Hi,
We’re primarily doing kitchen and bath remodels and we’re looking into purchasing a cad program to draw plans/elevations. We’ve been looking into chief architect, 20/20 and softplan. What do you guys/gals think of these programs and do you have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Dale
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Replies
kitchens & baths involve a lot of other elements besides cabinets..
i think 20/20 is strong on detailing & ordering cabinets
but it sucks for general remodeling
Chief can do great kitchens & baths... and the cabinets can be as custom as you want to devote the time to
Hey, everyone-
It's sunday afternoon, just opened my computer and want to thank everyone for their responses. I'll try to respond to everyone's questions and comments in this reply, please excuse me if I leave anything out.
I have autocad experience from college but that was almost 15 yrs ago so I'm a bit rusty. My big problems with autocad are getting the program to print correctly, the amount of time it takes me to draw and the lack of formal training.
The reason for wanting to purchase a new program is due to an end of job talk with our last kitchen customer who now would like us to do a master bathroom remodel. During the conversation the customer indicated they loved how the designer's (20/20) program showed them different designs in 3D and they didn't want to do the bathroom remodel without being able to look at different bathroom designs in 3D. We also just met with another old customer who would like us to do a kitchen, two bath and living room remodel showing them different designs in 3d.
After these meetings, I went to Fry's and purchased a simple interior design program from Punch software with the intent of throwing a couple different designs together and then drawing the final project by hand as we have done on all our other projects when we are not using a designer.
After drawing up a couple designs, I sat down, thought about where I want my business to go, how I do not want to lose these two jobs and have decided it's worth investing in a good program to draw our remodeling projects.
I didn't know about google's product, I wasn't sure I wanted autocad Lt as I already think autocad takes me too much time, I wasn't sure turbocad would give us what we needed, thought about 20/20 because this is what all our designer's use, thought about chief architect because it was recommended by 20/20's rep when I indicated $4k plus $450/yr fee was to much for us to spend on 20/20 and last but not least thought of softplan after seeing it at a builder's show.
What would you guys pick if the following was most important:
1. quick learning curve.
2. ability to create drawings in a reasoneable amount of time.
3. show drawings in 3d
4. use drawings for engineering, submittals, field and shop drawings
5. possibly use drawings for creating matl. lists.
6. easy to print on 8 1/2 x 11 through 11x17
7. able to email to clients and post on our website.
I appreciate everyone's comments and need to decide what to do pretty quickly as I don't want to lose these two jobs. I also don't want to purchase something that's too difficult to use or doesn't perform like it's advertised, so I really appreciate everyone's input.
thanks again,
dale
elad
<<<
1. quick learning curve.
2. ability to create drawings in a reasoneable amount of time.
3. show drawings in 3d
4. use drawings for engineering, submittals, field and shop drawings
5. possibly use drawings for creating matl. lists.
6. easy to print on 8 1/2 x 11 through 11x17
7. able to email to clients and post on our website. >>>
1> there is no quick learning curve.. you can produce construction drawings in about two weeks with Chief.. or Softplan... probably Vectorworks also
2. construction drawigns can be done fast.. i nknow power users who can do a 10 sheet single family house in one day.. it takes me a month
3> Chief & Softplan design in 3-d, they can display in 2d or 3d, or rendering
they can print in those modes also
4.5, 6, C,S &V all do those
#7.. most programs , will not display on a customer's computer unless they have a special "viewer software"...... i would imagine Softplan & Vectorworks have those
i KNOW Chief has a Client Viewer.. but they have to load it on their computer in order to use it
all have formats for sending drawings to other professionals who may need to work on them
VectorWorks allows team design.. different designers working on different phases
Chief & Softplan are for single work stations.. once you had it off to another designer , on another computer, they alter it and it is harder to reintegrate it into one master plan.. this is not a problem in a small office.. only in a large architectural firm
if you wear many hats besides the designer hat, you will always have problems in proficiency with any CAD program... the real power users do nothing but CAD design
in spite of that , every once in awhile i attend Adanced Classes in Chief, and i find that i actually know more than i thought i did
to me..reading what you said... i'd recommend you stick to Chief or Softplan
i've fooled with Sketchup & i don't think it is really the cats pajammas that a lot of Sketchup users think it is
it is a wonderful program... but it is not good at producing construction drawings
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You might want to look into ecabinets software program, it's free. The learning curve is about average and you can produce line drawings, 3d drawings and cutlists for all the cabinet parts.You can even export the cutlist to a Thermwood CNC router.
Joe,
Do you have a download website for that ecabinets software?
For client sharing, I just save selcted views as Jpeegs and email or print them, same with floorplans or elevations, I can send them as Jpegs or as PDFs.SP offers a viewer, but it costs the license holder some couple hundred bucks, then the client can download his version and install it in his PCV, but to send, the license holder has to but that end to convert to a viewable file.
Not something I consider worth the bucks unless working with a technically adept client who wants to pay for the WOW factor. a third of my clients rarely go near a PC, another third wouldn't know how top open a PDF attachment if it bit them...
So including open jpg drawings in emails covers 2/3s of my customers
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, Mike - have you ever tried to save a page from SoftPlan or Vector as a jpeg or other similar file? I'm a big fan of SoftPlan, but I don't have it anymore... I think that this might be possible for emails, while retaining the security that the company wants.
Elad,
I was in the same spot as you are four years ago. I needed good software. I chose Chief Arch for all the reasons you listed. In less than one week, I had 3-d layout of a proposed kitchen with maple cabinets with maple door frames and mahogany panels and red granite countertops and cork tile floors.
Signed a 60K contract that night.
The only thing I wish I had done sooner was go to the Chief training seminar. In two days I learned how to do things in ten seconds that used to take hours. Chief is incredibly powerful, the challenge is making the time to learn all the power that is there. I just took the intermediate class this fall. I will take the advanced class very soon.
It is well worth the money.
Bruce
hiker... i'm thinking of the Advanced class in Couer d'alene next summer...
bring my golf clubsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was thinking about Idaho next summer as well. I just need to convince my wife that it would be a good trip for the family particulary the 2 yr old and the 5month old.
I might have to sneek the clubs in my carry-on.
Let me look into it further.
Bruce
My stepson just moved back from Sandpoint, north of there half an hour or so.
Slip a camera into your golf bag too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Dale -
Those are all important aspects of a CAD program, but the bottom line is that you're gonna have to invest quite a bit of time in learning to use whatever program you choose. You can shorten the learning curve by getting some formal training, but you can't eliminate it. In my 10+ years of using AutoCad LT, I was still learning something new almost every time I opened a file - lol.
I've been using PC's since '81 and have never found a computer program that was "intuitive". Some are certainly easier than others, but I've found that the "easy" programs are also the most limited. Some of the cabinet design software I've seen does a great job of showing cabinets, but would be totally useless for doing framing drawings.
I'm at the same place as you are regarding showing customers better drawings. A few weeks ago, I met with a customer about their kitchen remodel. I spent a couple of hours whipping out some basic plan and elevation drawings in AutoCad LT, but lost out to someone who gave them some 3D "sketches". Those "sketches" were really pretty bad, but they definitely gave the customer a better "picture" of the finished kitchen than my drawings.
I had been thinking of moving up to some 3D software and that loss made the decision for me. An acquaintance of mine will be building a custom home next year and we've talked a little about me doing all of their cabinetry. I'm planning on being ready to blow their doors off when they're ready - lol.
Hi, Everyone-
After careful review and determining we couldn't go wrong either way, we chose softplan as it will work best for our situation. We made our decision based upon the below listed items:
1. End of year sale on softplan bringing it closer to the price of chief architect.
2. Softlist (material list)
3. Need to upgrade chiefarchitect sometime next year (forget exact time).
4. Where we want our company to go.
5. Everyone's comments on this forum and http://www.jlconline.com
We will receive the program tomorrow afternoon and I'll let you guys know how it goes drawing our next project. Thanks for everyone's comments and Happy Holidays.
Dale
Everyone-
as you all know we purchased softplan v13 a little over a month ago and I wanted to report back to let everyone know what we think.
The program rocks. :)
I say this because we've been able to produce 20/20 type k&b design drawings for half the cost of 20/20 and also provide the customer and subs with a full set of drawings for the balance of the remodel project. This is key for the following reasons:
1. current project is a kitchen, two bath remodel along with relocated the laundry area, misc framing throughout the house, new windows, exterior doors and stucco cladding. On past projects we'd typically use the 20/20 design drawings for the k&b and then hand draw the balance. Nothing like being able to do it all at once, make sure it works on paper and easily be able to modify the drawings as needed during the design process.
2. clients want to see the project in 3d.
3. better project control.
4. feel like this opens a new market for us.
5. ability to speed up the drawing process with pre-drawn parts from librarys
If you use it, I think this type of program is a great investment. Thanks for everyone's assistance during the decision process and happy new year.
Dale
Enjoy!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Elad, thank you for the follow up. Glad you got something that works for you!
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Mike Smith has some good observations. He uses Chief and I use Softplan. From all I have heard they are similar programs. I think Piffin uses Softplan, and Bosshog has started in Softplan in the last year or so.
Softplan works for me in all aspects, offering more that I can use. I am sure other programs have simialr help, but aside from good tutorials, Softplan has an exclusive user forum http://www.splash.softplansplsh.org. There are many well experienced users on the forum with good hearts. When facing a problem or question about usage, post your issue and get tons of "extra mile" help. Some have gone so far as to produced drawings and / or renderings for me in just a few minutes.
Softplan also offers a less expensive Lite version, with upgrades to the full version as may be required avaliable. Boss may have Lite.
I bought Softplan becasue it was recommended by NAHB, and I saw it at a NAHB Convention. There has been quite a bit of organization in the past few years, with lots of plans now offered in Softplan to builders / designers.
They also have a Softplan Review for clients viewing, avaliable for about $400.00. Downloads of the use tool, a client viewer by the client are free on the website, with the ablility to mark and make notes within the viewer. I also find it effective to copy drawings to a pdf writer / file and email to clients. See pdf of SP created floor plan in pdf format.
SP is expensive, but it has more than paid for itself.
Softplan can do all the above, but not all easily.I consider 3D renderings paramount is client communications and for sales talks.Some of the cabinet rendering portion in SP is probably one of their weakest links though. I do use it for presentation and think that while 20/20 is faster, it is no more accurate. Custom cabs like I do still require a lot of line drawing and the time it takes to produce accurate working drawings for the shop and for final 2D elevatiuons for client approval. It might be that V13 has more power there, but I am still on V12When using SP for matl lists, there are two things to keep in mind;If you don't draw it, the list will not include it. For instance, if you forget to draw the floor assembly and finish surface material, the program will not include framing, subfloor, or flooring in the list.Conversly, in remodeling, you start by creating a model of the existing structure. All those items must be labeled NOT to be included in Softlist before drawing the new plan. Easy to do if you remember to first. Start drawing first and making changes and then you'll need to go through and hit each and every item with an deit to make the matl list accurate. It's only as smart as the user, and I learned the hard way. Another thing, the Softlist module does not calculate for wate. For instance, I know I need to figure 15-25% waste in framing lumber ( studs anyway, not floor or cieling) on remo projects, so I edit that one item in the list. I suspect there is a way to make it deal with waste calculatipons though.My experience on new work is that Softlist is very accurate otherwise, but for remo - well remo is harder to calc anyways.Quick learning curve - I considered it easy for me to learn, becoming quite productive in three weeks, but having sold my first 37K kitchen within ten days after loading it into the PC. But that was V9,
V13 has so much more that I suppose it could take a bit longer to get comfortable with it. I don't know - but then there are training discs available now. I learned straight from the book. It probably depends on your learning style. Some do better fiddling and teaching themselves, some from a book, and some via show and tell with an experienced user or the discs.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin-
thanks for your comments, if it's not to much trouble can you answer the two questions below:
1. I'd like to be able to email drawings and/or 3d renderings for clients to view on their computers. Do you need softplan reView for this or how is this done and do you like using softplan reView?
2. Does softplan let you walk through the drawing like chief architect?
thanks again,
dale
To send a Jpeg of anything I have, I just go File> save as> choose Jpeg format and name the file> save. Then I attach the new file to an email per usual.For PDFs, I have three different PDF writes installed on my PC, two are free downloads - pdf995 is one
They reside in the printers folder of the PC once installed.
So I go file> print> choose which pdf printer> and arrange the print window on the drawing, and say OK
Then I can attach the pdf to an emailSo it is all basic PC skills, no special viewer needed. I think with the SP viewer, they can fly thru and choose their own views, even to the point of getting lost in the middle of a wall or the attic...which can be a problem in itself. I do not want to become a technical advisor to a client who can barely keep his antivirus up to date or remember to turn his machine off at night.
I think SP 13 has fly through capabilities, but I don't use that, mine is V12. I do not do design work in front of the client. Too much chance for problems with them looking over my shoulder and telling me how to, what to...
So active fly through has no value for me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
just to clarify, it takes me 10-15 seconds to reposition the camera in 3D and see another view
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just another vote for Archicad, although it is pretty expensive.The program, in my opinion, is amazing. I tried AutoCad back in the day, and just never felt like it was user friendly enough.Archicad however, is an absolute breeze to use. Last week I did a basement remodel plan in about 40 minutes. The great thing is, as soon as I draw the plan view, all elements are ready to be viewed in 3d.The 3d modeling can be as photo-realistic as you want them to be. Sections, details and elevations are easy to do and the entire project can be altered from any view (3d, section, elevation, plan).Doing a kitchen to show a client? Archicad makes it simple to throw up a rough model of the house so that you can spend less time modeling the structure and more time modeling the cabinets, counters, etc.Last night I used the program to draw some Rose and Trefoil windows and found that it was even easier than SketchUp. (I had both programs open and would switch between them as I modeled)The program is pricey, but it is a full featured cad program that is used extensively in Europe and is used for complete plan / section/ detail for everything from massive civil projects and skyscrapers to single family log structures.(Can you tell I like it a lot? ;-) )Ah yes - day late and a dollar short!
Edited 12/14/2006 6:46 am ET by twofingers
I'm just getting into TurboCad 12 and like it pretty well. I have the Professional edition but they also sell a Deluxe edition for ~$100.
How much CAD experience do you have? There's always a learning curve with software and the steepest curve is with the first program you learn. With the first one, you're learning what the program can do as well as how to do it.
If there's a JC nearby, you might take a couple of CAD classes. That should shorten the learning curve and expose you to some software you don't have to buy first.
The comment re: JC's is interesting as I found in our area they only teach AUTOCAD. Then after exposure to that I really didn't like working with TCAD or Chief ( tried them both) then bit the bullet and got AUTOCAD. It would be nice if Autodesk offered a scaled down version of 3-d AUTOCAD at a little more reasonable price. AUTOCAD LT is frustrating as it is really only usefull for 2 dimensional drawings & not modeling (even though you can loft 2-d's into a 3rd dimension). OTH if you are wanting to do 2-d drawings (which would look like they were drawn on paper by hand) LT is real drafting and a bunch cheaper than 3-d AUTOCAD.
at this point in CAD evolution, i would never choose AutoCad for residential design
it should be an object based program like VectorWorks, Chief Architect, or Softplan
Archicad would also be superior to AutoCad
other than market share , AutoCad has very little to offerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You wanna know what I would chose Acad for?ADSK actually - as an investment if I could catch it on a price dip.but you have named the big three for this poster. Maybe that free Sketchup program.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
other than market share , AutoCad has very little to offer
That's no lie. Other than you left out ridiculously large price, and ugly extortions to keep making expensive upgrades.
Ok, so it's cheaper than the average CAM software, that's not much of a selling point.
Long and short of it, AutoCAD peaked about V2000 or V2000i as a general drafting tool. ADT was never a tool for residential or light construction, and by ADT2004, they'd stoped bothering to even pretend they had any of those customers. Now, the focus is all on BIM (Building Information Management), which is only effective--with the current software--for huge architectural projects, airports, stadia, convention centers.
CA and Turbo are really much better suited for residential builders--although much of the take-off and estimating "stuff" may not help remodelers. Until somebody builds that "magic bullet" application, the remodeling market will be left behind. That is, until somebody notices the potential market share of tens of thousands of small offices out there, even with microscopic IT 'budgets' are a better deal than "chasing" a few hundred "big" offices out there. Mind you, as the McHouses start to age, and the 2nd/3rd owners start finding out what sort of pig-in-a-poke they are financing for the next 3 decades, that might jsut change.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Jim -
Yeah, I know all about AutoCad LT. I've used it for over 10 years and was(am?) almost a "power user". I've taught several people how to use it.
I went thru quite a bit of looking before I decided on TurboCad. I downloaded their 30 day free trial of Version 12 Professional and played with it quite a bit. It seemed to be the most similar to AutoCad so I went for it. They have a "competitive upgrade" deal for folks who have registered CAD programs from other companies so the price is pretty good (~$400). That's WAY better than 3D AutoCad at ~$2500 - lol
Since then, I've found that there are some things that are annoying but I suspect that's more about my ignorance than any fault of the program. Everytime I use it, I find it easier to use.
One thing I've discovered is that it's much easier to draw in 3D. When I first learned drafting (shortly after the earth cooled), I liked perspective drawing much more than plan & elevation - it was much easier for me to "see". I just finished a proposal for a home office and found that the ability to work in 3D really helped me visualize the pieces of cabinetry as I drew them. It was almost like building prototypes but much, much cheaper! The customer really liked seeing "pictures" of my ideas rather than a bunch of lines on a piece of paper.
Dave,
That's the real reason I went from LT to 3-d Autocad. I find that modeling gives better insight than 2-d drafting.
Ya, the price is steep but the accuracy for me (once you learn the system) is better than Object Oriented programs. I think the Object Oriented programs work well (probably better) than ACAD for getting HO's to visualize what is beeing proposed.
That's WAY better than 3D AutoCad at ~$2500 - lol
Especially since the MSRP is closer to $3875 for ACAD 2007; dealer can get that down to around $3700 each for 3 or more seats, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Why wouldn't you consider Sketchup? The home use version is available free from Google. The "Pro 5" package costs $495.
How many rooms do you do per year?
These screen shots are all of the same kitchen. The model has "pages" which I used to define the section cuts that give the four elevations. I could have detailed out the kitchen in full detail and color, showing hardware, fixtures, tile, etc. This one was only to define the general arrangement and to get the cab package ordered.
Turn the perspective off, and you can do all the plan views and elevations needed, plus sections.
Google has a free downloadable components library that contains huge selections of plumbingware already modeled that you can cut and paste into your models, and the major appliance manufacturers are starting now to include in those libraries, models of everything they offer. Windows and doors? Marvin has now included their entire offering.
Given the basic room measurements, I can sit down and do a model for a kitchen like this in under 40 minutes.
View Image
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I tried the free download of Sketchup and never got comfortable with it - and wasn't willing to pop for ~$500 to see if the "real" program was much better.
Here's a drawing I did for a home office proposal. It took about 6 hours to do this and quit a bit of that time was spent looking things up - and making mistakes - lol. I'll add doors and drawer fronts when she decides what styles she wants.
I added the bookcase in about 15 minutes. I'm sticking to Draft Rendering for now because I don't like the look of the wood in Quality Rendering but haven't really gotten into playing with the settings yet. For the moment, I'm focusing on mastering the basic drawing work.
I've been using Softplan since 1993 and I have nothing to compare it to except Autocad and some TurboCad, I think, in college. For residential design I think it is fast, easy, and very accurate. I'm still using V. 11 and I believe V. 13 is now out.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
It all depends on the operators comfort and skill level. I use Auto Cad 2D for furniture design and remodeling because I was trained to draw in 2D by hand and think in 3D . My best advise before you spend the money is to read the help file of each program that you're considering.
Something more than the operators skill level.You can draw in 2D while thinking in 3D, but 9 of 10 potential customers cannot look at 2D while thinking in 3D, so most of the communication aspect of a drawing is lost.2D ios fine for us technical guys, but for sales and commuication, 3D is the only way to go.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I Agree.
".......potential customers cannot look at 2D while thinking in 3D"
A big Amen to that one, Piffin!! Those plan and elevations look just fine to me, but I looked at that stuff for all of my 30 year engineering career.- lol
One of my favorite customers once told me that she had no idea of what I was trying to show her with my 2D drawings, but she totally trusted my judgement so she would listen politely while I rambled on about her project.
I usually offer to take digital pictures of a project as I build it and a lot of customers enjoy seeing their project "grow" from a pile of lumber to whatever they're buying. When I built a china hutch for this customer earlier this year, the first picture I sent her was of the material piled in the back of the pickup. In my email, I told her that the rest of the process was simply a matter of cutting off everything that didn't look like a china hutch and putting it all together. She was still giggling when I delivered it two weeks later. - lol
Hey, everyone-
I spent a good part of the day reviewing chief architect & softplan's sites along with chief architect's user forum. I called softplan and they indicated the softsplash user group will be open to everyone within the next couple days. Also bounced over to the forum's on jlconline.com and reviewed what everyone had to say. It's going to be a tough choice as both programs look pretty great. I'll let you guys know what I choose and thanks again for all the comments.
Dale
So...What did you decide. I was asking the same question and only got as far as narrowing things down to Vectorworks, Chief Arch, and Softplan. Then I got busy with work and forgot about it. I'm home with a cold this week and started poking about again.Cheers Greg
greg-
sorry to hear about the cold. we spoke with softplan and their user group is being redone and opened to the public sometime this week, so we decided to not make our decision until we get onto softplan's user group and check out the discussions. it looks like you can't miss either way you go.
cheers,
dale
dale.. you do know there are two user groups for Chief , right ?
one is at the Chief website , and sponsored by Chief
the other is independent
chief-users@yahoogroups.com <chief-users@yahoogroups.com>
the 2d one is email based.. i get about 10 - 20 emails a day from them
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike-
looked at chief's user group accessible from their site. I'll check out the other site.
thanks for the info.
dale
MikeYahoo groups are also on the web. This one is at;http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chief-users/And it is open to the public.And a couple of other Chief related forums.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/originalsymbols/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Chief-Architect-ArtLantis/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chief-udraw/the first 2 require registration.