Replies

1. 
   JeffBuck | Jun 07, 2003 08:59am | #1

   either or....

   I prefer a full tile floor.....then cabs...

   but it doesn't make much of a difference as far as cab install.

   And 1/4 is perfectly fine for a floor.....

   as a matter O fact......that don't matter much anyways....

   as backer board ISN'T structural.

   So 1/2" ain't doing ya nothing more than raising the floor height by another quarter.

   Most 1/4 is sold as flooring.....most 1/2 is billed for walls.....

   job I'm on now.....1/2 everywhere..floors and walls....because that's what the GC had the yard send me.

   Jeff

   Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

2. 
   nino | Jun 07, 2003 09:06am | #2

   If you're running a pattern in the tile such as a border or a design that uses different sizes of tile, then you should install the cabinets before you do the tile as the cabinets set your boundaries. Of course, you can measure where the cabinets will wind up and set the tile that way, but why go nuts.

3. 
   CAGIV | Jun 07, 2003 09:19am | #3

   Jeff is the resident master carpenter and tile guru, ain't that right jeff?

   but here are few reasons I would put the tile down first then the cabs.

   You can change the cabs later and not have to follow the same footprint of the old, or replace the floor.  Unlikely, but possible

   It makes installing that dishwasher a heck of a lot easier.

   you probably eliminate a whole serious of cuts around the edges of the cab's

   Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.

1. 
   JeffBuck | Jun 08, 2003 08:19am | #7

   Yup!

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

2. 
   andybuildz | Jun 08, 2003 05:40pm | #8

   I've done a trillion miles O' tile in every denomination.

   I totally disagree about CBU's not adding to the structual integrity of the floor.

   "Wonderboard" has serious structual qualities. HArdieback not so much and Ditra none at all IMHO yet a pleasure to work with in spite of the cost.

   When you thinset "Wonderboard to the extisting 3/4" subfloor (screwed in, but not to the joists), then thinset the tile down you have a total concrete surface that is by far more structually sound then anything other than a mud job.

   The "right" job is to totally tile the entire floor before installing the cabs otherwise what can happen is....when water gets on the floor it will creep under the tile to the plywood and.....kinda unlikely and extreme in thought but it can happen so......its yer call. I mean is it worth the few extra bucks not to? Do it once and do it right.

   Be well

             Namaste

                          andy

    

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 6/8/2003 10:41:43 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

1. 
   deadmanmike | Jun 08, 2003 07:32pm | #9

   When you thinset "Wonderboard to the extisting 3/4" subfloor (screwed in, but not to the joists), then thinset the tile down...

   Thinset the wonderboard to the subfloor or typo? I'm gonna be tackling the same project this winter myself. Most fun's gonna be getting up the old layers....

   Mike

4. 
   steve | Jun 08, 2003 01:43am | #4

   backer board and ceramic tile first then cabinets, no other way

   makes for the best job, tile guy will thank you, and the cabinet guy will scribe cabinets to the floor anyway

5. 
   DaveHeinlein | Jun 08, 2003 02:38am | #5

   It depends on who gets there first- me or the tile guy. It really is better to tile the floor first in case the cabinets ever get changed down the line, but if, like mentioned already, there are borders which must follow the cabinet line, then at least the base cabinet frames need to be installed.

1. 
   ladogboy | Jun 08, 2003 05:04am | #6

   Thanks, all. I'm going to go ahead and tile everywhere then set the cabinets on top. It certainly will help with the dishwasher. And the 1/4" cement board will save a few dollars.

   I appreciate the input.

   Andy

1. 
   chiefclancy | Jun 08, 2003 07:48pm | #10

   TCA spec calls for a minimum floor thickness of 1 1/8" before the tile. Since you've already got 3/4" ply down, I would use 1/2" CBU rather than 1/4". I realize it's unlikely that 1/8" will make or break an installation, but if you're going to all this trouble, why not at least meet if not exceed spec, given the opportunity? The additional cost will not seem like much if the installation ultimately fails. Also, many mfg's will not honor warrantees if the installation isn't done to TCA spec.

   I also disagree that CBU's don't add structural value to a floor system; if they didn't, why use them at all?

1. 
   ladogboy | Jun 08, 2003 08:38pm | #11

   I agree that the CBU does give additional strength, but most importantly it isolates the subfloor from the tile. Out here in earthquake country, anything that decouples the subfloor from the finish floor helps to reduce the cracking we get with every significant tremblor. (We use lots of metal and double every trimmer for the same reason - headers love to fall out and down in earthquakes.)

   There's a new German product from Schluetter Systems that I've seen but haven't tried yet. It's a plastic role that acts as a tile backer and helps to isolate movement transmitted through the subfloor. Looks good, but I don't know if it works.

1. 
   andybuildz | Jun 08, 2003 09:35pm | #12

   andy

        Not to get confusing  here from one andy to anothersssssssss....I'm andy C..the one people often love yet get pissed off at....lol.

   Ditra is the product yer jawin' about and I love it. I think in quake country it'd be awesome especially.

   No doubt that WONDERBOARD does enhance structural values thinset to a subfloor and screwed in. Thats certainly the route to go IMHO but........if you don't need to enhance the structure...Ditra totally rocks. HArdiback is easy to use and  all the CBU's add to the structural ingrity.

   Be whatever

                      Namasate

                                     andy 

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

2. 
   ladogboy | Jun 08, 2003 11:17pm | #13

   So, you're the Andy that people "often love but get pissed off at?" Doesn't that describe most of us?

   I haven't seen the Ditra installed, but I saw it at the Las Vegas show and was very impressed. I'm always looking for new, improved materials and methods.

   Thanks,

   The Andy That People Occasionally Love But Rarely Get Pissed Off At

3. 
   andybuildz | Jun 08, 2003 11:53pm | #14

   andy

         I've used it and like it.

   I think its way overpriced for what it is but in the long haul is easier to work with then CBU's. I also think its got qualitites that surpass CBU's but who knows? Only time will tell.....maybe beyond my time on this rock. The concept seems right.

    Oh, and by the way,,,,,if peeps only. "occasionally" get pissed off at ou then you must know CAG (Neil 4......lol)

   Be well

                  NAmaste

                           andy

    

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 6/8/2003 4:56:20 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

6. 
   JeffBuck | Jun 09, 2003 02:28am | #15

   Ok...amateur hour is over...

   Read your product spec sheets....read your warrenties....re-read your TCA book...

   1 1/8th min floor thickness is for the sub floor......

   a subfloor doesn't include the CBU.

   and CBU's aren't structural.

   Do what ya want.....not my floor...not my warrenty....

   but let's stop arguing with the professionals, huh?

   Jeff

   Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

1. 
   chiefclancy | Jun 09, 2003 03:00am | #16

   I don't know which TCA handbook you're reading, but mine says minimum subfloor thickness is 19/32", plus 1/2" for CBU. Either way, however you get there, they want 1 1/8" under the tile. However if Hardie ok's using their 1/4" board over 3/4" ply, then I guess that's all you need.

1. 
   JeffBuck | Jun 09, 2003 03:28am | #17

   I have a Hardi product spec sheet on my desk at the moment...

   "HardiBacker ceramic tile backerboard does not add structural strenght to a subfloor, and can only perform as well as the subfloor itself.(refer to page A-12 for Specific Warrenty Information)"

   Do what ya wanna do......not my floor.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

1. 
   Qtrmeg | Jun 10, 2003 02:08am | #18

   Ahh, an idiot food fight, I love this place.

   Don't anyone bother to ask about the joist size/span and "tile" type, facts just get in the way here. Let the fur fly. ;-)

   Ought to put you experts in a blender, set for whip, and see if a straight answer pours out of it.