Problem: Loose flat center panels in a cabinet door. The cabinet door is typical style and rail construction with a 1/4″ plywood panel.
Like many contractors out there, I receive catalogs for many things.
In one of the cabinet catalogs I saw some small rubber or foam balls about the size of a BB. They are used when constructing raised panel or flat panel doors to tighten and wedge the panel to the styles and rails without fastners or glue. This method allows for expansion and contraction of the panel and styles and rails without problem.
Does anyone now what they are called and where I can get some?
Does anyone have alternate and successful ideas for the situation?
The cabinet builder is building a home in Mexico and has been flakey in getting back to me and fixing the problem.
Replies
I've made quite a few Shaker-style cabinet doors, with 1/4" plywood panels, and bought many hundreds more from good door makers. The universal detail is to pin or staple the panel to the frame, from the back, diagonally thru the panel into the frame. I still have a large box of Paslode 5/8" brads from those days, and the pinner to go with it. That should take care of it. To use the 'space balls' you need to install them as the door is assembled, if I'm thinking of the same thing you are.
Another way is to use very thin shims and push them in the gap at the back. this stops the rattling, but it can look obvious on some doors. However, It's on the inside, so it might not matter. 3-4 per door should do it.
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http://www.blackbridgeonline.com/ (never dealt with them)
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Space balls are intended to counteract wood movement in the panel: they compress as the wood expands. Since you're using a plywood panel, wood movement is not an issue in the panel. Rail and stile movement at their narrow widths is negligible at best. It should be okay to glue or nail the panel in place.
The plywood won't expand or contract so why don't you just squirt / work some glue in from the back side? When the glue dries, no more loose panel rattles or shifting. Just make sure the panel is sitting in the frame in the same position that the finish was applied, otherwise you'll need to touch that up too.
We use a hot glue gun for this type of repair.
What I usually do is run several beads of silicone caulk on some waxed paper. When it's dry, you can peel it up and cut it to whatever length you need, and pop it into the groove to keep the panel from rattling about. Unless you want to disassemble your doors though, this method and similar ones won't work, since you can't get the stuff into the groove. If the panel is ply, I'd just squirt in some glue.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks to all. Calvins pic said 1000 words. It is too late to use space balls, and according to my fellow BTers, I really won't get movement in the plywood.
Pinning or glue. It could be that my cabinet man will repent and fix this rattling problem. If he wants the next job, whcih is ready....he'll git er dun. I am to talk to him today.
It could be that my cabinet man will repent and fix this rattling problem
Yeah, back in my servitude to the cabinet industry, we had on-going wars with and against "space balls" for both flat and raised panels. Some of that was because of the factory situation in whinch the doors were being built. Some was some product variance (some was from Purchasing being too cheap to get two different kinds from the vendor, and just assuming the cheapest would work in both kinds of door).
Now, for flat panel doors, I've found (occasionally) that glazing points can often be "snuck" in from the back of the panel to help cure rattles. Picture framing brads will also work (and are designed to "disappear" as well). Sometimes, though, if the environment is stable enough (construction is finished & the hvac is running), sometimes another coat of the topcoat will "bridge" the panel-to-frame joint enough to quiet the panels.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Thanks Capn.
When you ask questions and don't sell yourself as knowing it all, you learn alot.
blueeyeddevil is moving to Austin from Michigan. See post about no money down deals.
I asked him if he was prepared for the heat. I am sure I would not be prepared for the cold if I moved to Michigan.
blueeyeddevil is moving to Austin from Michigan. See post about no money down deals
Yeah, I remember the thread--I was wondering whether that was a permanent move or just for the development. Now I know.
Dunno which will be more of a culture shock, though--the way folk frame when their skills won't be dared by snowload every year; or dodging heat-related problems <g>.
We just have to tell him to start wearing all of his winter clothing all of the time, every day, until he gets down here. Won't really get him up to speed on the heat--but it may be the last time he feels like he needs to wear any of it again fro good long while <G>.
Just wait until the first time he sees StanPac, PH, TB, or the like build a slab in Austin . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The space balls will help keep the panel centered , but not stop the rattling of the panel .
Pinning with 5/8" pins from the back side pressing the panel forwards , but not penetrating the panel only pressing it tight to the face .
The panel and frame are then free to move without restriction , the door will stay flat .
You don't want to glue panels in , things need to be allowed to move .
dusty
The problem isn't that the panels aren't sized right(needing space balls), it's that the panels are too thin for the cope/stick joint that is causing the rattling. Most cope/stick cutters are around 1/4" and a lot of the cab shops are starting to use the cheap import veneer plywood for their 1/4" panels. This import veneer stuff runs from 1/2mm-1 1/2mm less than 1/4" plus the veneer is microscopically thin.
Even the large door company out here in SoCalif. (Decorative Specialties) uses brads to pin their panels in place. I use a Senco 5/8" brad pin nailer to nail my 1/4" panels and raised panels in place.
On raised panels, Only nail the the top and bottom towards the center of the panel, not along the edge. This allows for seasonal expansion and contraction. On 1/4" ply panels, I pin all the way around the panel. It helps push the panel tight against the front of the detail for a cleaner look
TX
I didn't read everybodies posts so maybe I'm repeating someone.
Just use a micro pinner and pin the panel in place, of course you know not to use to long of pins and shot them at an angle to avoid them coming out the front, not a good look.
Next time use space balls, and don't drop the damned things on the floor, they aren't that easy to clean up!
Doug
You guys are the bomb. thank you so much.
Doug U did not read all the post (probably busy like me) and I don't currently have time to respond to all, but you guys have certainly gone the extra mile.
I am confident I can solve the problem with rattling if my cabinet sub does not show up.
Smiling in Texas. THANKS!
beer.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
On me.
thank you.
Party on tx. !A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
plywood panels,,,glue em in, do it on all ones I build
Bud