Replies

1. 
   Jameslmiller | Feb 12, 2005 04:27am | #1

   What is the thickness and material used in original reface?

1. 
   user-57097 | Feb 12, 2005 04:37am | #2

   I'm not sure of the thickness. I don't have an ability to measure that thin. I was not in the house when it went on, so I am not sure of the manufacturer. It is not a real wood veneer, or if it is, it has a brown plastic esque backing. My problem is, I really don't know anything about veneer. It came in rolls, and I do have a few original scrap pieces kicking around. It is not paper thin, more like a poster board thickness.

1. 
   Jameslmiller | Feb 12, 2005 04:59am | #3

   Sorry, I'm not familiar with plastic backed veneer, you may want to experiment with contact cement it will be messy but it may work for you.

2. 
   WorkshopJon | Feb 12, 2005 05:16am | #4

   Try "water thin" cynoacrylate ie. "super glue" but that brand is crap..  Get the kind that comes with a Teflon catheter.  Best bet is a hobby shop or online.  An industrial sized bottle should set you back no more than $12.00  Last time I bought a quart I think I paid ~ $60.00

   WSJ

1. 
   user-57097 | Feb 12, 2005 05:23am | #5

   Now that you mention it, I have tried super glue as well. That lasted for about a day. By the way, I'm not sure it is plastic backed. It sort of looks that way when I peel it up a bit more. It's so thin I can't really tell. I'm sure it went on with contact cement originally, but I haven't worked with that stuff in 20 years or more. From what I recall, you have to spread it evenly on both surfaces and let it dry, then stick it together. I can't see how I could effectively accomplish that with it already in place. I had a hard time squeezing elmers in place due to the angles and directions of the separation.Thanks for your ideas!

3. 
   RichColumbus | Feb 12, 2005 05:50am | #6

   Can you get a close-up picture of the surfaces that have failed (glue side)?

   I have a sneaking suspicion that you have "iron on" product that has been used on these faces.  If so... bad application of an otherwise good product.  Iron on is OK for use with a banding machine (high heat, smooth application).  But if it was used on a laminated cabinet (and probably wasn't scuffed first)... and applied with a regular old iron... well, let's just say that I am amazed if it lasted 7 yrs.

   The product (if this is what it is) will have a really rough surface where the glue has separated from the facing.  It will feel about like gummy bears, melted and spread out with a light gritty substance (sorry, I am just trying to give you a visual for what the glue on that stuff is like... to help identify it).  Another reasonable description would be "rubber cement with bumps".

   If this is the case... your going to have a difficult time repairing it.  It's not impossible... but very time consuming and tedious.

   Before I write an essay on the needs to repair... let's first be sure what we are dealing with.  I look forward to your post either confirming or disproving my hunch.

   And as I said... if you can get a close-up pic... that would be very helpful.

1. 
   user-57097 | Feb 12, 2005 06:57am | #7

   Well I got excited for a few minutes. I thought you really had it pegged. However, when I went and looked again more closely and at multiple spots, it appears the brownish color was more of a reflection from the brown surface it is adhered to. I pulled a section pretty far out, and it does not have a brown back at all. The veneer is warped, (perhaps from water drips) and pulled of in lots of places, but if I had to guess, I would say there appears to be contact cement residue on the old cabinet face. Both surfaces feel dry and almost powdery, yet I could see no visible residue on my fingers. I think also because it has lasted so long it is unlikely it's an iron on. For some reason, I have it in my head that Sears did it. But it was the previous owner so I can't be sure. The doors and hardware are of a high quality, the crown and subsequent mouldings are also high quality, and they were installed very well, so I doubt that a short cut would be used. However, they paid to have blown in insullation pushed in from the outside of the house and holes were drilled, but no insullation was installed beyond the hole they drilled. SO they weren't the brightest people in town either. Thanks again for your ideas and help!

1. 
   goldhiller | Feb 12, 2005 07:10am | #8

   Do a trial in a couple areas with some 5 minute epoxy would be my advice at this point.Excess should clean up well with acetone if you do it right away.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

2. 
   RichColumbus | Feb 12, 2005 08:29am | #9

   Ok.. so it is not iron-on.

   The powdery substance leads me to believe that it is a water soluble glue (why they would use a water-soluble is beyond me).

   You can try to repair this... but anywhere steam, water vapor, good old fashioned humidity can penetrate... the glue will break down.  The only real cure would be to have the facings removed and re-done (FWIW, however, the removal will be easy... just use a steam iron).

    

   If you want a temp fix... you must remove as much of the old glue from both surfaces before using a good contact cement (which is what should have been used in the first place).  Remove the old glue with an exacto knife... using the sharp edge as a scraper.  Be careful, that veneer splits easily. 

   Buy some glue syringes from your favorite woodworking store.  Buy quite a few.. because you will booger them in no time.  You may have to open the hole that the product squeezes through with a large gage needle, depending on the viscosity of the contact cement you select.

   Use the syringes to get the contact cement in the corners and crevaces... being VERY careful not to get it on the face of the veneer.  Be sparing... but thorough.  Use your exacto knife to spread it if you have to (blades are not that expensive).

   Wait for the contact cement to set... and stick it CAREFULLY where you want it, working from the edge that is still stuck, to the edges.  Use a veneer roller to press out any small air bubbles, and assure complete adhesion.  Don't be afraid to put some muscle behind that veneer roller... air pockets are your enemy!

   When done... you will need to seal the faces wit h your sealer of choice.  It's best to use the same product as was used before.  Scuff the faces with 000 (0000 works best for polyurethane) steel wool... be sure to clean the surfaces REAL well (cloth, ten vacuum, then cloth again)... and apply the sealer.

   This will be tedious work.  Plan on doing a little at a time... as grasping that exacto knife will quickly produce cramps in your hands and/or fingers.

   Good luck.

1. 
   user-57097 | Feb 12, 2005 04:20pm | #10

   Thanks for the tips. I had an idea it would look like that but I hoped for some sort of easier solution. I think it is a water based adhesive, because as you mention, once it gets humid or wet, pieces start popping up. Tough to keep a working kitchen free from water and moisture. Now my concern is that I repair the places that have failed, only to wait for the rest to fail later! Lots of fun. Thanks for the guidance.

2. 
   DougU | Feb 12, 2005 07:24pm | #11

   Rich

   Your wrong about the iron on edge tape. Its been used successfully for many years, 7 not being many.

   Iron on edge tape should adhere just as well as tape put on by an edgebander. That is if the person doing it did it correctly.

   I first thought iron on edge tape until snovack described the glue.

   To make sure its not iron on you could take a piece of laminate or even a piece of metal flashing and hold it over the existing bad edge tape, then try to iron it back down. The laminate will protect the wood from burning. Of course ironing will also adhere yellow glue and some other adhesives.

   At this point if there is that much coming off  I would remove the whole works and start over. Having someone come in and redo just the edges shouldn't set you back that much.

   BTW, there is water soluble contact cement that is considered just fine in kitchen/bath areas.

   All water soluble glue/adhesive is not going to go south in the presence of water.

   Doug

1. 
   RichColumbus | Feb 13, 2005 02:53am | #13

   Water soluble, "second generation" glues would be fine... but what is the purpose of using that, when there are plenty of workable contact cements on the market?  The white powder, however, is a sign that it is probably first generation.  Just think of it as the difference between titebond... and titebond II... or even better... titebond III.

   And as far as iron on... I have no faith in iron on for this application.  It's too difficult to get the iron hot enough.. and you REALLY have to scuff the original surfaces.  Just not worth it, especially for an inferior product.  The stuff has been used for many years... and for many years it has failed.  I stand by my original statement... if it was iron-on, and it lasted 7 years... consider it lucky.

   An edge-banded piece also has the benefit of adhering to raw wood (plywood).  In refacing... you do not have that benefit.  Many times, the cabinets being refaced are laminates... and the iron-on will never adhere properly to a laminate, IMHO.

   The iron-on stuff is a quicky-cheap method of refacing.  many companies in our area tried it and sold quite a few refacing jobs.  Now... after the companies are long gone.. the veneer is peeling off and the HOs are faced with refacing it again... or replacing the cabinets.

2. 
   DougU | Feb 13, 2005 05:10am | #14

   Rich

   I'm not going to argue the merits of this job, haven't seen it, don't know anything about the prep work done on it.

   I have however been building cabinets for some 20 plus years and I know quite well what edge tape does and does not do.

   I thought this job was done some seven years ago, that's certainly way past first generation water soluble anything.

   As far as I know the white powder is powdered sugar. Hardly enough evidence to make a claim for anything.

   A common house hold iron will get hot enough to glue edgetape, matter of fact to hot. If the iron or whatever you are using is to hot the glue does not work like it was intended.

   We have an edge bander at work, it heats up to 195, you get it a lot hotter and it does not work like it was intended.

   If your experience with iron on edgetape is that it does not last past a few years I'd suggest re-evaluating the way your putting it on.

   I know that 15 years ago when I had no access to an edgebander and had to use iron on that that same edgetape is still there. I'm fairly sure that I'm not any better at applying it than most so I doubt my "luck" is what is holding that tape on.

   I do agree that I had the benefit of gluing my tape on raw wood, something that a reface person does not enjoy.

   And chances are that the person that was prepping the surface, if in fact he/she did prep, did not do a complete and through job.

   I'm sure that all edge tape is not created equal. I'm sure that the edgetape at Home Depot is not the same as that of a product that is supplied for the professional cabinet shop.

   I don't do reface cabinet work, but I'm guessing that I have done more than my share of edgetaping and laminate work, water soluble glue or contact cement is probably not the sole reason that this kitchen reface work did not hold up.

   All the rest is just plain guessing.

   Doug

4. 
   Isamemon | Feb 12, 2005 09:55pm | #12

   I believe Rich has your answers.

   But Ill throw this out there.

   About 9 years ago I worked for a cabinet company that switched to water based everything for OSHA regulations and also for when we were doing things in a person home, that they were living in, that we didnt kill them with fumes.

   9 years ago, and in my opinion, the early generation stuff, was junk, water based stuff is still going through revisions. At the time, it did not appear as junk. It was nice to work with a "friendly" product

   We have seen several projects that were glued and sealed 7-9 years ago, that are now trash, and my fomer employer has had to go back and fix a lot due to his "lifetime waranty" which he no longer offers.

   So kind of in defence of the original installers,  provided they installed it according to instructions and in a clean manner, they may have been trying to use something that was safe for the homeowner, safe for themselves, and a product, that reps had told everyone, was "the thing" to use.