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Cabinet contractor seeks advice from …

| Posted in General Discussion on November 7, 2001 05:56am

*
Hello everybody.
My name is Scott Olsen and I am a cabinet contractor. My business is going on five years old and I’m currently in the process of focusing my efforts toward High end, residential, custom, cabinetry. It has been my experience thus far that It’s usually the general contractor who makes the decision of what cabinet company is awarded the job. My reason for writing, therefore, is to ask contractors who build custom homes: “What do you look for in a cabinet sub?”

I can, of course, tell people about all the wonderful things that my company can provide for them, but what I need to know is what is really going to catch the eye of a building contractor who is building a custom home? If I’m going to restructure my business so as to provide a product and service that will be useful to builders, I’d like to take some of the guess work out of it and simply ask. There may be services that you have never known a cabinet sub to provide before, but always wished that they would. I would be most greatful to anyone who replies.

Thank you all

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Replies

  1. Mike_Smith | Nov 02, 2001 11:10pm | #1

    *
    .. i look for knowledge.. customer hand-holding.. a showroom or access to a showroom..
    pricing.. scheduling...and performance..
    warranty issues are important..

    price is not as important.. but my price should be better than the price a retail buyer can get..

    .. i want a sub watching my back like i'm watching his...

    1. Mark_McDonnell | Nov 03, 2001 07:47am | #2

      *And to add to Mike's most excellent post-----Don't lie to me, ever.Have some standard lines with standard, predictable prices, wow them with different door styles. Example: Have a set rate a G.C. can put a guess on for carcase fabrication, with the real mark-up on custom, one of a kind doors and details in moldings.The one thing a G.C. tries to avoid is embarrassment. Not only for ourselves, but for the client as well. Have a drawing program that will provide a prospective. Create a case with different species, stains & finishes.If you can't provide a showroom, go to Kinko's and produce a "book", a G.C. can carry around, with pictures of everything you do. Also, introduce yourself to all the high-end interior decorators you can.......real money there!Luck

      1. Scott_Olsen | Nov 03, 2001 07:06pm | #3

        *Hey thanks you guys. I really appreciate the input. Here's another question. what about melamine versus finished plywood interiors? Do you know if your clients prefer one over the other?

        1. Jason_DD_ | Nov 03, 2001 08:29pm | #4

          *as for what most folks want from a sub, add "return phone calls promptly" to the list.as for whether folks prefer ply vs. mdf, true veneer vs. melamine... it is to difficult to make that guess. too many variables (kitchen or closet, painted or clear finish...) imho though, what most clients do want is to see what the options are (materials, costs, relative "value") and then make a decision, usually based on the big picture. having this information available shouldn't cost you much, as you probably already know the answers off the top of your head. could be included in the a "package" that Mark M. suggests above.

          1. Mark_McDonnell | Nov 04, 2001 12:40am | #5

            *My Cabinet maker, (the greatest) makes my kitchen cabinets carcases from white melemine, exterior veneered to match the doors, 'cause I like the way it bounces light and is a brighter interior. He likes the fact that it doesn't need finishing.Offices and bookcases: finished plywood.

          2. RayT | Nov 04, 2001 05:24am | #6

            *Scott;I build several houses a year and have a dependable set of subs for everything I sub out -- except cabinets. Man, I have the worst luck with cabinet contractors. I cannot find one who will do what he says, WHEN he says he'll do it!I run a pretty tight ship with my projects. I make up a schedule before we ever break ground that spells out what needs to be accomplished each day. I throw in a few "fat" days just to let everybody take a breath and get caught up in case something didn't work out like I thought it should. I try to keep it realistic -- and we almost always are able to keep to the schedule. For example, if we started excavation on Aug 1st I tell my roofer that he is scheduled for Sept. 7th, the HVAC guy that he is scheduled for rough-in on Sept. 11th and finish on Oct.19th, the plumber should rough-in on Sept. 13th and finish on Oct.22nd, and the electrician needs to rough-in on Sept. 17th and finish on Oct.19th. Most of my subs appreciate knowing when their services will be needed and schedule me in on that date. Then they work their other "not so organized" jobs around me.Well, I cannot find a cabinet contractor who will stick to a schedule. They say they will....just to get the job, then I hear every excuse in the book why they can't get it done when they promised. I've heard em all. "The laminate got backordered." "The hardware got lost." "My best guy went hunting for a week." "Our delivery truck broke down." "We dropped one while we were loading it and have to rebuild it." They all have line of promises a mile long just to get the job. Once they get their deposit, they figure that you're not going to lose your deposit money and go somewhere else. Besides....by the time it becomes obvious that they aren't going to meet the schedule it is too late to find someone else. I get so tired of having to make up excuses as to why the cabinets aren't done yet. And as a builder, it doesn't make me look too good in my clients eyes. I don't have this kind of trouble with any other trade. I treat my subs right and they keep coming back. I could make a cabinet contractor some money if he would just work with me. I certainly don't use the lowest priced subs -- not by a long shot. Their work is good, they work with my schedule, and I pay them what they ask - when they ask. I just cannot find a cabinet contractor who will keep his word. They don't realize that when they don't perform, it throws everybody else off..... the plumber, the electrician, the painter, the tile setter, the flooring installer, the trim carpenter.....then the clients can't move in when they expected.BUT....you can bet that they are Johnny-on-the-spot with their bill! Ten minutes after they finish up they shove a bill in my hand and ask for a check!I like Mike's suggestions. I need someone to hold my clients hand and lead them through the selection process. Most people aren't familiar with the terminology and available options. And nothing is worse than waiting in anticipation for a pricey set of cabinets only to find out they are not what the client expected. They need to be shown EXACTLY what they are getting! And, by the way, almost everyone likes the bright, easy to clean, melamine interiors.Sorry for the rant....I needed to get that off my chest. Good luck in your business.Ray

          3. Adrian_Wilson | Nov 04, 2001 06:09am | #7

            *I just have to make a comment. Not excusing your cabinetmakers, or the circumstances....but if you poll a hundred cabinetmakers, you will probably find the biggest headache they have (the customer part aside), is our suppliers. You need stuff on time, and get an okay...when it is late, you have every reason to be pissed. Same with us and suppliers, it's unbelievable sometimes; "Yeah, that's in stock, no problem." When the truck shows up, and sometimes it doesn't show up, you're lucky if it's 75% right. I live a good ways from the regional distributors; for lumber and sheet goods, the truck comes every two weeks. I've had them send me black sheets of solid surface when I ordered white. I've seen half my order make it onto the truck, and half not. I've seen orders, phoned in, confirmed by fax, and reconfirmed by phone the day before delivery, not make it on to the truck at all. Even if they courier the sheets up, I'm screwed. On hardware, it's worse; in five years of dealing with one company, I've had maybe a half dozen orders where everything was as it was supposed to be. And these are the best of what's available to me.Which is to say, sometimes the 'line' may not be a line. I don't know why it is , but it's one of the banes of our lives....it seems like a simple thing to me. i tell you exactly what I want, you put it in a box or whatever, and send it to me when I tell you. send a bill, and i will write a cheque. It's hard to get the first part of the equation through to the supply side (BTW, I'm waiting for a part from Delta now for three freaking months....how hard can this be?)Thers a rant right back atcha.

          4. RayT | Nov 05, 2001 06:27am | #8

            *Adrian......Please don't think I was pointing a finger at you! I've been reading your posts for a long time now and have gained respect for and knowledge from you.I am just relating my experience with cabinet contractors out here in the great Northwest. I don't know why the cabinet industry has such lousy suppliers. Maybe we could work on this problem together. How can I help?I do know this......If I have a consistant problem with a certain supplier, and I know that I have no better option available to me, then I try to get my order placed 2 or 3 weeks early so I will have time to deal with screw-ups. If they get the order right the first time, then I have a storage problem to deal with plus my money is out 3 weeks longer than it should be which can present a cash flow problem. But those two problems are a lot easier to deal with than waiting until the last minute when I'm facing a deadline and then having my supplier screw-up.I know you guys have problems I'm not privy to since I'm not in the cabinet business. But there's gotta be a better way! Is there anything I can personally do as the general contractor to make life easier for you? I will gladly implement any constructive suggestions because we are both after the same thing...... happy clients. Please tell me how I can help.Ray

          5. Scott_R | Nov 05, 2001 05:34pm | #9

            *Scott,It's not difficult to find subs that do quality work. However the ones that can get the job done with little headache to the builder get called again and referred to other builders. Do what you say and say what you do. Keep ALL your promises and if you can't, contact the contractor/supervisor ASAP (this irritates me the most).When problems arise don't state excuses, state what you're doing to fix it. Make sure you conduct yourself very professionally on the job, like clean language. Don't speak for the GC with the customer. Take care punch list items immediately! Scott R.

          6. SHGLaw | Nov 05, 2001 07:07pm | #10

            *Deliver on time. If the problem is your suppliers, then you didn't order early enough or plan ahead properly. I plan ahead, so why shouldn't everyone else?As for veneer vs. melamine, my carcass is always wood. Now this is very high end, so no mdf ever. And I don't do melamine ever. I'm less concerned with your having a show room, or even a book. I'm more concerned that you can build whatever is needed. But for those who remember when I was looking for someone to build "dressers" for the kitchen, kitchens for me are concept items and there's nothing off the rack about them.SHG

          7. Sgian_Dubh | Nov 06, 2001 11:57am | #11

            *Ray, It seems to me- and I'm not in that particular line of work for a good reason- that demands placed on the 'cabinetmaker' far outstrips what can actually be achieved. Everybody wants it yesterday, and for as little as possible. Save a dollar here on the drawer slides [which I'll happily charge $34+ a pair for, for the likes of Tandem full extension Undermounts] and cut back on this somewhere. Oh, yes, it's still got to look like a million dollars, but I'm only to get paid $10,000.I ocassionally get 'requests for quotes' from builders, sometimes along the lines of, "We need the best that can be built, so you you'll need to build it on site." To me, that is just about the whackiest, and daftest it can get. After all, my saw weighs nigh on 1,500 lbs., and runs on 3 phase, so forget moving the bloody thing! My thicknessing planer weighs something similar, and also runs on three phase, so I'm not moving my crap out of my workshop, thanks very much. However, I'm more than happy to to do 'built ins' for you builders if you, and your clients, are more than happy to pay the going rate, which in my case, always seems to start at about $600 a linear foot for a really cheap job, and moves up without any effort to about $2,500 a linear foot. The latter price usually includes such things as solid zebrano, santos rosewood, maybe a bit of ebony, some hard maple, or maybe solid walnut, hand-cut dovetails, hand polishing, etc.. The list goes on, but one thing for sure, none of this stuff is kitchen cabinets! And none of my wee screed helps anyone here, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Slainte, RJ.

          8. RayT | Nov 07, 2001 03:07am | #12

            *Sgian....My compaint lies rarely with the price. It's service!!! The cabinet contractors I am referring to are more than willing to promise they can meet the schedule so they can land the job. And then I get to hear the million excuses as to why they can't keep to the schedule after it's too late to find another cabinetmaker.And honestly....the price of the kitchen has nothing to do with it. It happens just as often (maybe more) on high end jobs as it does with economy kitchens.And Sgian....I always tell the cabinet contractor, "Don't promise me something you can't do. If you are too busy this time around, no problem. I'll get someone else this time and give you a shot at the next one. But if you say you can do it and take the job, then please, DO IT!" I don't take every job that comes along, and they don't have to either. There is no shame in saying "I'm sorry, we are just too busy right now to meet your schedule. We don't like to make commitments we can't keep. But we would love the chance to bid on your next one." Your honesty will be appreciated and you will get another opportunity.They go into this job with their eyes wide open. They voluntarily accept the work knowing the schedule. I don't force the job on them, try to nickel & dime them to death, then bitch because they can't build and install it yesterday. I give them months of advance notice. They know whether they've got the job before I even break ground! What does it take? What else can I do? I don't ask for something for nothing. I pay promptly. You seem to be of the opinion that builders want a million dollar kitchen for $10,000 but nothing could be farther from the truth. Builders want a smooth running job and happy clients.Ray

          9. Adrian_Wilson | Nov 07, 2001 03:39am | #13

            *Ray....thanks for the compliment. It sure sounds like you're doing it right from your side, and you sound like someone I could work with. I don't work for contractors much, here, cause most of them aren't that professional, so i was sticking to retail and some commercial clients (before I went back to teaching for the next little while anyway)....that way I deal directly with the client, and more often than not get some say into which contractor or carpenter or whatever gets to do the rest of the job.I don't really know what to suggest. My problems with suppliers is all about information management and communication. Your problems sound more like people telling you fibs, and that's a tough one.

          10. Sgian_Dubh | Nov 07, 2001 05:56am | #14

            *Ray, Like Adrian said, you do sound like a builder I could work for. I was talking in generalities based on my very limited experience of doing work for builders. I can't recall working for one that didn't want to reduce my price somewhere, but retain the quality. As for honesty, well, I know what work I can do in a day, and I just say that I can start next week, or I can't start until at least three months hence, or whatever. If my client is willing to wait, fine. If not I just don't get the job, but no other cabinetmakers make my furniture, so if they want my furniture,.....you get the drift. ;-) Slainte, RJ.

  2. Scott_Olsen | Nov 07, 2001 05:56am | #15

    *
    Hello everybody.
    My name is Scott Olsen and I am a cabinet contractor. My business is going on five years old and I'm currently in the process of focusing my efforts toward High end, residential, custom, cabinetry. It has been my experience thus far that It's usually the general contractor who makes the decision of what cabinet company is awarded the job. My reason for writing, therefore, is to ask contractors who build custom homes: "What do you look for in a cabinet sub?"

    I can, of course, tell people about all the wonderful things that my company can provide for them, but what I need to know is what is really going to catch the eye of a building contractor who is building a custom home? If I'm going to restructure my business so as to provide a product and service that will be useful to builders, I'd like to take some of the guess work out of it and simply ask. There may be services that you have never known a cabinet sub to provide before, but always wished that they would. I would be most greatful to anyone who replies.

    Thank you all

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