similar to USFPL), uses 12-15%
every reference I have but one, uses 12-15%....that one states that it MAY be possible to go as low as 10% in air-drying, which is what we're talking about: if someone is sticking lumber in an attic or something similar, that's not air-drying, that's a low temperature kiln. The consensus among every source I have, is that you can air-dry to 12-15%, then it requires energy of some sort to drive off bound water....energy from heat, solar generated heat, energy to run a dehumidification kiln, whatever....but it requires energy from somewhere to get down below 10%. I can't explain Denver....may have to do with the physics at altitude, I don't know....and places like Arizona may be an exception....but I have been in mills, kilns and plants in every province in this coutry except two, and I'm going with the majority opinion until I see otherwise. I've had more than one person claim to me that they were air-drying below 10%, and I've never seen it borne out.
here's a quote from Gene Wengert, wood tech professor in Wisconsin (next door to Frenchy)....the rest of the discussion can be found at this link; don't have time right now to do more follow up. He is stating my position.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Airdrying_oak.html
"The outside relative humidity in most of the USA is equivalent to 12% MC in wood. We call that 12% EMC. This is true in NH. Inside a house, the conditions are 6% EMC.
Air-dried wood will be no lower than 12% MC, even after many years.
You cannot make something with 12% MC wood and expect it to work okay when it is brought into a house at 6% EMC. The wood will shrink and shrinkage means problems. For example, oak will shrink about 2% in size across the grain, even in New Hampshire, when going from air-dried to house-dry (12% MC to 6% MC).
Perhaps if you work slowly, the wood will dry out as you are working with it in your heated shop, so when you are done it is 6% MC. Perhaps your air drying is heated so it is not really air drying. We have reviewed the benefits of kiln drying before in this forum, including sterilization and also setting the pitch for softwoods. We have also mentioned that a few board feet can be dried to a low enough MC in an attic.
Contributor J, Are you saying that you make flooring at 12% MC and then install it in a house and when it dries to 6% MC, that it is still okay? Doesn't a 30' wide oak floor shrink about 2% or nearly 6"? How can this amount of shrinkage be considered okay? When a tabletop shrinks 2% in size, how can this be okay? Or when a 30" door shrinks 1/2", how can that be okay? I do not believe that you are using 12% MC air-dried wood.
Gene Wengert, forum technical advisor "
cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I can't explain Denver....may have to do with the physics at altitude, I don't know....and places like Arizona may be an exception....but I have been in mills, kilns and plants in every province in this coutry except two, and I'm going with the majority opinion until I see otherwise. I've had more than one person claim to me that they were air-drying below 10%, and I've never seen it borne out.
Feel free to disbelieve if it suits you. That concerns me little. But when you state things I know to be incorrect, prepare yourself to be corrected. I see you're still stuck on bound water and a required kiln. That's fine, you don't have to believe Hoadley either. His, and my, experience belie your assumption. When I lived in Arizona I wasn't woodworking, but the furniture I shipped there from Denver had no movement problems. I also shipped pieces to New Jersey. Those scared me, but none experienced movement beyond what I'd allowed for.
Regarding Gene Wengert's quote, there is a huge amount that he's apparently ignoring. For instance, he says "When a tabletop shrinks 2% in size, how can this be okay? Or when a 30" door shrinks 1/2", how can that be okay?", he is assuming poor wood usage. Something I certainly hope you know, and teach, better than. Clearly both those scenerios do not have to happen with wood undergoing the mc changes he uses. Surely you know than a table top shrinking 2% in size is insignificant if it's in thickness. 2% of .75" is .015", pretty tough to measure with any tape I use. If you desire to run the grain the other direction, no problem, just prepare for the expected movement. I've done it many times. My large dining room table is flatsawn walnut and changes size nearly 1/2" annually without problem. The context of his quote is unknown to me, but there is wrong general information there, if that was his intent. I'm really not inclined to follow up what you don't want to bother about. Hoadley goes into this in depth, grain orientation and movement according to species. The book was published in 1980. There's really little excuse for not knowing.
The reason I take my meter to a client's house here is that there is a very large variation in furniture mc, depending on how the client prefers to live. That allows me to predict, with accuracy, what my piece will do in their home. Both taking on and losing moisture. In Denver it wasn't an issue.
You're a teacher and you can only teach what you know. But if you are telling your students that air drying is always insufficient, you're wrong. Surely you know that many well-known furniture makers only use air-dried wood. Not famous myself, but I share that predilection. If Wenger is truly stating your position, I pity your students in their inadequate education.
I first met Hoadley at Brigham Young U. He had a lot to say about differing climates, especially as his Eastern experience was not the same as the arid west, other than how wood moves, which is universal. Primary problem in a desert climate is slowing down drying enough to prevent severe checking. There was a large walnut log there that Will Malloff was slabbing with his amazing chain saw. The boards were well examined. Hoadley's book was already published at that time but wouldn't have had any reason to deal with desert climates. Presuming that you've read the book, you know that he deals with considerably more than drying. The germane parts to me were those enabling prediction of wood movement, both by losing and gaining mc.
Those rules of thumb from Hoadley and government sources about air drying are fine. But rules of thumb is all they are. If you're trying to prove something here, it didn't work. And Wengert's "The outside relative humidity in most of the USA is equivalent to 12% MC in wood." doesn't work here. I think I mentioned measuring kiln dried oak, awaiting sale, at 15% after being exposed to outside air for a time.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I have a moisture meter, I use it to test the moisture content prior to use.. it is accurite in that it reads exactly what the meter at the kiln reads..
The humidity this month has averaged 20% thus wood that is outside will be around 7 to9%
You really should not assume that everyone lives in a swamp or near the ocean..
While what you say is true if the humidity is high it is not valid with a period of low humidity..
Kiln drying is not required to drive off the bound layer of moisture, simply enough time in a low enough humidty..
You need to get a book, and review the basics of wood technology. Maybe you aren't using you're meter properly, or maybe you are not using the term air-drying correctly....but I don't believe you are air-drying to 7%. See above for my reasons.
I don't assume everyone lives in a swamp....but you do live beside a lake, don't you? I may have that wrong. I was north of you not long ago, touring plants in Manitoba.....I know they have to deal with very low humidity levels in winter, but I don't believe conditions there are radically different enough to remove them from the genreal guidleines that apply to 'most of North America'. Are you saying they are where you're at?cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
you said it yourself.. Inside air in the winter is at 6% moisture. Well for a variety of reasons I have evan lower than that moisture in the winter inside my house, down to the point where nose bleeds occur.
by bringing in the wood and stickering it up I add moisture to an already dry house and the wood gets down to the lowest reading on my meter (6%)
wood that is air dried to normal levels outside, when it comes inside quickly dries evan lower.. During the summer that same wood (inside) may go up but my method for dealing with that is to build to the absolute tightest specs possible short of buckling on the most humid days.. then as things dry out the inevitable gaps are as small as possible.
I do adjust gaps as humidity goes down but there comes a point where I stop and work on non detail work (wiring, plumbing,lighting, etc.) rather than attempt to guess the needed gap.
I will admit that timbers that are 12x12 aren't dry after four years, they continue to shrink and open up gaps two years after being put in place..
Can't be avoided. Part of the timberframe experiance.
Well this is a second posting. The last message didn't post. Must be this odd behaviour on the Prospero forums people are complaining about. Luckily I'd saved my reply and pasted it into a Word doc.
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I too was surprised at Frenchy's claim of air drying timber to as low as 7% MC, Adrian. I've never seen it happen in all my years in the furniture business. Typically here in the UK I expect to buy air dried stuff as low as 12% in exceptional circumstances, but more likely in the 14% to 16% or even 18% range.
Timber furniture in service here will typically read between about 8% and 12%. It depends a bit on the location in the house, building or office and the winter heating set up. Living areas such as kitchens, dining and sitting rooms are usually kept a little warmer than bedrooms, and sometimes the former have additional heating such as open fires, etc.. Summers generally don't require us to run air-conditioning, although a/c systems are becoming more common.
Interestingly, when I lived in Houston I never came across air dried material and always bought kiln dried stuff. Perhaps air dried stuff was out there somewhere, but I was never offered any. The stuff I bought at local lumber yards had been kilned to 6% or 8%, or so it was said, but not once in the ten years I lived there was I able to buy a single stick reading less than 10%. Typically when I purchased it it would read 11% to 13%.
My workshop in Houston was the normal all expenses spared tin shed broiler designed for cooking meat to perfection. In particular the misery months of March to October in that hellish part of the world were hard to bear and the wood continued to gain moisture as my projects were built.
All I could do was to build solid wood stuff in the expectation that panels and so on would shrink once the piece went into a clients house or business premises and was affected by heating and cooling systems.
Traditional solid wood hand cut dovetailed drawers with slips had to be made a little tight. Fortunately our office was air conditioned and I could put the completed piece in there for a week or so to acclimatise prior to finally shooting the drawers to fit with a handplane, followed by getting the thing out to the customer as fast as possible, ha, ha.
I certainly find that 7% MC claim for air dried stuff, well, most unlikely, but I'm also not familiar with Frenchy's part of the US-- Montana or somewhere isn't it? Slainte.RJFurniture
The shop I worked in had a 24" Yates-American planer, a Martin planer the size of an aircraft carrier, a 12" 10 HP Powermatic tablesaw with a four-wheel feeder, and a dust collector outside that looked like a silo. The owner knew how to set knives and bearings so we got great looking material out of all that rough stuff. I hope with small tools you're only making enough trim for a kitchen or a master bed/bath remodel, not a whole house.
But don't let me stop you. It's fun milling lumber for a few days. What species are you getting. Please do not say VG fir.
Seems kind of funny that on most of the woodworking forums, people get by just fine all the time buying rough cut lumber, ripping to width on a contractor table saw, milling it 6 or sometimes 8" jointers and the 12-13" 'lunchbox' portable planers. Heck, for various reasons (noise level, lack of sufficient electrical supply, $$$, or other) some people still do portions of it by *hand*, especially if the stock width/length exceeds what their smaller machines can digest. Not sure I understand the difference in view.
Monte
>> Not sure I understand the difference in view.
Probably the difference between prepping tens of board feet for a piece of furniture and hundreds of board feet for a houseful of trim.
Edited 4/12/2004 4:50 pm ET by Uncle Dunc
But it should be doable, correct, given enough time/patience/desire? Just seems like some are implying that it isn't possible/feasible unless one has a full-blown shop w/ heavy iron costing a couple thousand *per machine*. For a home-owner/hobbyist who wants to do it themselves, whether to save some $$$ or to get a profile/design they might not be able to find easily or just for a sense of satisfaction, it should be within reason. Might be a good long winter project, milling up trim for a later installation?
Monte
"You'll still need a jointer otherwise it'll be banana shaped board goes in and a profiled banana shaped board comes out"
Ian,
For really long boards (12'+) a snapped chalk line, jig or circular saw, and a few back and forth passes through a table saw typically give a better lumber yield, and often boards just as straight. Talkin' across the width ond down the lenght here.
Jon
the jointer is really for producing a flat board. Agree that an edge can readily be straightened with a saw, but it's the jointer (or hand planes) that'll take out the twist and cup. I'd be inclined to deal with bent board by cutting it into two or three shorter ones.
Ian
the jointer is really for producing a flat board.
agreed, and there are various instances where a flat board is essential, but in this case the boards are going to be attached to framing (which may or may not be straight and true) and a modest amount of warp and twist is not much of a factor
jim-mi, I'd like to hear more about the style of trim you are considering..."there's enough for everyone"
David,
You do wonderful work. We shall see if i can do any lol. well I will be using red oak cause my doors are that already in a meduim stain . I have to make 7inch jamb ext. for the whole house because I used isulated foam blocks to make my extrior walls and I have not decided on my profiles yet. I will need at least a 5inch baseboard. I will be casing the windows with proable some sort of fluted casing corner blocks and pilasters. I will also be using a stool and apron in the windows. the windows are vynil so will be using a plastic channel that is made for drywall returns to put the wood into so the edge will be clean at the window I have decided on the wood master planner molder to do the work the 718 model. Hope that helps please let me know if you need more info.
Thanks Jim III
jim-mi..........you have the same plans that I do. I have piles of red oak and access to more for little of nothing. I have plans to buy a Woodmaster also and make all my own trim. Let me know what you think of your machine when you get it. I hope they run a special when it comes time for me to buy one. I'm debating on whether I should have all the oak kiln dried or not. It will have air dried for over a year by the time I get to the finish stage.
sam
Contact them to ask about scratch and dent specials.
I was on their mailing list for several years after I first cointacted them and ended up buying a W&H. They let me wait a few months after sending out the brochures and then started sending the sale flyers.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sam,
I've used large quantities of both air dried and kiln dried lumber, particulary oak. If you're thinking 1 yr/inch, that's an old fallacy. Properly stickered and ventilated, air dried will dry much faster than that. Do you have access to a moisture meter? Assuming you have reasonable moisture content, air dried will mill much more gracefully than kiln dried. I'd stongly recommend against kiln drying if you have the appropriate moistue content for your area. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
the one year per inch rule really depends.. Here in Minnesota it actually takes more time than that if everything is left outside (wood freezes and remains frozen 6 months of the year here) yet I've had pine sit outside and some of it was dry inside of six months while the black walnut wasn't dry three years later! species and location are part of the anser.. I suggest buying a moisture meter, they cost around $100.00 and are well worth it if you air dry wood.
No idea what you were doing with that walnut, but Hoadley (Understanding Wood) lists walnut at 70-200 days. The 200 being for stickering in the fall, taking into consideration the long winter of minimal/no drying. 70 days for good drying weather, in spring and summer. The subject here was (northern) oak, which Hoadley lists at 70-250, depending on species. Again, the 250 would be for fall stickering. Only redwood gets up to 365 days. To get these numbers you do have to have proper air flow.
I've air dried a lot of walnut, oaks, and tulip poplar. Far as I can tell, Hoadley's right on the mark.
Quite some time ago Fine Woodworking ran a test on a wide selection of moisture meters and said that they all worked, even the $25 one. Really no good reason for anybody to do without. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Wood is never a standard, one size fits all!
Here in Minnesota with 6 months of freezing conditions there is vitually no drying taking place.. In the spring we may get weeks of steady rain/drizzle or as we are having this spring a relatively dry season..
I certainly agree with you, that there is no earthly reason not to own a moisture meter if you intend to do much working with wood!
I havent bought a moisture meter yet what brand was the 25dollar one that test ok
Jim III
Jim,
Boy, you got lucky. I'm not very well organized but managed to find the issue, March/April '94. I was wrong on the price, however. $29 from Sonin Rapitest 800-225-1153, at the time. Taiwan import and no idea if the company's still around. Dig out the article and they list 18 units, all worked satisfactorily. Electrophysics in Canada 519-668-2871, offered a $49 one.
I was part of the exodus after they featured Norm, so I have no idea if FWW's covered the topic since.
Or, July/August '85 has an article on how to build your own. Material $30.
I am extremely happy with my pinless Wagner, but it was $200.
If you have a good scale, you can always do oven drying to determine moisture content. That's how they tested the meters.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I sure appreciate all the effort
Thanks Jim III
Amazon has the $30 Sonin. The limitation is that it does not go below 10%.
thanks............mine is all stickered and stacked in the pole barn. I do have access to a moisture meter at work and will just check it next summer. I should be getting close to the finish stage by then.
sam
thanks............mine is all stickered and stacked in the pole barn.
You're welcome. Oddly enough, I'm in the process of building a solar kiln. Not so much to dry lumber faster but to create lumber that was, at least for a brief time, 7% mc for those simpletons who won't buy anything else.
Responding to the market. But at least I know that solar kiln dried will be close to air dried in machinability. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
So What is the right moisture level to have the wood at to trim out my house I live in Battle Creek MI.
Thanks Jim III
The short answer is "I don't know". If your wood is in equilibrium, there will be minimal movement. What you want is whatever is normal for your climate, which is exactly what happens when you air dry. Any further drying is pointless as the wood will take on moisture until it's in equilibrium.
My guess is somewhere around 13-15%, which will change with time of year and application. Interior trim? Assuming you run central heat and ac, both are usually very drying. When I visit a potential customer I take along a meter to see how they live. This is for furniture, usually more critical than house trim. My thought is that mc is often taken way out of proportion and very rarely critical. With furniture, failures usually have more to do with poor design than too-wet or too-dry wood.
The commercial place here, that sells most of the small-quantity lumber, kiln dries to 7%. Last time I was out there I went for white oak. Took my meter along and guess what, 15% mc. The oak was stored in a shed open to our summer humidity. Yeah, they probably did dry it to 7%, but unless you take precautions, it won't stay anywhere close to that. Nor would I want it to. Too dry.
When we lived in Denver, OTOH, air dried was 7%. Anybody with 15% lumber needed to dry it some more before use, or risk strange things happening with the finished product. Movement is quite predictable, relative to species and sawing. Not likely anything you need to concern yourself with, assuming normal trim. Sometimes with furniture I do.
Hope I haven't muddied the water. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
ya should not have bailed out on FWW so fast..this new issue has a pretty good primer on air dry and EMC..a little chart too..pretty informative..
Me, I just rely on temp. of the wood..if it feels cold against my skin..it's too wet..if it is warmish..it is dry enough for trim and such..been lucky so far..lol
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
ya should not have bailed out on FWW so fast..this new issue has a pretty good primer on air dry and EMC..a little chart too..pretty informative..
Well I'll go check out the issue. Certainly not above buying one. I rely heavily on Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" (Taunton Press). My first annual woodworkers' conference, he was one of the presenters. And the one that every other presenter wanted to hear.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
ok so I just need to get a moisture meter and check wood that is already in the house and be within a few percent and I will be ok. So if I cut my own lumber and stick it in my basement stickered up it will be good to go in a few months the way i understand it?
Thanks Jim III
...stick it in my basement...good to go in a few months...
well, maybe... is your basement conditioned? - - a humid, stagnant basement will not facilitate drying - - unless it's a civilized space, I would recommend a box fan and dehumidifier -
what species are you thinking of? trees have a lot more moisture in them in the spring and summer, if you are felling and cutting starting now, some species will literally drip moisture after being cut - more moisture = more dry time "there's enough for everyone"
I am thinking red oak and the basement is heated and airconditioned and i can put a dehumidifer in .
Thanks Jim III
red oak isn't very decay resistant while white oak is extremely decay resistant.. I wouldn't use red oak....
if the basement is airconditioned it's already dehumidified..
red oak isn't very decay resistant while white oak is extremely decay resistant..
I'm sure you know, but it bears repeating, only the heartwood is decay resistant.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
hey Tom..small hijack here..whats yer take on termite resistance comparing yellow poplar and white oak..seems the owner of this old school house I'm involved in is sold on yellow poplar..says it's better than white oak..
I pulled some porch flooring here at the palace..all W.O. from the forties..all the sap wood was gone, but the heart is as good as new..
I don't see any poplar anywhere..mostly W.O...in the house..the chestnut seems to have taken a beating,,and the red oak is totally shot..
seems they woulda used pop if they knew it was better..this school house's joists are still ok (1850-1880)..and they LOOK like poplar..kinda hard to tell, without cutting into them
anyway..how ya feel on this one?
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You got me. Don't know.
Hoadley doesn't go into it at all.
The USGS Wood Handbook says " Only a limited number of woods grown in the US offer any marked degree of natural resistance to termite attack. The close-grained heartwood of California redwood has some resistance, expecially when used above ground. Very resinous heartwood of southern pine is practically immune, but wood of this type is not available in large quantities or suitable for many uses."
Termites follow the grain of the wood in their tunnelling. The only resistance white oak would have would be those tyloses, not much barrier for a termite, I'd guess. So maybe poplar is better. But according to these sources, it ain't much. I know they munch chestnut.
My experience is that black locust and particularly our local cedar both are generally unbothered by termites. And also both not commercially available.
How about "the customer is always right"? Just don't forget to void all warranties.
Wanna know why I build concrete houses? <G> Bug food, what?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If I'm not mistaken the original poster was from Michigan.. Michigan like Minnesota doesn't know what a termite is. While we do have carpenter ants, if you keep your wood dry (with good design and proper attention to detail) they are not an issue!
I guess god is making up for us having to live through our winters!
It wasn't till I visited Africa that I realized what a blessing it is to live in a place where it freezes hard every winter. Of course it doesn't take a lot frost to reap the blessing, and that's why I live in Colorado instead of Montana. That and the fact that it's easier to make a living here.
If I'm not mistaken the original poster was from Michigan.. Michigan like Minnesota doesn't know what a termite is.
Right. My response was to Sphere's question. I failed to quote his Kentucky question in my response. Sorry about the confusion.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
yeah..Thanx Tom..geez we got termites..I set a removed heartpine siding board on the ground in Jan...picked it up the other day..little buggers were eating the paint..and a little early wood..
customer is always right..lol..so are the termites.
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Bear in mind that too rapid drying is also a problem, so go a little easy with drying of the air. I also use a humidity monitor. Again, not critical. Outside air humidity should be your guide. Even with our very humid summers, air drying works fine.
Air circulation is usually more of an issue. Doesn't take much circulation, but a little is necessary. If you don't get convection currents, a small fan will help. And not the fan pulling air out of the dehumidifier. Size is about right for a small stack, but you don't want air that dry forced directly against your lumber. Uneven drying would result. Looking for slow, even drying to get the best lumber. Your efforts now will reward you when you go to mill the wood.
Probably not a problem, but make sure there's no direct sunlight, or the exposed boards will dry too rapidly and check.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
pretty simple to find out.. jab a moisture meter into a few pieces of dry trim..
Whatever they average is what you should shoot for.. plus or minus a few points.. I put up black walnut exterior trim that was 9 points above the norm and it's now been up for almost a year and a half.. hasn't shrunk any and the joints are just as tight as when they were new..
There is a real reason that wood for outside construction isn't dried to the level that furniture wood is.. evan interior trim doesn't require 7% moisture for nice tight joints.. all that needs to happen is reasonably dry wood sit around for a week or so prior to installation.. same as flooring
Sam
how about now? got these pricings off their web site a few minutes ago
Model 712 (12.5"), with 5HP Motor & Steel Extension Tables
Reg. $2,375.95Now just $1,395.00*Model 718 (18"), with 5HP Motor & Steel Extension Tables
Reg. $3,140.95Now just $1,595.00*Model 725 (25"), with 7.5HP Motor & Steel Extension Tables
Reg. $4,567.95Now just $2,398.00*:o) tempting...........all resources going into house right now. After I sell the old place though I'll be putting in an order.
sam
"I'd be inclined to deal with bent board by cutting it into two or three shorter ones."
Ian,
Me too. But if you do need a very long straight board, chalk line and some kind of powered hand saw are the way to go. I've even had very good success running unplaned (unjointered) boards through a thickness planer for flattening (48" jointers are not that common) Definitely won't take out a twist though.
Jon
j, here's a link to a thread from a year ago when I was doing what you contemplate 28293.1 peruse it and you might glean some information -
random widths and lengths, huh? - - don't like that much, I'd get double the amount calculated to make up for ineffecient cutout - - on the aforelinked project, we made flooring in addition to trim so we could sort and match - - oak is particularly problematic because there are many species that comprise 'red oak' or 'white oak' and in the stained floor they match close enough, but as casing around a doorway, the subtle difference in grain and color smack you in the face - and this is in addition to the consideration of the differences in grain appearance between flat sawn and quarter sawn.
woods like cherry and walnut are somewhat more forgiving because they don't display much pronounced grain patterns
I don't agree the equipment requirements are as stringent as some here indicate - a decent table saw with outfeed support, and a sharp blade (or 3) and a $400 planer (I did the project with a Delta 2-speed and 3 sets of knives @$40) and a chop/scm saw are essentials, I dealt with the edges with my workbench and hand planes - - for 'art' work like this, I'm as fast as a jointer - and can do a nicer job of 'rolling' the edges than a router -
I would be interested to hear more about the specifics of your trim scheme - plinth blocks? need thicker material - quarter round/shoe mold? gonna need a shaper/W&H or somesuch - profiled stock? gotta plan for it in regards to both stock and machines - etc -
hey - you can do it, but you won't save money or time...
edit: to correct the link
"there's enough for everyone"
Edited 4/12/2004 8:38 pm ET by David Doud
here's the correct link to last years project - sorry 28293.1 "there's enough for everyone"
Ya will have a lot of waste and ya will have to dispose of a lot of shavings. Also ya will have a lot of work getting it all ready.
To worry about? Maybe having the equipment to do the milling . . . heavy tablesaw with long outfeed table, big jointer, 8" preferred, 15" planer, not a portable, please, serious hearing protection, lots of space.
A place to dump maybe three cubic yards of sawdust and planer shavings.
We are presuming you know all this, though, and have all this gear.
It looks to me like Johnson will sell it to you two sides planed, not edged. Why don't you go for that?
Unless you're buying high dollar furniture wood, go for the S2S. I generally get the 4/4, which is usually 15/16" with some rough spots.
A portable planer will do fine to finish the surface to what you want. I usually rip the widths, and then finish on the planer prior to routing profiles.
If you're got a jointer fine, if not use a straight slider on yout TS that you can clamp your work to. When you rout the profile the edge will usually be removed too.
Tom, when I buy S2S 4/4 I usually get 13/16". Are you sure you get the extra 1/8 or am I getting taken?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I usually get 15/16" in Oak, Maple, and Poplar. I need this for edgebanding 3/4" ply so I'll have enough overhang to trim.
When I buy, I usually ask for 15/16". The supplyer I use usually has both on hand. The 13/16" is usually smoother, and ready to use.
I don't think you're getting taken, just that the smoother is what people usually order when asking for S2S. Might want to ask for "rough".
I'll bet the 15/16 is coming out of 5/4 lumber, if there isn't a lot of hit-and-miss. 13/16 is the standard for 4/4 lumber.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I get lumber at 15/16ths and 13/16ths. JUst a little more planing on the 15/16
I have bought a variety of wood species from LL Johnson and their charges to take rough stock down to S2S are minimal. My suggestion is that you hand pick rather than accepting random widths. If you aren't cose enough to one of their locations, send then a cut list and ask them to sort. The sort fee is also fairly minimal.
If you haven't bought from them before, make sure to check out their specials section in the "Straight Grain" on their site. If you need lots of BF, some of these deals are quite good.
I've milled zillions of feet of rough hardwood, and my opinion is, don't do it. Buy S2S1E. You can see the grain. You'll get stuff that's run on a straight-line rip saw and will be a lot straighter than what you can make on a small jointer and tablesaw. Chances are good that their planers will produce a smoother surface with less tearout than yours too. I would only mill rough lumber if my budget was so low as to absolutely require it. Otherwise I would leave milling to the pros with the big machines. Then I would rip and crosscut my pieces and take them to someone with a widebelt sander to finish the good side.
Jim,
that is exactly what I do.. Buy direct from a sawmill and save a fortune!
I buy hardwood for less than I can buy sheetrock! Right now I have about 10,000bd.ft. in my yard, all of it is fine hard wood..
There are several approaches to buying wood.. what I do is buy what is known as mill run! that is wood exactly as it comes off a log.. that way I get the real gems.. The burl, the fiddleback, the crotch and all the really stuning pieces. I also get a little more waste but that hasn't been a problem in the 20,000 bd.ft. that I've bought so far..
Buy direct from a sawmill that saws enough so they have a lot of trees on hand but not so big that everything is structured..
I'd hate to go into the office and try to explain everything to a secratary first....I'd hate to have to type up orders in triplicate and submit it to the supervisorthree weeks prior to ordering..
Now you need to understand the economics of a sawmill to get the best deals..
If you go in and ask for 16 pieces of...... they aren't going to be much of a help .. they want to get rid of whole bunkers of wood..
So think of what you need, double it and then round it up to the nearest huundred bd.ft. (bunkers tend to be around 1000 bd.ft +- 200 bd.ft.)_ don't worry about the price per.. what you want is the price per thousand.. (that's usually the raw wholesale price) For example I pay around 80 cents a bd.ft. when I buy white oak timbers.. If I want a bunker of lumber it may be as little as 65cents per.bd. feet by the bunker.. (mill run)
if I want them to sort it I then pay a premium to get FAS or #1 or 2
when you buy Mill run you get about 35 to 40% FAS and the balance will be divided between #1 (with about 5% #3 to use as either short pieces or firewood) surpisingly burls,fiddle back,crotches, birdseye, etc. don't grade better than a #2 (unless the mill operator has a market for specialty boards)
The deal you get depends a lot on how the milloperator sees you.. If you seem like you are going to be a pain to him he'll try to blow you off on the other hand if he thinks that you will provide him with ready cash and order enough to make it worth his while he will often set aside special boards for you and make sure that you get what you need when you need it..
i read an article once that talked about waste in milling and methods used to reduce it such as lasar guided equipmnet and narrow kerf blades etc.
The uypshot from surveying producers across the country is that each stage in the operation costs about 15% waste and that has been close to my experience as well. It works close enopugh for estimating. Some processes are 11% and others are 17% but it all comes out.
So suppose you buy the rough milled stock and you need a thousandf bd feet of finish product.
To plane each side
times 1.15
times 1.15
equals 1322 bd ft
to rip and block out
times 1.15
equals 1520 bd ft
to mill to pattern
times 1.15
equals 1780 bd ft
If you are getting wood less than select in quality, I wood knot order less than 2000 bd ft for a finished product requiring 1000 bd ft
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I have a band saw mill and go thru gads of diffrent type of lumber.Id get 50% more lumber than u figure if ur getting mill run.Especially if ur going to make trim.The wild grain;crotches and knots can be used by cabinetmakers to great effect but for trim there nothing like ripping a board and having it curl around and hit u in the head from it being "reaction wood".
If at all possible have it planed by someone else.Its the job i hate most.Tons of material handling .Easily worth .25 @ft.
Take ur time drying it.U may flash dry it but it may "case harden" on u and act like a coiled mainspring when u go to use it.
One thing i like about having the mill is I can rip 20 boards at a time in one pass;saves alot of table saw work.
Have fun..if u love wood its a revealing and satisfying process.Just takes some sweat.
Edited 4/12/2004 7:55 pm ET by Treetalk
there are a few posts here that make a bigger deal than is warranted. I buy rough sawn on a regular basis. Usually I pay the extra for shop time to get the stuff milled up in a hurry.
I just bought 100 board feet of 4/4 wide plank quarter sawn white oak. ($5.50 BDFT). They planed it to 3/4" and straight line ripped it in about 25 minutes. cost to me for milling was $20.00.
the straight line rip is as good as a jointer. Their big planer nets a more uniform thickness than my machine. If I had brought the wood back to my shop to mill it would have taken a few hours. what would I save? Before I go for material I call ahead to see when I can get my order milled.
For the record 4/4 means 1 inch nominal. My supplier can plane it to 7/8" planing both sides, one side clean enough for cabinet work.
Edited 4/12/2004 9:01 pm ET by maverick
I buy lots of rough-sawn hemlock from a local mill for outdoor projects, and I pick out the lumber by hand.
On their stack off the mill I'd say 2/3 of it is what I'd call "no good". There are cracks, voids, bark, rounded-over edges, etc. Yeah, I could rip a 8" board to use as a six, but I'm paying for the 8, so, no.
If I let them deliver it I'd have to order 3x as much or at least order 20% more and a standard size larger on each width I needed.
So, moral of the story - know what your mill's quality is like, and if at all possible pick your own wood. Of course, that's always true, right?
Frenchy, you have some good points, but some people have different limits than you. Even at your prices, buying 1000 bf of wood would cost $800 or more. And where do you store the extra? If a person is set up properly, it's a good deal.
I have to agree with others here...it seems like some posters are trying to scare jim away from his original idea...and that's unfortuante. if he goes into it with his eyes open, it could be fun and economical.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ahh the posters that tell me I cant do it just make sure I will. The ones that tell me how will get all the credit when I am done. These posts have been SUPER helpful and I sure appreciate it. Keep it coming
Thanks Jim III
OK so some of us have been suggesting your project is an industrial scale undertaking. So how might you do it? well there are some basic considerations which will affect how much effort you have to go to
will you be buying mill run or S2S1E? will it be kiln (or air) dryed or wet?how wide is the trim to be? how much do you need to mill?how much space do you have?
You've admitted to having a table saw, mitre saw and 6in jointer.
step 1 is make yourself two travel carts — this will make moving the pieces around the various stages of the milling process much easier. As you process your lumber feed material off one cart through the machine and stack the out feed on the second cart.
step 2 is set up you work space to allow the different processes to follow a logical sequence. Depending upon the available space you may want to reconfigure your shop before each of the steps.
step 3 start by cutting your lumber into machineable lengths. My preference at this step is to cross cut with a chop saw (radial arm, mitre or SCMS) and cut to rough width with a band saw mainly because putting a large odd shaped piece through a band saw is much safer than putting the same piece through a table saw. However, you can also snap a string line and cut along it with a circuar saw free hand. Your aim is the recovery of useable pieces of lumber. Pieces of similar width without excessive wild grain, bend, wind or cup. Sort your material into nominal 6in, 8in, etc finished widths – the 6in finish material may be 6-1/2in wide at this stage. You will now have an idea of how much of what you bought is useable. If you have S2S1E you may be able to skip most of this process.
step 4 is to plane one face. Ideally you would use a jointer with "aircraft carrier" sized tables but the same result can be achieved with a thickness planer and sled or a lunch box planer with extended in and out feed tables. or by using hand planes.
step 5 is thickness your lumber to the required thicknesses. If you lumber is wet do this in two stages initially planing your lumber oversize and then allowing it to air dry to near optimum MC before planing to final thickness. This step will go faster if you make up a thickness guage so that you can tell if a piece is too thick or too thin prior to offering it to the thicknesser. The aim is to sort the lumber prior to feeding it through the thicknesser so that you minimise the number of times you have to adjust the depth of cut.
step 6 joint one edge and rip to the required finished width. Some will argue you do this before you mill to the required thickness.
step 7 mill your profiles.
BTW I've left out where you stop to empty the dust/chip collector, change and sharpen knives, have a beer.
step 8 kick back and boast of how you milled all the trim for your house!
You're in Michigan, right? There's a guy in Lambertville that will mill your wood into casing and base for $.25/lin ft. Email me if you want his name and number.
Jim Diedrich
Jim, I think it boils down to this. You are going to do this for yourself. The results of all this milling time will be seen by you in your own home. You obviously have the time to do it. You have considered this, and don't figure the time spent handling and milling all this wood should be more profitably spent on something else.
You'll enjoy doing it.
All of us, me included, who cautioned against it, probably feel that all that milling time would be better spent by us building, designing, managing, goofing off, or whatever it is that we feel we do best, or at least better.
Some of us have said for you not to do it because of what we've seen in the various modern milling operations, with heavy, precise machinery, material handling to tie it all together, optical scanning for grading, etc. It just makes us feel a little stone-aged, milling stuff ourselves, even if we're working our boards through a new 15-inch Powermatic with a spiral head.
A well-detailed house might need up to 3600 lf of good boards, to trim it out. For most of us, that is just too much wood fiber to hand-feed through all that machinery.
But you, you've got livestock pens for all the sawdust, wood stoves or burn piles for all the rips and culls, earmuffs for your ears, and time on your hands.
It will be a labor of love. Go to the yard, take a friend to make board-sorting easier, and tell 'em there at the yard to be prepared to break open a half-dozen or more new bunks, 'cause you'll be sorting and culling for a while.
Buy twice the BF you think you'll need, and then be prepared to go back for a little more.
Have fun!
Got any wood workin friends? My sister didn't have the room for the 1500 bd.ft. of ash that I got her untill she found out that it was 15 cents a bd.ft. then she stacked it up in her driveway and drove around it all summer and fall while it dried out.. She now has a ash floor on her second floor that cost her $150.00 and a little time to stack it..
bargins seldom are as easy as some kid selling you his $20.00 dollar bill for a pack of bubble gum.. Sometime you need to be creative and do a little extra work..
All the lumber for my trim came from Johnson’s, (and my house is done in the craftsman style, that’s A LOT of trim). I had them plane two sides and rip one edge straight, the cost compared to the time it saved was well worth it, not to mention I didn’t have to sharpen any planer knives. I had enough work ripping it down and molding the edges and that generated plenty of sawdust. As to the amount, I ordered a little more than double what I thought it would take, and had just enough left to build the Morris chairs, settle, end tables and a couple book cases for one room. (I’m still working on the rest of the furniture)
Theres going to be a whole lot of water coming out of that oak if its fresh sawn.Its going to keep that dehumidifier busy and i hope it piped to a drain cuz youll be emptying it alot.
Well the ac has its own condensate pump that goes to the septic tank and in the winter it is damn dry anyway.
Frenchy why am i worried about decay for inside trim? cause red oak is cheaper than White oak but if I could find it at the price you are talking 80 cents a board foot i would buy it. Johnson I found out only sells graded lumber not mill run so it is more I am thinking buying some fAS and 1 common soon as i figure out the right amount.
Thanks all
Jim III yes from Michigan