I am supposed to be running a major highschool reconstruction starting in Feb/March. It seemed this job would get me through the slowdown next year.
The state just announced today all funding for infrastructure is stopped due to budget woes. I heard on tonights news 60 million of work in the county that the job is in has been put on hold.
Should make for a stressful few days ahead.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Replies
California has a problem called the Prop. 13 blues. When Prop. 13 first became law, many municipalities in CA lost so much revenue that they had to lay off a substantial number of their employees, including police and fire fighters. Crime rose and etc.
Since then, other sources of tax revenue have had to be found or their rates raised in order to keep the government working.
What's Prop. 13? It's a law that fixes property assessments at the market value of the home when purchased. It's meant to allow people to stay in their homes when they retire. There's also a provision in this law that allows the children of the home's buyers to inheirit the house, living in it under the original assessed value.
It's a good idea which doesn't work as well as it should because, like rent control, it's logic gets carried too far.
Edited 12/18/2008 2:55 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Rent control.....yeeks! I haven't thought of that in years. Ever since leaving the Big Apple.
Rent control.....yeeks! I haven't thought of that in years. Ever since leaving the Big Apple.
It used to be that everyone I knew in Manhattan was looking for a rent controlled apartment. It was like being a prospector during the gold rush days and, for all I know, it still is.
I knew one couple who, in the mid-70s, found a tiny second floor rent controlled walk-up over a store front on Madison Ave, somewhere between 73rd and 76th. The rent was fixed at about $450/month.
For those unfamiliar with Manhattan, that's about as nice/cool a neighborhood as any renter could ask for, one block east of 5th Ave and Central Park, very near the Metropolitan Museum, subway on Lexington Ave, one long block to the east and down a few short blocks.
NYC rent control allows sub-letting too so many renters hold such places for their entire lifetimes, earning money that, IMO, rightfully belongs to the property owner.
The reason that rent control became law was that the pressure for rental properties in the city drove prices up to absurd figures. Landlords were gouging tenants for ever higher amounts, every time the lease came up for renewal.
IMO, these laws/propositions should be re-written every ten years or so, to allow legislators and others to rethink how they might better serve everyone's interests.
Edited 12/18/2008 11:29 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
if it's rent controlled are the property taxes also frozen? i'm all but never for someone else tell me what i charge... i'm a free market person... if it's a barber renting the apt... he should have to charge 1970 prices for a hair cut... just another way for gov to take income from one and GIVE it to another...
p
I don't believe they are. I'm in the liberal bastion of MA and even this state voted out rent control about 10 years ago. I believe only Boston, Cambridge and one other city had it in the whole state but it was a statewide ballot question that killed it for everyone.What rent control also does it hurt the neighbors. If you own a property and you are forced to charge a fraction of the market rate rent then what desire would the owner have to keep up the property or improve it?The chairman of the US House ways and means committee (the main committee for tax policy) has 4 rent controlled apartments and he makes over $200k per year.http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/11/rangels-rent-control-mansion/
Edited 12/18/2008 9:16 pm ET by DDay
Well familiar with 13, but its not like there are no property taxes. We pay over 6K a year.
I've got to get out the door and to the office. Just last week I started going over these plans and getting the preplanning and RFI process rolling. I better throw the work boots in the truck, might be hanging rock soon. ; ^ ) Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Well familiar with 13, but its not like there are no property taxes. We pay over 6K a year.
But how would you feel, knowing that under Prop. 13 some people in the same neighborhood with homes of similar market value were paying $600/yr? It's not only possible but, depending on the age of the homes, it's quite likely.
I'm not saying that property tax abatements for seniors and some others doesn't make sense. My opinion is that, if the goal of property taxes is to pay for basic local services (police, fire, street maintenance, etc.), everyone should share those costs.
The problems which arise with property taxes, and other taxes as well, have always been in defining what they should pay for. Too often expensive social programs which don't serve the local community are added into property taxes by the state.
That's what brought about Prop. 13 in California, a law which has been used as an example for many other states in writing similar legislation.
To add:
Recent buyers with high assessments may ask for reductions in the assessed value. If one's assessment is below current value, they raise it 2% every year.
We pay lots of make-up taxes. My mom pays a "street light" tax to keep the lights on. I pay over $2000 of school bond, road bond, paramedic, local government retirement, etc. Also, the Governator just raised income taxes 2.5% to 12.5% for those in the highest bracket. Our sales tax is 8.25%.
If my mom had to pay on the real value of the home they bought in 1964 for $21,000 the tax would be over $1000/ month. She only gets $2000/ month for being a teacher her whole life and has to pay income tax on that.
Prop 13 was created to prevent real estate speculators from driving up taxes as well as prices.
OB
The problem is that CA is assessing property incorrectly. In MN everything is assessed at market price, but then, for a given school board, city, or county (the entities that collect property taxes) the required amount of tax revenue is divided by the total property value to determine the mill rate. There's some state aid thrown in to reduce taxes on some properties, but that's after the basic tax for each property is determined.This way, if property values go up uniformly in the tax district (which is reasonably small) then property taxes remain essentially unchanged (other than the usual increases for increasing government costs), and no one is paying an extremely high or low tax based on when they bought the property.Of course, I guess this wouldn't work too well for states that collect a state property tax, but some sort of similar scheme could be worked out.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
In New York State, property taxes and school taxes are levied separately.
The school taxes are paid to the school district, not the state. I'm sure that this system is a boon to wealthier communities but I'm equally certain that inner city schools suffer from it.
Conversely, NY State's laws make each county responsible for the amount of welfare paid out. Yet NY State liberal welfare laws allow welfare recipients to move freely from one county to another.
So my county in NY, within range of NYC, has become a second home for many of NYC's welfare families. And my property taxes have gone up accordingly.
Two examples of limited intelligence in social policy law making, one too narrow and the other too broad.
That's one of the reasons why I believe that such laws should be publicly reviewed, debated and re-written, every ten years.
Yeah, there's some merit to redoing things on a firm schedule, but if that were put into the state constitution you know the two parties would end up playing chicken every ten years as the deadline approached. Wouldn't really solve the problem (that really revolves around uninformed voters).
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I'm more in favor of encouraging open public debate on the web and in newspapers.
I've clarified a lot of my concerns about social policies and other political subjects by writing posts and debating on political message boards sponsored by such newspapers as the NY Times.
I believe it would be fairly easy to set up a message board community for more formal style public debates, sponsored and monitored by the appropriate government body. That could bring out some better solutions to legislative issues, like these.
Or it could end up like the Tavern on a bad day, pre-election. That's what I'd bet on, knowing human nature.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Or it could end up like the Tavern on a bad day, pre-election. That's what I'd bet on, knowing human nature.
I haven't been a subscriber to the Tavern for about a year, because of the rancor that anonymity brings out in some who post there.
I've seen many civilized political debates on more formal message boards where the mods keep things running smoothly, remaining on topic and within respectful bounds. The disagreements can still get heated and tinged with sarcasm but they often produce some excellent results.
The NY Times used to have a "topic of the day" board which operated quite well. That's the kind of forum that I'd like to see, sponsored and moderated by a state's legislature or other elected body.
Any state-sponsored board is going to expend 95% of it bits dickering over "freedom of speech".
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Any state-sponsored board is going to expend 95% of it bits dickering over "freedom of speech".
Fine. Just make it a topic and keep posts on that subject in that folder.
It's really not all that difficult to set up procedures for debates, though admittedly monitoring them may not be a pleasant task.
Edited 12/18/2008 3:51 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Doesn't any building permit allow the "value" of the home to be adjusted upwards in California?
That approach does have merit.. it's fairly normal for families in my neighborhood to be taxed out of the homes they raised their family in just as they approach retirement. Makes for a vibrant neighborhood as those homes are sold off, torn down and replaced with bigger homes worthy of the amount spent acquiring the land.. Standard price for a 50 foot lot is between 1.25 million and 1.5 million regardless of the home on top of it..
There should be no property tax breaks for seniors. if you cannot afford the house, sell and move out. they have become parasites on the system, not paying their fair share. also crippling the health care system in this country.The "greatest generation" should be ashamed of themselves.
Yep, and since (as we're often told) marriages are for having kids and child-rearing, once seniors are past child-bearing age and the kids have moved out their marriages should be dissolved, and any tax breaks associated with marriage cancelled.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
at the federal level married couples have not breaks, they pay at a higher rate, it's typically termed the marriage penalty. They pay more than they would if they filed separately.
Wrong!! The "marriage penalty" is a red herring -- it only applies to couples where both are earning nearly the same salaries.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Yeah, whatever. Do you like lying?Stop reading the NY times and the other rags and find some non biased information.
Edited 12/19/2008 9:04 pm ET by DDay
I've never read an actual copy of the NYT, and only go to their web page when following a link from somewhere else.Why don't you stop believing the conservative blogs and think for yourself?
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Bitter since you have false information and now look foolish. I understand. Look at the bright side though, hopefully you recognize how wrong you are (because you are very wrong), and now you can fix the error.
yeah, i see where you are going with that. i was addressing specifically the prop 13 mess.the majority of the elderly vote conservatively, yet here in california they would never vote against such a socialist form of government tampering like prop 13.in california, it is not uncommon to see an elderly lady living alone in a 3 bedroom ranch house. next door, in the same size house, are 3 latino families all sharing the same size house. something is seriously out of whack.
The "greatest generation" should be ashamed of themselves.
That phrase was coined by a member of my generation, whose parents were part of "the greatest generation".
The really great members of that generation are quiet, responsible people who would never look for a way out of paying their fair share.
California has a problem called the Prop. 13 blues
California politicians have beem blaming Prop 13 for years while raising taxes and spending like there was no tomorrow.
California is one of the highest taxed states in the country and still will have a huge deficit.
They have spent the state into bankruptcy, and blame it on Prop 13. There is no amount of tax that will satisfy the Dems who have controlled CA for the last 50 years, they spend it all and more.
Joe H
Edited 12/18/2008 12:42 pm by JoeH
Joe.
I don't see any evidence of over spending on social programs in Los Angeles. Nor have I heard or read any stories of corruption or other dereliction of duty.
On the contrary, I've seen on the news, over the last ten years, that several of L.A. County's public hospitals and clinics, staffed and partially underwritten by UCLA's medical school, have been forced to close due to reductions in funding from the state. This happened in spite of great need and many protests by the communities they served.
The South Central LA community has been fighting to keep their county hospital open for more than ten years. It closed its emergency room for about one year but many protest marches and speeches later, it recently re-opened.
Edited 12/18/2008 2:02 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"Joe.I don't see any evidence of over spending on social programs in Los Angeles. Nor have I heard or read any stories of corruption or other dereliction of duty.On the contrary, I've seen on the news, over the last ten years, that several of L.A. County's public hospitals and clinics, staffed and partially underwritten by UCLA's medical school, have been forced to close due to reductions in funding from the state. This happened in spite of great need and many protests by the communities they served.The South Central LA community has been fighting to keep their county hospital open for more than ten years. It closed its emergency room for about one year but many protest marches and speeches later, it recently re-opened."Two of the states in the worst financial situation are California and NY, and both have spend like drunken sailors and tax everything in the world. Their only solution is to raise taxes, just look at the NY papers and see that the new gov. (the moderate perv gov considering the major perv in Spitzer) wants to tax everything. And look at the taxes, taxes on movies, taxi's, etc. The tax policies they want will decrease economic growth even more and decrease the tax revenue.The big tax states are having the problems. There is no suprise why both states are losing population, ditto places like Michigan another place where they solve things with higher taxes. These states have lost a lot of business on top of the loss of people and it will only continue. They need to act responsible and stop spending. CA has massive amounts of oil off their coast as well as natural gas. They could generate billions in taxes and hundreds of billions in economic growth by developing those resources but they cede to the environmental fringe groups. I have no sympathy for either state, they made their mess, let them live with it. I do feel badly for the minority in those states that do not support the tax and spenders. But they'll probably be moving soon just like millions of others.
California politicians have beem blaming Prop 13 for years while raising taxes and spending like there was no tomorrow.
BINGO!
cut the programs and free aid to Illegals and budget gets balanced simple as that.
ML
Yeah, right.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
>>>>Yeah, right.Your right it will never happen, but it would be a good start!LOS ANGELES - Through their citizen children, illegal immigrants in Los Angeles County collect $420 million annually in welfare and food stamps, according to a report requested by 5th District County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.http://wehategringos.com/whg/?p=1567
First off, you gloss over the point that their children are citizens, and are entitled to the aid. Second, $420 million (if that number is real) isn't going to balance the CA budget.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I agree but if they would not have entered the US Illegal which is a Felony if I'm not mistaken the state would still have their $420M, which woudl be closer to balancing the budget.ML
we all break laws.. get caught speeding or running a light and you pay your fine and move on..
What Bush recommended was the best solution.. have the illegals pay a fine and become legal.. That solves the issue of breaking a law and gets many many tax payers on the books..
Who gives a rats butt where they came from.. we're all illegals to a degree. (last I heard Adam and Eve weren't born in America)
Well Frenchy maybe if you lived in southern California you may have a different take on it.ML
I spend about a month a year there does that count? (town called Temecula) we discuss things a great deal and he likes the fact that his taxes won't go up very much on the property he bought a decade and a half ago. He accepts the fact that taxes must be paid and so when they cut his taxes they have to be made up someplace else.. He understands there is no free lunch and whines like most do about wasteful programs etc..
(he's really conservative) But he knows that if HE STARTS BLAMING THE POOREST. WEAKEST MEMBERS OF SOCIETY HE'S NOT ACCEPTING HIS OWN RESPONSIBILTY FOR PROBLEMS.
That's the real trouble, we get benefits from government and fail to understand just how expensive those benefits are. The fire department is a real waste of money,, (untill your house is on fire) the guys trimming those palm trees are expensive and they have expensive equipment to do the work.. yet let a fonde fall off and dent your car and you'd wish the city would do it's job!
Things cost money.. In Hawaii they call it the paradise tax, California looks very nice when I'm sitting here freezing my butt off but it will be more expensive to live there than here.. That's the price you pay!
There are cheaper places.. North Dakota is a whole lot cheaper. But really pretty vacant.. Palm Beach Florida is expensive but there aren't a lot of vacant houses sitting around..
The highest taxed state in the country is Conneticut but it's also the highest per capita income..
It's a trade off. If you want to live cheap move to Mississippi or North dakota, if you want to live nice you have to pay for it. Stop whining..
First of all I'm not whining. Just wish we did not give aid to those here illegaly. You don't hear me complaining about the high cost of living since my salary matches it. I know we could always move and lower our cost of living but will remain right here until we retire then get out of here as fast as we can.Temecula is about a hour southeast of me,is nice but a bit warm in the summer, I'll keep the year round 72* weather for now.ML
aide to illegals?
Well Bush had the solution to that problem but too many didn't like it so like all issues regarding immagration nothing was done..
Doing nothing is a choice just as is doing something..
My take on it is you want to take care of illegals. Sure some abuse the system but that aplies even with regard to citizens as well.. Drunks, whino's, drug addicts, etc. may all be citizens and need massive amounts of medical attention relative to their contribution to society.
If we don't treat everybody then we will soon have typhoid Mary's around and worse.. that kid washing your dishes may be illegal but are you sure you don't care if he's healthy?
Some of those workers making fast food may be illegal but isn't it more important that they are healthy rather than they have a piece of paper?
The world isn't perfect.. but this is something that can be fixed.. so let's fix it and move on..
Don't be so confident the children are citizens and legally allowed the aid, in most places illegals get the aid since they never check into peoples status. Obama's long lost aunt was in a public housing apartment in Boston for the last four years despite being here illegally and unlawfully ignoring a deportation order from a federal judge. The major cost to LA and similar areas are the cost of schooling the children, both legal and illegal and the cost for healthcare when illegal aliens use emergency room care, the most expensive type of care, for normal medical care and they never pay the charges. That is the reason many hospitals in areas like LA are facing major financial obstacles.
But that clearly-biased-against-them source said they were citizens. It doesn't seem to me they would have mentioned that if they didn't believe it was true.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Guess you never heard the term "Jackpot Baby!"
"Guess you never heard the term "Jackpot Baby!"" It's more often termed anchor baby.I didn't bother to look at that link but illegal's in CA are a huge problem. I think the number of illegals in CA prisons is around 80,000 and each one of them costs an average of $45k or more to incarcerate per year. If they were never in the country then there is no expense. I understand why people want to escape their home country and come here but that is no excuse and anything other than legal immigration is criminal.LA, SF, NYC and many other cities are sanctuary cities, they have passed laws that forbid police or any other gov. workers to ask about their legal status. That is unacceptable. If they do not like the federal laws, work to change them, otherwise be part of the solution, not the problem.
Edited 12/18/2008 8:03 pm ET by DDay
the percentage of illegals in prison California or elsewhere is about on par with the percentage of population in general.. The only race that is disproportionally represented in the prison population is African American.
No one should break our laws. When they do they need to be arrested and dealt with accordingly.
Illegals are in a no mans land. We need their labor to do many of the tasks we would prefer not to do ourselves.. So we turn a blind eye to them..
There are simple effective ways to stop almost all illegals from coming here.. Fine or imprison those who hire illegal workers.
Untill we do they will continue to flood across our borders..
If you don't like it, join the Immagration service. After 2 years you can make $65,000 a year!
the percentage of illegals in prison California or elsewhere is about on par with the percentage of population in general.. The only race that is disproportionally represented in the prison population is African American.
Frenchy the % of illegals in prison is right aroud 30% in California.I don't think the number of illegals in America is at 30%.
I agree with you we shouldbe going after the people that hire them, That means anyone that is emplying an illegal person to watch your kids, mow your grass, or clean your house, or the ones you hire at the Depot parking lot.
Your part of the problem.
ML
one of the few things i don't know the answer on... illegals....
the ones i deal with and assume they are illegal... are hard working honest and have a work ethic not seen today...
I have great respect for someone who travels 1500miles with a few pair of jeans and a t-shirt and a willingness to do nothing but work
if they were all gone tomorrow... I believe it'd be a bigger hit on the economy than that we have seen to date on wall street... we have a large population of illegals but it's not huge... BUT i can see 10's of thousands of rental properties go vacant... complete shopping centers that depend on their dollars empty... sales tax collected go way down...ect... I know many landlords that would be broke in a month which means more forclosures... we don't have the population to absorb that many empty houses...
I know some costs would go down... education (which here is funded by prop tax... so maybe thats a wash but I'd bet it'd be a net loss to the schools)...
when someone comes to the USA they can have something they never had before no matter how much they wanted it... a job... maybe 2 jobs... when you are accustomed to living on very little... even min wage jobs support you better than to that which you are accustomed...
IMHO every new wave of people into the USA as a whole has produced 2 generations at best.... of workers... then they become american and get lazy or forget/never learn how to work
no answers just observations
p
I agree with most of your statements. Illegals are a problem only because they are undocumented.. if it was as easy to document them as when our forefathers arrived there wouldn't be an issue..
actually property tax recepts would unlikely go down by much. Renters pay their property tax in the rent they pay to the land lord who has to pay property tax on the property they rent.
actually property tax recepts would unlikely go down by much. Renters pay their property tax in the rent they pay to the land lord who has to pay property tax on the property they rent.
unless you follow the train of thought... if there is no market to fill these rentals... then the value would go down as would the value of other like rentals because of the flood of empty units... depressing the the rental rates... which woud depress the property values...
the shopping center i sold this summer depended at least 90% on the hispanic community... coin-op laundry... rent to own furniture... dollar store... hispanic music store... hispanic grocery... ect... without the hispanic dollar i'd collect no rent... the downturn of building on which the hispanic community depends led me to even consider selling it.. (that and I believe i got more than fair market price for it...) BUT i was concerned that my tenants would suffer and in turn rent might get harder to collect... edged me on to selling a shopping center i was getting a very high ROT on... and i didn't want to cut that grass all summer :)
You have to think the flood of people that have come to this country in the last few years pushed alot of new construction and filled alot of empty inner city dwellings... If they all let tomorrow I have no clue who would fill the void... I also believe the numbers are much higher than reported... if our city says there are 50k hispanics here i believe it is at least 4-5x that number
p
I understand your line of thought now.. yes if all hispanics were illegal.. that would be the case. However I know some hispanics who have been here longer than my famuly has.. I'm only third generation American they are 5th generation American.
It's very doubtful multi generational American hispanics would leave to go to Mexico. There is actually a great deal of reverse discrimination in Mexico against hispanics who do not speak spanish well. (but I digress)
I do agree with your statement that Hispanics bring much to our country. Not the least would be rental unit occupation..
Thank you for the truth. Well said!!“At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
HVC<
I like those prop 13 blues! While my prop tax is $800 my neighboris is $6000.
ML
>>It's a good idea which doesn't work as well as it should because, like rent control, it's logic gets carried too far. It's also because in society we often have to choose between competing policies - each of which are "good"It seems to me that many of our real problems arise when folks won't recognize that "both sides" may have good stuff in mind.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Too true.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
It seems to me that many of our real problems arise when folks won't recognize that "both sides" may have good stuff in mind.
Agreed. I always hope, at the end of long political campaigns and elections, that the war paint will be put away and equanimity will prevail.
I was hired at Pasadena City College right after Prop 13 went into existence. The effect was immediate. And it's NOT that logic gets carried too far...that's actually impossible. It's the unintended consequences that happen when governments regulate the private market, as in the rent control scenario. The unintended consquences here that are affecting YOU have nothing to do with Prop.13. It has to do with out of control liberals spending like the idiots they are. I left CA when there was a surplus of $20b + and Grey Davis blew it up big time with his mentally challenged 20-yr electricity and gas contracts. And, as Rev Wright has said, the chickens have finally come home to roost. I hope you finally get your work. Those projects tend to be the things that suffer...just to spite the voting public.BTW, as "hudson Valley Carpenter", what you doing in CA, anyway?? did you go out there for that job?“At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
would you please tone down your name calling?
Out of controll liberals? Really. You mean like Bush and Reagan didn't spend tax payer money like water when they had full control of the presidency house and senate?
seems like conservatives are better at out of control spending than liberals.. remind me again what happened to the 600 billion dollar surplus Clinton left this nation with? What sort of surplus will Bush leave the country with?
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The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
stick to the topic Frenchy. I'm talking about CA. I lived there and I know what happened there.Stupidity by any other name is still stupidity. By some standards, the country is legally broke....since Queen Pelosi and Prince Harry took over. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions...“At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
By the chart Dan H posted above from information given by the white house (and you know who's been running the white house for the last 8 years) it's rather clear that since Carter (one of those liberal's you are railing about) democrats have lowered the debt while republicans have increased the debt.
As for dealing with Calfornia as compared to the rest of America since California is such a major part of the country it's rather natural that the fiscal position of that state reflects the fiscal position of the rest of the country as well.
The idea that taxes can be lowered without it impacting the fiscal soundness of a country/ state is foolish in the extreme.
Like any business or even family finances sufficent income must be enough to offset it's outgo.
While you may not completely understand why those dollars are spent, your lack of understanding doesn't make things wrong or foolish unless you ignore what those funds achieve..
I just realized the original post was not yours...sorry I had you in CA needlessly!!! At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. BushIn other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Edited 12/19/2008 11:56 am ET by unTreatedwood
You keep quoting Bush in your posts.. interesting! Especially considering how generous he is with your tax dollars.. to major republican contributors.
My point is that Bush or Reagan spend like crazy and you don't wonder even when it's pointed out how foolishly it's spent.
Yet when Clinton balanced the economy and even had a surplus of 600 billion dollars to turn over to his replacement.. you fail to give him due respect..
Maybe you should close whatever eye you use to look at party affiliation and consider which person actually does what you claim are the goals of your party..
I guess I'm responsible for getting the political ball rolling in this thread, and contributing to it, though that wasn't my intention.
It's one thing to discuss the merits of contrasting political philosophies, it's another to get into partisan political arguments. That's one distinction that I believe we should try to keep in mind, outside of the Tavern
I wish people could simply look at what variousleaders achieve rather than fist put on their political blinders and deciding how to react.
Bush has done several smart things during his presidency .. I've been willing to point them out.. why not take that position with every leader rather than put on political blinders first?
Hey Frenchy,
this is the business thread, not the Tavern.
I quote anyone I want when they are right.
Check your constitution...do you really know who has authority to spend our tax dollars? Do you know why Clinton was COMPELLED to act like he did? Did you know that Pres. Bush is not a conservative, and has never been one? Any further discussion of this will take place in the tavern, not here.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
prop 13. this is a form of "managed economy", that has no business in our supposedly regulated free market system. You nailed it on the head.it is the 4th rail of government in this state, and heavily supported by the very people that profess to not support socialistic systems. I think it applies to homes purchased before 1978, and kicked off the ballot initiative nightmare in california.yeah, it is rent control for the well off.
prop 13. this is a form of "managed economy",
Prop 13 kept those clowns in Sacramento from taxing people out of their homes.
30 years later another generation of Dem clowns in Sacramento are still spending like drunken sailors and CA is bankrupt.
They have raised taxes a thousand times and a thousand ways since Prop 13 was passed, and they're still blaming their problems on 13, not the incredible spending that has caused the problems.
Joe H
i totally agree, this goes for most governments in general. however this is a separate issue from the prop 13 fiasco.use to be a time in this country when "ask what you can do for your country, not what your country can do for you" was the norm.
however this is a separate issue from the prop 13 fiasco.
I have no idea what you are on about, what Fiasco?
Can't raise taxes enough to force people out of their homes?
You see that as a problem?
There is no amount of money that is enough for the people running Calif.
If property taxes had risen at the rate they were prior to Prop 13, they'd still be bankrupt.
They are looking at a $40,000,000,000 deficit and the Dems running the State gov have an answer, it's higher taxes.
What's the plan for next year? More of the same, if there's anyone left to tax?
Joe H
The new approved 50 million High School to be built in our District here in Maine has also been shelved for 6 -12 months
Here's hoping that the federal stimulus package will come through for you. It's slated to fund a bunch of already booked school construction, etc.
Sorry to hear about that. Seems like all too many of us are getting kicked in the butt.
Something like that may be happening here. Columbus City Schools announced a plan to get schools scheduled for construction started this winter. Which would be nice for me (most of my experience is in school/university work). But they've requested some of them finished by Fall of 2010, which will never happen. It takes a year for design, drawings, specs, permits, bids, etc., then a year for construction. If they started this minute, they'd already be behind the curve.
Add to that Ohio and New York being the 2 states possibly having to get federal loans to pay for their unemployment comp in the next few weeks, and it gets even worse. Optimism could be bumping into reality in the days ahead.
While the Obama administration is looking to fo full-tilt-boogie on infrastructure projects, it looks like alot of states - like Cali - are stopping theirs dead in their tracks.
Which makes me wonder - is all the infrastructure spending coming from the fed going to do anything more than just exactly replace what the states would have spent anyway?
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I have no ideas, but I wish you well.
How's that Merle Hagard song go? If we make it through December....
Really, I have been blessed with a good life. Don't think I could be happier. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
I was thinking more like Help Me Make it Through the Night! This is a rough time for everyone. DH and I were saying that we are very lucky as we were sitting in front of a fire safe and warm in our home. Your posts have been some of the few that I can honestly say are not mean or venomous. Have a wonderful holiday and stay safe.
Thanks for the kind words. I can get caught up in it as much as anyone though. Kind of crazy how this thread took off. I usually make a post or two with my opinion and let it go.
Like Marley sang; "Mellow mood has got me..." Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.