I’m a carpenter/small contractor interested in getting a CAD program for my Windows PC. I’d like to be able to do house plans, cabinet and woodworking plans/layouts, and some 3D modeling. I don’t want anything too complex or pricey. Any recommendations from CAD using contractors?
Fuzzy – Seattle
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Replies
LOL
You probably want it to be easy to learn too, right?
To do all that and not be "too pricey" you are probably looking for Turbocad light or ACADlite. Vectorworks is a good value but still pricey, Softplan is fantastic but lacks basic tools for plain jane drawing, it's an architectural package.
Be more specific about budget.
I think the price you pay up front is one of the least of your concerns. What you invest in time learning is the greatere investment. To that end, Chief Architect or Softplan are what you wabt for house design.
use the search button for previous discussions under 'design', 'drawing', and 'CAD'
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin
I am seriously considering purchasing Softplan. I currently use a cheapo called 3D home architect. Ive done Softplan's demo and thought it was great but was left with some doubt as to it being easy to produce something on it. I get the impression from you that it is easy. Am I right? The other option I'm considering is Vectorworks. Have you used it and if so, is it as easy as Softplan. What about getting full sized drawings printed? What do you consider plain jane drawing? Any info/time you can spare I would surely appreciate. I liked your stairs and the 3D kitchen.
Ian
I don't use Vectorworks but I work with a few interior designers who do and they produce some good detail drawings. You might check the old postings here also. I've heard it is a little harder to work with.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3dfd3ff500362a1c271a401e1d2905df/Catalog/1131?
If you are already handy with broderbund's screen and commands, chief Architect is the big brother pro version. It does easy modeling and is easy to lewarn but is more limited than SoftPlan in what you can do or customize and I think it needs add on programs. Mike Smith uses it.
Easy is as easy does, I guess. There are tricks to out thinking any program so you need to understand the basics of how it works first. SP was designed to work the way builders do instead of the way programers do. Instead of thinking "layers" you think "floorplan", "roof", "framing", "florsystem", "interior design", etc.
I consider it easy because I was making basic drawings in a couple sessions and within three weeks, had drawn and sold a 36K kitchen because of it. I did an overnight set of 3D drawings and made a presentation that would have taken at least three days to draw by hand - The clients were leaving the next morning so the speed was paramount.
For full-sized prints, it will send to plotter or printer, whatever you have. You can print to PDF, if you have that loaded. I have the floppy for the driver that my a local print shop uses, so if I ever need full size prints made, I can prepare a set of files on disc and carry it in or e-mail to him.
What I meant by plain jane drawing was just plain old drawing like we used to do on paper - just lines and circles - The lines in a SPD are not just lines, they are walls or whatever they represent. I can draw lines too that are just lines but I din't have al the tools like variious snaps and vertices intersects that a full cad does, no bezier curves to draw a custom cornice, etc. Very difficult to creat a five sided cabinet, but doable.
One valuable thing is the 3D presentations from Softview. I can show people what they would be getting since most can't read plans for squat. And they pay based on the drawing. I don't print them scale plans until the money is mine. That way, my copywrited work isn't stolen and misapplied. Most decent builders could build from a plan with little dimension shown like in some plan books, unless it is complex. I can print a floorplan at a customized scale and label it "Not for construction" as a preliminary print to let them sample it or to preview with their builder.
These attachments show what I'm working on tonight, photo of existing first then with addition of dining room behind bay, portico entry, and west bedroom.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
great post piff!
Thank you sir!
Which Cad do you use in engineering? I'm supposing ACAD.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Back when I was "on the boards", I used IDEAS 4.0 as my pre and post processor to design a structure and Nastran to load it and determine the stresses and/or temperatures.
"f you are already handy with broderbund's screen and commands, chief Architect is the big brother pro version. It does easy modeling and is easy to lewarn but is more limited than SoftPlan in what you can do or customize and I think it needs add on programs. Mike Smith uses it."
That may or may not be true. Starting with 3D Architect version 5 Broderbund went with a different source code. It is not longer file compatabile with Chief Architect, but I dont' know about how the keyboard commands and the look and feel of the program might be different.
CA is now offering a Home Edition 5.0 for $500, with a $50 rebate and some other goodys for buyers of 3D Arch.
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/home_edition/home_edition.htm
The feature list looks very complete so I have not compared it to the full blown version, but it looks very feature rich.
I was responding with a repeat of what others who use it have written.
I have 3D version 2 and a client picked uyp version4. Mine saves as *.PL* files, his as *.BL* files. I can't open his. It's just as well, He's trying to "help" too much..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Chief saves as ***.pl files
here's the home page for the Chief site.... you can download a demo from there
http://www.chiefarch.com/
I'm not up on the compatibility of 3D & Chief.. I've never seen 3D Home Arch. except on the shelves..
Chief 8.0 is a full package, you don't need any add-ons.... it will do 3D, CAD, walk-thrus, rendering, terrain, import & export (.dwg)
it's pretty much whatever you want it to be...
as i've said before, Vectorworks would be my choice if we were designing as a team.. but for single work-stations ... or multiple signle work-stations... Chief will do anything you want it to..
support is another consideration.... Chief has a great 4 CD set of instructionals for 8.0... classroom training is available at locations around the country... I've been to Maine a couple of times for training with Steve Blake of Berryvale Software...
http://www.berryvalesoftware.com/
as piffen says.. and others who use other CAD... a lot depends on circumstances... support, cost, hardware, do you have professional friends who use the same thing ?
are you going to use it as a marketing tool? Chief & Softplan are great at that..
mostly , we get great working drawings fast....
etc.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Chief 8.0 is a full package, you don't need any add-ons.... it will do 3D, CAD, walk-thrus, rendering, terrain, import & export (.dwg)"
Maybe technically it is, but that depends on what you mean by "Chief 8.0". They sell two versions. The "Base Version" which does not include a lot of those features. And they sell Full Version. Then they sell the "addon" or upgrade package to go from the base to the full version.
(BTW, they sell the 2 other versions, but that is more multi-user licensing rather than features).
you're right, but i have three licences and all are "FULL" so i forgot that.. every upgrade i just order the top, so i don't have to fool around when the next upgrade comes out...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
piffin
much thanks for your input. I have built from a set of dwgs done on Chief Arc. and I thought they were pretty good. It was a tricky place too. The lack of detail I attribute to the designer. It seems that a Cad, any Cad really, is as much a sales tool as anything. I recently used my computer for the first time to design with the customers present, moving windows around and so forth. They were impressed i think. I got the job, we poured the foundation today. So I will continue my research and maybe spring for Softplan in 2003. With luck it will pay for itself over a couple of jobs or years. I have also heard Vector is harder to learn but having framed a house a few years ago from a set by Vector I would say the dwgs were nicer than the Chief ones. Both were done by pros. regards and thanks again
ian
>you are probably looking for Turbocad light or ACADlite.
I used TurboCad for years, even beta tested for versions 6 and 7. They don't fix the bugs, they just add more buggy features. Finally I bit the bullet, got real, and invested in AutoCad LT 2001. The un-learning and re-learning was a pain, but it's a vastly superior user interface, and a much more stable program.
-- J.S.
fuzzy
I have been a MiniCad/VectorWorks user for years and can't say enough about it - and this is not to mention the excellent tech support (It's free for 18 months other than your dime and even then they don't seem to cut you off. I use my free long distance cellphone to call tech support hehehe)
From 2D drafting to full blown rendered 3D models - it's gorgeous.
Draw backs included. No software is EVER complete.
If price is a concern then VWs may be out for you - I think the entry level (now) is around $800
Beware too - the ol' 'you get what you pay for routine'! Something I am selling customers everyday. What are my rates and mark ups? - it doesn't matter - you get what you pay for.
That sounds like a pretty good price, does it include the 3D and rendering modules too? I thought the newest version was more like eleven hundred.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
VectorWorks (.) is the entry level. It does include all the 3D tools. Next is VWArchitect which is in the $1250 range I believe. The stock versions have rendering capabilities but the ol' song and dance is - 'if you want more....' then more $$$. Rendering engines can get real pricey, but Nemetschek (Current vendor of VW) offers their own rendering engine - RenderWorks - around $250. The more modules you buy the better deal they make. I'll be upgrading to VWArchitect 10 very shortly. Have renderworks but never took the time to learn it.
A quick question....I visited their site, but I'm unclear (I'm sure I'm missing something obvious!) ....what do you get with the Architect level that you don't get with the basic level? And is that $1250 additional?? (or, does the $1250 include the base level stuff?)Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
The Architect variety imcludes many "Architect" specific tools and an expanded library of items. The libraries include all Anderson and Marvin windows, cabinets, furniture, plumbing fixtures, electrical and on and on and on - also symbols specific to architectural plans (section markers, elevation markers, notations.
The $1250 is for VectorWorks - Architect, so you would have the basic VectorWorks engine with Architect on top of it.
I'm a builder not an architect. The plans I draw are rudimentary compared to 'professionally' drawn plans. Many professional architects have choosen VWA as their drawing software.
As I said in an earlier post, it does have it's short comings. Visit their forum and read up on the complaints, the stair tool and dynamic sections come first to mind.
http://www.nemetschek.net/cgi/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi
Piffin,
Have you ever tried Autocad, just curious, I know its expensive as all hell.
I've got an educational version that I loaded and started a book tutorial. It's not an easy program. My version expired after thirty days.
Amazingly enough, even after re-formatting my drive from a system crash, there was enough of a "brand" left smoldering to stop me from reloading it and openning it up again.
I do a little with Intellicad, which is an ACAD clone, using similar tools and commands and screen.
For the most part, it is too confusing to keep jumping back and forth between different programs when you aren't fluent in both..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I wonder where fuzzy went after starting this good thread. Are you still lost in the land of "Advanced Search"?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
I'm still here. Advanced Search was an excellent tip. There have been a lot of good past discussions on the CAD topic and I appreciate everyone's current responses too. Thanks for the tip and your current suggestions. I'm finding that CAD is a lot more complicated than I suspected. But I haven't given up on finding a software that can draw, do 3D, and doesn't require a PhD to learn it. Anyway, this was my first foray into the Breaktime Forum and it's really cool! Be talkin' to ya.
-Fuzzy
I was just wondering because we use it at school, its a great program and you can do a lot with it but because you can do alot it takes alota learning and money. For 3-d modeling I like 3D studio max the best but again expensive and a lot to learn.
BTW, I'm still laughing - sorry - about your story of the belt sander landing on your 'belt'. I've got this vision of you lying wounded, and trying to defend yourself against this angry belt sander on the rampage with a little flowered girlie hammer, HeeHeeHe.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
What's your take on IntelliCAD so far?
It's free, and i like it enough to wish I could spend more time learning it - which means, of course, spending less time here.
It is pure cad without architectural drivers or libraries. I can use it to create blocks which I use for symbols in Softplan. I use it more for openning DWG files and converting them to DXF files to import in SP.
SP can create 3D objects by applying a 2D DXF to a 3D object so another plain CAD program is needed or I can import/download DXFs online to apply.
I haven't done anything complicated with it, but it works for me..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Is it (Intellicad) still being developed? At one point (when I had it on board), it was sold or orphaned (Autocad politics)....the word was there wouldn't be any further development on it. Now I think they're selling some versions, but I'm not sure ifthat means new versions or not. I know one of the issues was in 3d models going back and forth between programs....I certainly saw that in tests I did (going back and forth between Icad, Acad and Turbocad on the same machine)....some 3d objects would read perfectly in Acad and Tcad, but big chunks would be missing in Icad. Great for 2d though.
Turbocad is underated, (especially by John Sprung!).....Acad is not exactly bug free (check their user groups for pissed off users). I teach Acad (20 seat CAD lab), and 2002 is pretty stable, but we still have lots of crashes and glitches that can only be solved by exiting and restarting, and the architectural drafting program here has the same problems (and that is with the program loaded individually on each machine, not mirrored, which was a nightmare). cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
IntelliCAD is still being developed; a new version (3.3) was recently released. InteliCAD seemed to be in limbo for awhile when Visio was bought by Microsoft but now things seem to be on the move. ArchT, an architectural desktop, has been rereleased for it. I've been running IntelliCAD with Millenium and now XP ......... so far so good. It can't read or do ACIS solid modeling. An agreement was recently signed with Spatial Technologies for use of the ACIS kernel so hopefully solid modeling will appear in the near future. Free service and support is limited (2 months for my version) depending on the vendor. Paid contracts for service and support are available and there are the user groups. File compatibility with AutoCAD is claimed up to and including ACAD 2000. I've opened some old 2D R14 files in IntelliCAD with no problem. I think I'm going to stick with IntelliCAD. If you've used AutoCAD, the transition is pretty painless- the commands are for the most part the same. I'm going to spring for ArchT in the next few months and hope that and IntelliCAD will provide a workable solution for me. Autodesk's Architectural Desktop 3 is $3995 (US)- nice program but the price of admitance is pretty steep.
I don't mean to contrdict John, but rather to add my opinion to the mix...... I've used TurboCAD for several years, creating furniture and deck plans and a couple kitchen layouts. Recently, I upgraded to the 3D version to produce 3D drawings. I've found the program to be reasonably easy to use and have been very happy with the results.
I use 3D Home Architect as well, and have a love/hate relationship with it. The things it does, it does pretty well and QUICKLY. You can build an entire floor in 15 minutes and use the camera feaure to "stand" at any point to see how the rooms will look. But, the things it won't do (like select and move several items at once, or move things a precise amount, or align objects, or.......) drive me crazy.
At the same time, I have to admit that I have little other CAD experience. I have never used any other PC-based CAD. I fiddle with ACAD and Pro-E at work, but have never had any formal training. I will say that simply firing up AutoCAD and trying to figure it out on the fly was very difficult for me. TurboCAD was much easier to get started with, even when I was too stubborn to read the manual.
It's probably not even fair to compare ACAD and TCAD - two different animals, in two different leagues, with vastly different price tags.
In my opinion.... If a person wants to spend a few hundred dollars, wants a program that they can be productive with quickly, and wants a program they can spend a couple hours on every once in a while to produce a drawing, TurboCAD is worth considering.
TurboCAD 8.0 Pro offers 3D modelling, with rendering, for about $350. That is a pretty amazing value, IMHO. If you want it even cheaper, I think you can buy an old version for $40 or so and upgrade to the latest version for something like $199.
Finally, there are websites that do reviews of CAD packages. (TurboCAD usually does pretty well, with comments like "best bang for the buck") Search on "CAD review", or some variation on that, and you should turn up some good info.
I wouldn't begin to claim that TCAD is better than what others are recommending here, only that I've been happy and productive with it and that I was very pleased with it's low cost and easy learning curve.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
One thing I've noticed in reading about CAD programs for the past three years is that almost all of them have a few dis-satisfied users and aggravating bugs. Any discussion like this tends to bring out the John Sprungs to disclaim Turbocad for its bugs or the Adrians who point out that ACAD doesn't deserve the reputaion that it has bought.
In all this time, I have only heard or read of one person who dissed Softplan. He was selling his copy because he claimed that it was too hard to use. from my experience, I would suppose that this might have been more on his part than that of the software. SP has a thirty day full refund gaurantee for anyone in this spot but he let things ride a little too long. I'd even be willing to bet that, had he contacted SP directly, they might still have refunded his bucks.
The other one high in user satisfaction is Chief Architect, by my informal subjective memory. Advocates seem to claim it to be even easier to learn than SP. I have heard of folks moving from CA to SP to get greater power and options but I have never heard of an SP user moving from SP to CA.
Find an automobile with that kind of customer satisfaction rating, and I'll buy it in a minute..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
hmmmm.... bear in mind, I'm not dissing Autocad; it's quite good, and it does the job for me. Basically, I post mostly to balance the folks that believe Acad is the only real program out there, or that it is some kind of holy grail, or that Turbocad or some of the other programs are completely inferior (which I don't believe to be true, even though my horse is now hitched to the Autocad wagon). It's kinda like in the political threads; I'm pretty much the only one here that has a completely balanced and fully informed point of view; with that comes a responsibility. Hee hee.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
I wish I had known of this forum when I started school (though it did occupy more than a little 'puter lab time ;o) ). My horse was hitched for me........ most schools teach AutoCAD and many if not most architecture/engineering firms including the two I worked for use some form of AutoCAD and it seemed like the Holy Grail. That isn't the case but it's too late to teach this old dog some new tricks. I hope IntelliCAD sees continued development (it apparently is popular in other parts of the world) and becomes the Linux of the CAD world.
Pretty much ALL schools teach Autocad....so a lot of small/medium industry uses it, because....there's lots of people who know how to use it. Autodesk (and Autodesk/Microsoft) politics are on the smelly side, but there ya go. If Intellicad gets the ACIS thing licked as you said, then good luck to them.
JJShaw; strong words on Turbocad.....what's your experience with it? And if it's version 6 or before, it's apples and oranges. For single seat users, I'm not aware of anything I can do with Acad that I can't with Tcad. Some things I can do much faster with one, some things with the other. They both work.
Another program that doesn't get talked about that much is Bentley's Microstation....3d modelling, paramteric....I don't know much about it, or what it costs, but architectural is one of their applications. I have a colleague in GIS who loves it....he teaches that and Autocad, he figures Microstation is about a third fewer keystrokes.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
I didn't intend to sound like a TCAD commercial. Maybe I went overboard. I use it. I like it. I'm happy with what I paid for it.
I can't compare it with any other sub-$500 package because I haven't used them.
I can only compare it to ACAD in terms of a guy standing at the very beginning of the learning curve and looking up. I was able to produce results much quicker with TCAD than with ACAD. To someone who is serious about CAD, that probably doesn't mean much. For a casual user, it might.
I've used version 4.0 for several years. I design and make furniture, and found TCAD an easy way to test proportions and style without building mock-ups. It was also nice to have measured scale drawings when I went into the shop. Besides the furniture, I used TCAD to design my deck (2-level, 900 sq ft, dogleg stairway), and to layout a couple of kitchen remodels. An arch. program would have been easier for the kitchen work, but I was very happy with TCAD for everything else.
This year, I upgraded to version 8.0 professional. My primary motivation for upgrading was the need to produce a 3D model of a timberframe. The angles in a timberframe roof can be quite complex. I'm hoping to develop piece-part drawings of every timber in the frame.
So, I'm no professional, and not even a hard-core novice. But, my usage probably mirrors some of those who come here wanting to upgrade from pencil and paper to CAD for the occasional drawing.
Everyone's needs and resources are unique. I looked over the Softplan website this afternoon and was thoroughly impressed. If I only did architectural drawings, and did enough of them to justify the expense, this seems like a great product. I can see how SP could pay for itself if you were a contractor.
But for an average guy, on a tight budget, producing a variety of drawings, TurboCAD deserves consideration.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I agree....I wasn't questioning any positive comments, I was questioning a post where you seemed to be saying 'it's not in the same class as Acad'. And unless you have several people working on the same drawing from different stations, really, I can't think of much if anything you can do in Acad that you can't do in Tcad. They're different, but I like them both; I agree Tcad is more intuitive (I only started wth Acad after knowing something about CAD in general, so I can only judge what Acad seems like to a novice by watching my students). Factor in the price, and Tcad is definitely worth looking at, on it's own terms.
As an aside, it's the end of term, and I've spent part of the last couple of days evaluating the work of my guys; they get four hours a week of formal instruction in Autocad (from me), and they have open access to the lab. many of these guys started the semester with no experience of computers at all (lots of my people are older guys retraining)....concurrently, they did a course in basic computers, one in Acad, and one in Drafting & Interpeting Technical Drawings (pencil and paper). Challenging. They're doing great; one, who was extremely frustrated at the beginning, told me a couple of days ago that he now spends hours on the box at night for fun, working with CAD....solving all kinds of problems. Another, also extremely frustrated at the beginning, handed in a project that is hard to find any fault with whatsoever. At this point on the curve, we start learning together, cause they're finding ways to do things I didn't know about. I have no doubt in one more semester they'll all be flying.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
..to Adrian, Piff, et al, check out Revit.... recently purchased by Auto desk...WOW, what a program!
If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..
I wasn't questioning any positive comments, I was questioning a post where you seemed to be saying 'it's not in the same class as Acad'.
I see. Obviously, I have little direct comparison between the two. I work around mechanical designers. They all use either Pro-E or Autocad. That, combined with the price difference, lead me to infer that Autocad was more of a "professional" tool.
I don't know the details of how ACAD and TCAD compare, and I shouldn't have made the statement about "being in the same class".
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
hey piffin you seem to be everywhere these days. :-) good to see you again. :-) I will chime in just a little here. I have been a SoftPLan user since v9 we now are on v11 before that autocad with some architectural overlay don't remember at the moment too many years ago. First the reason the SPLASH group is open only for SoftPlan owners is because when it was open publicly, toublemakers would come in and ruin what SPLASH is all about, learning SoftPLan. SPLASH is not there to sell SoftPlan it is there to learn SP without outside interference. I also know the CA forum has had many problems with troublemakers in the past.
That said I have used CA before and various autocad programs and SoftPlan wins hands down. Complex roofs are a breeze and very easy editing. Believe me I would switch in a second if if I found something better my only loyalty to SoftPlan is it is the best program out there for residential and light commercial. I am designing a very complex restaurant right now on SoftPlan and my engineers are very impressed with the program even though they all use autocad. As a matter of fact I had to I finally kick my structural engineer out of the office he was having way too much fun playing with Softplan and I could not get any work done. I'm afraid he now wants to be a architect designer because of SoftPlan. ha ha ha
I would also recommend turbocad for those of you that don't need the full power of SOFTPLAN and it is cheaper.
One last thing, I tried the laptop for presentation to clients they always seem to be more comfortable with paper even the computer nerds. Then again it is hard to show a 70,000 sg ft home on a 15" laptop screen. ha ha ha
Lee J. Buividas
I can't vouch for using Microstation for homebuilding, but when I was in boatbuilding it was very valuable to us. We were actually at a point where we absorbed a flock of engineers from a company that went under; they were AutoCad trained, we on Microstation. Of course, being the new kids on the block, everything they said or did was right, and we ended up going to AutoCad for everyone. What a royal pain in the a__.
All of this convoluted, memory-intensive stuff, all aimed, it seemed, at doing what Microstation already did with elegance, and no lock-ups. The capabilities for layering and using reference files are powerful and refined. In the end, we had a AC vs. MS showdown to get us all on the same page. Microstation won handily, and after a lot of grumbling, all of the AC users came around and were really satisfied with the switch.
Again, I don't know what, if anything, Intergraph has loaded into Microstation now that is geared toward homebuilding. And you do have to learn a different vocabulary and way of doing things. But get past that, and you'll love it.
Interesting....I'd love to see it. Not a chance in hell I'd get it past the Autocad lock on the schools, but I would definitely like to try it.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
You mentioned Autodesk's smelly politics ............I'm curious, tell me more.
If I told ya, I'd have to kill ya and all that....and I'm not up to killing you today. Suffice it to say, it has a lock on the schools.....Autodesk's relationship with Microsoft helps, too.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
;)
Thanks for not leaving blood on the keyboard just before Christmass!.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Like to keep the blood I've got, the hospitals got enough of it last year, lol. You and Adrian have a Merry Christmas!!! Heard Rockland was going to get a big orange box store ......... if they're like any of the ones I've been in, Viking and EBS won't have too much to worry about.
I buy from Viking - great service!
Rankins good too, especially old Frank
EBS is too much like HD for my money but they do make a few delivery runs out here..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'll go off on AutoDesk a bit. They own the market for the same reason Microsoft is so big: people think they need to buy the industry leader. (Remember DrDos?) Before long they create a situation where it IS best to go that way, because the better programs, with fewer sales, have to close shop, leaving other wise happy customers with a dead end product. AutoDesk (publisher of AutoCAD) bought at least one great program, Generic Cad, seemingly just to kill off some competition.
Generic cad was a wonderful program. You could draw with 1/2 the keyboard and mouse clicks that AC requires, it was wonderfully stable and it was cheap. The large, loyal user base continues to resist AC. Many have moved to Visual Cadd, a descendant of Generic. Visual Cadd is great to work with, and is still in development, but is only 2d and has at least one notorious bug that survives each new version. (Undo will erase whatever was previously selected)
I still recommend Visual Cadd for 2d, I have some experience with others, including AutoCAD, and Visual wins by a huge margin for easy operation. I still use it to tune up drawings done in 3d programs like SoftPlan or Cadsoft Build. When you know about the undo bug you can work around it. Seems pathetic to say that until you look at the huge mass of bugs that follows AutoCAD through the years.
You can find info on Visual Cadd @ http://www.tritools.com/
You can work through the Visual Tutorial and be drawing proficiently in a few hours as compared to months with AutoCAD.
I'll agree that for a basic CAD 2D program it is good.
I used to use Generic CAD for awhile but wanted something more which is why I went to SP.
I happened to be fiddling around at the local library the other day and discovered that someone had loaded Visual Cad so I played with it and found that I could make use of most tools almost immediately ( I already understand the basics tho so this probably wopuldn't apply to a newbie) It was quite a simple interface, easy to get a handle on. It does capture the flavor of the old GCAD6. Autodesk bought the rights to it only to pull it off the market and keep it from distribution, out of competition..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Zero negative comments IS impressive, especially given the number/diversity of the contributors here and their eagerness to share their experiences. If someone here had a bad experience with SP, I'm SURE we'd hear about it.
I'd advise any potential CAD buyer to be careful to compare apples to apples though. TurboCAD is not in the same class as CA/AC/SP, and really shouldn't be compared to them.
If you require, and can afford, one of the big boys of CAD, you'd be wasting your time looking at TurboCAD. Conversely, if you're just looking to turn out an occasional drawing and/or you're on a budget, the sterling reputation of Softplan may not justify the 5-7x cost difference.
I guess I'm just saying that I haven't heard one bad comment about the 2002 911 Carerra's either, but that doesn't mean that a new Porsche is the right car for everyone. (Sure like to have one though <g>)
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Piffin:
I actually _have_ heard of people who have preferred CA over SP. But I'm hoping to hear a little more about WHAT you think is more powerful in SP. I currently use CA (8.0) and ArchiCAD. However, I would switch in an instant if I thought SP could produce designs/drawings faster or better. But I don't have any good sense of what features it has, exactly, that makes this a better choice than CA, say.
I have called Softplan sales at least twice, without any followup from them. They've been very nice, but the "demo" is a canned presentation. I've asked for names of some local users so I could see the program in action, but they haven't been able to provide any. They did spend some time with me demonstrating the program over the web, which was pretty neat, but I still would like to see a little more hands-on demo. I'm not willing to cough up a few grand for the privilege of just trying the program out. This is very frustrating to not get any hard information without shelling out a bundle.
The SPLASH users group has a good reputation, but unless you have the program, you can't access it. There is no guest visiting that I can find. This is the only CAD program that I know of that keeps its users' discussions behind closed doors.
I was surprised to learn during the short web demo that SP doesn't have a terrain modeler. How do you get this kind of program vs. program feature information?
Richard
Richard,
Wow! A lot of good points to respond to;
>"...people who have preferred CA over SP"
Not exactly what I said but close. Those who like simplicity and ease of learning with speed to use choose Chief first. Their ads brag about designers taking the laptop to design/model right in front of the client. I wouldn't tryt that with my SP except for a demonstration or the simplest of homes. I almost bought it but when I sat down at a JLC show to preview both, it was clear that SP was far better. That was three years ago or so and both have made great strides since then. The detail in the SP line drawings and 3Ds was much more impressive, automatically doing things that Chief couldn't seem to put out without great effort.
>"They did spend some time with me demonstrating the program..."
It would be great if you could get to a show ( you generally find discount pricing at the shows too) or find someone close. Where are you? I'll check and see if there is a guest viewing available at SPLASH for you. Keep in mind that it is a private club and not sponsored by Softplan. SP doesn't need an online BB or forum of it's own because you can call 9-5 x 5days and get a real helpfull tech person right off and that keeps them in direct touch with users.
I noticed too that the sales team is very understated. They let the program sell itself, which is exactly what it did for me. I don't know if you've ever been exposed to the cadsoft or Eagle. They werre extremely aggressive in their marketing which put me off. The program looked promising but I've heard multiple complaints about them and the program in the last several years.
SP is not 100% perfect and it can't read my mind yet, but those who buy Soft-talk are saying they save twenty or thirty percent of their time to design.
>"...WHAT you think is more powerful in SP..."
Let me describe a couple things I can do. I hear that Chief can do much better than it used to so I won't demean them at all but let someone else respond whether they can do the same, or similar
When I place an openning, such as a window, with two clicks and entering some digits or clicking choices, I can change the style or size, set rough openning size if the default doesn't suit me, set the elevation precisly, add shutters ( several stiles) size those shutters, add and size grills, edit how it displays on plan, what type and size header, casing, sill, etc.
When I draw a wall, it is automatically making a list of all the plates and studs, nails, sheathing, insulation, drywall, paint, siding, etc needed to buiold that wall and in the framing level, it is preparing a frame drawing which I can also edit to show exactly how to frame the wall, supposing that I was drawing it up for a DIY who didn't know structural corner from deadwood or which wall the frame first.
It's not too hard to creat new walls with new materials or create custom windows. There is a standard library of walls but for instance, since I do a lot of remodeling on old homes, I have a "cottage wall" that is cedar shingles over 7/8" sheathing pine board with tarpaper in between, 3-7/8" studs, 3/8" lathe, 3/8" Plaster, and paint. It saves having discrepancies in dimensioning and displays accurately. for half basements, you create a wall that is, say, 12" ice blocks with concrete fill, adding a stucco coat to the outside, for the first five feet, and a kneewall of what ever kind you want above that and place a footer below it. Then you just draw. If you set up the wall right, you can edit the height of it and the section drawing will display accurately.
I can choose whether to dimension to center, edge of stud, or outside surface of wall.
Once I create and edit the roof, I can auto frame it or place rafters individually or a combination. I can set heel heights drop from top of wall to bottom of fascia, add gutter, select soffit or no, plumb cut or not, add beams and size them.
I gotta quit for a while now.
Here's the SPLASH link. See if you can get in as a guest, to read only. I've emailed the webmaster to find out and am waiting answer. My PC will automatically log me in so I don't know how far I go before it will stop you...
http://www.softplansplash.org/
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin:
Thanks for the thoughtful responses!
>"Those who like simplicity and ease of learning with speed to use choose Chief first. Their ads brag about designers taking the laptop to design/model right in front of the client. I wouldn't tryt that with my SP except for a demonstration or the simplest of homes. "
Well, this is definitely true for Chief. I do feel comfortable sitting with clients and designing in front of them. In fact, I was at a prospective client's home this a.m. and showing them with my laptop how I work with clients and will probably end up with $20-40K in design fees as a result. I can't work with ArchiCAD this way, even though I've been using it longer and it's much more powerful overall.
>"It would be great if you could get to a show ( you generally find discount pricing at the shows too) or find someone close. Where are you? "
San Francisco Bay Area. (mid-Peninsula.) You can't throw a rock around here without hitting another architect, so I was surprised that SP didn't have more users nearby. I checked again on SPLASH, and couldn't find any way to get guest access. They seemed to have an industry-type membership by request but the link just went back to the plain old standard registration.
>"Let me describe a couple things I can do. I hear that Chief can do much better than it used to so I won't demean them at all but let someone else respond whether they can do the same, or similar"
Almost all of the things you describe can be done in the latest version of Chief, except for the more complete sections. (i.e. with all of the insulation, etc. already in place.) You just get an "outline" section in Chief, which is reasonably accurate and not too difficult to fill in. However, I'm definitely intrigued by the Soft-Talk feature. I sure would love to see someone demonstrating this!
Richard
I haven't seen the Soft talk myself but somneday might try it.
I'm interested in whether you do things like multiple wall heights and variable pitched roofs in fron of the client. Those kind of things need some tweaking and figureing - or does CA somehow heal everything together, and if it does, can you over-ride the choices it makes to keep fascias lined up?
I know there are several SP users and a local users group out your way. If you would like to email me separately through this site with text of a letter from you explaining your need to meet to consider SP in a demo, I would be glad to copy and post it in Splash for you. Include you email in the text.
I got a reply from the webmaster that they decided to remove the guest feature because of some kind of misuse of the site by guests..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin:
>"I'm interested in whether you do things like multiple wall heights and variable pitched roofs in fron of the client. Those kind of things need some tweaking and figureing - or does CA somehow heal everything together, and if it does, can you over-ride the choices it makes to keep fascias lined up?"
You can do all of the above, no problem, but often it does take a little tweaking. I usually stick to moving around walls, fixtures, cabinets, and the like, and do the exterior roof forms back at the office, and then come back later with the final exterior design based on the floor plan we had agreed on. Partly because I don't want the meetings to go on too long, and partly because I don't want to make it look too easy! <g> Gotta keep a little mystery about the artistic process.
Thanks for your offer of posting to the SPLASH group for me. I'll e-mail you privately about this.
Richard
> It's probably not even fair to compare ACAD and TCAD - two different animals, in two different leagues, with vastly different price tags.
Look around at computer fairs, you can find ACAD LT for $350. Having seen TCAD from the inside, it's scary.
-- J.S.
I only know a bit about the full version of ACAD, which is what I was referring to. Since then, it has been suggested that TCAD and the full ACAD ARE comparable in single-user capability. I don't know and shouldn't have made any comparison. I'll also leave any comparisons between TCAD and ACAD LT to those who know each product well.
I will say that I read some reviews of the two products (ACAD LT and TCAD) before I purchased TCAD, both of which preferred TCAD. That proves little besides that opinions vary.
I've never seen TCAD from the inside, but the view from the outside has been a very satisfying one.
I'm sure you have a valid point. I just haven't had anything but success with TCAD. That's not bad for a product that cost me about $50 (for the 2D version.)
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Having made the switch from Tcad to Acad LT, I can tell you that it's like going from a '65 volkswagen to a BMW. Consider what it takes to draw a line perpendicular to another line and passing through a point:
In Tcad, you have to mouse over to the tool bar and change from line drawing mode to perpendicular mode. Then you click on the line, mouse to the point, and snap to it. If the next thing you want to do is something other than another perpendicular, you have to mouse over to the tool bar and change modes again.
In LT, you stay in the same line drawing mode for point to point lines and perpendiculars. You just snap to the point, mouse over to the line, and when you get close to the place which will make a perpendicular, the upside-down "T" appears near the cursor. Just click, and you're done.
Something similar happens with parallels. In Tcad, IIRC, you had to click on two points on the line, and the order in which you picked them determined which side the parallel would be drawn on. In Acad LT, you click on the line, then click to the side you want the parallel if you're going to a numerical offset, or snap to a point Both require you to go into a parallel mode, but Tcad's only does lines, LT's can make offsets of other objects.
Tcad may have more features, especially 3D, but the fundamentals are cumbersome. The upgrade treadmill runs on a six month cycle for Tcad, which is where they make their real money. LT upgrades every year or two.
-- J.S.
Did you just read that post that was weeks ago....
lol first of all it thankfully it landed above the belt, below the belt and I probably woudnt talk about it. I wouldnt have been so bad but I tried in vein to lift it off my stomach and only really ended up holding it there until it flew off, thank god it wasnt a finish floor under me. And I dont own the pink girly hammer, just saw it in Ace out here, made me scratch my head, funny thing is I was in the same Ace today and the display is still pretty full.
Edited 12/16/2002 11:41:19 PM ET by CAG
Dec 4th, to be exact. Yes, I don't read every thread but that one stays alive so I had to look and see what was up. Good laugh!
If it had landed below the belt, I'd have a different vision (you would too - probably cross-eyed) I've seen what a jumble the cord gets into when caught in a belt sander!.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius