3 years ago I was hired as a framing sub for a room addition
$9000 job framing only, one story add tied in to 2 story existing
homeowner calls today and says he has a leak where the new gable roof hits the old 2 story wall. ” Experts” looked at it and say it’s my fault.
The general that hired me is out of business, siding guy allegedly says framers fault, and roofer allegedly says the same.
HO wants me out to fix it for no charge ” warranty work “. I said over the phone ” if necessary, are you prepared to pay?”
HO flies off the handle, threatens to take me to court. I say call your general, take him to court ( out of business)
I said I would come look at it, but would also like to see his “experts” written evaluation
Of course my lawyer hasn’t called back yet, I would feel alot better hearing his and your opinions before I go there.
Thanks in advance
Mike
Replies
Do absolutely nothing without the general being there. It is not your responsibility you are a sub. The only person you should be talking to is the person who hired you. If it is your fault then do the right thing and fix it, if not it is not your problem.
The general should not let the homeowner talk to you in the first place only communicate with the general.
If the general is wimping out then stay clear, your lawyer can advise best what to do next.
Was dry in part of your deal or no?
Sounds like the General being out of business is a call for the HO to place the blame on anyone they can to try and get the work done for free.
If your work did not involve dry in, then there is no way that a framer can be blamed for any leak.
Sounds like the roofer didn't get something sealed very well.
Just my humble opinion...
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
three years ago, forget about it, warrenty time over.
I like to think I will go back anytime and take care of previous clients
But when the guy starts off by threatening legal action, there is nowhere to go but down
thanks
Some states you are liable for a long time for latent defects in construction.In Calif. it is 10 years.But that would be the GC or maybe the roofer, but not Mike.
I would visit the site, and first advis ethe HO that I was there to examine the problem, not to accept responsibility or attempt repairs. Then, examine well, and get the HO at your side and explain everythign thast you find. Educate him as to what the problem is and why it's not your fault. Chances are that the other two clowns didn't explain the problem to the HO, they just passed the blame.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Framing problems don't pertain to leaks where old meets new. I'm suspect as to why there are no problems for 3years and all of a suddent there are problems. Sounds as though caulking has failed or something like that. Besides that you were working under another contractor, it's his baby even it's something you, the plumber, painter, paver ect did. Not you. Good luck. Just remember everytime someone points a finger there ar three pointing back at them
Well, as a "general" and someone who has done a lot of framing and a lot of customer service in other fields. I have a couple of things to add:1) Did you sign a waiver of responsibility/indemnification on your contract with the general? Did you have a contract with the general contractor at all? I know that in my contracts with subs I require they sign with me before work starts, I have an indemnification clause that states that they take sole responsibility for their errors. My insurance company demands it. If you signed one of those, likely the other subs did and they should all be called to prove that they are not responsible for the leak. That will probably require a subpeana by your attorney, slow and expensive, but you should get attorney's fees from the guilty upon proving your aren't the guilty party.2) The homeowner is always going to go after the next guy in line, especially when there is a no longer an existant party who is probably to blame. BUT...was the general contractor a corporation or a sole proprietor? Just because he's out of biz doesn't mean he can't be forced in court to take responsibility for flaws that he should have prevented by proper management.3) When dealing with an irate customer, the best bet is to let them holler and vent, they are frustrated, feel trapped and decieved and are going to probably let it out on anyone that was close to the problem. He/she probably knows he's being led around by everyone else and is searching blindly for the truth. Be patient, listen, don't criticize or judge or argue with him/her. Go to their house, look at the problem and suggest that other factors beside your framing are more than likely at play and that you won't leave them hanging, you will help them somehow. Place yourself as their ally.4) I won't go into the carpentry aspects as that was covered pretty well by other posts, I'd just say that I agree that the problem more than likely resides within the siding or roofing. Again though, the general should be found and brought in to take final responsibility barring any indemnifications anyone signed with him/her. If their is one thing I hate is idiot general contractors who can't manage a job, screw everything up and leave the mess for everyone else to fix. Hang him.5) Contact your insurance company. One thing insurance companies are great for is finding every way possible to not pay; albeit that it is not your fault. You pay them, now use them.Hope that helps, good luck.
Must disagree on the calling your insurance company. They keep records and you could find yourself with a big surprise next year when you renew. I don't have much respect for the whole insurance "Game".
I do know that similarly, if you scrape your car and call your broker to ask if they will cover that sort of thing... that is on your permanent record as an ocurrance-even though you didn't make a claim. You had an accident-even if you didn't make a claim.
Time and a place... figuring out how not to pay is a bit pre-mature anyhow. Just leave the insurance out of it for now.
L
He is kinda between a rock and a hard place on that one...........most policies require that you 'promptly' notify them of claims or you may forfeit coverage.
He may have problems if the delay in reporting can be shown to have 'prejudiced' their defense or investigation of the claim against him.
"I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."
Edited 2/1/2005 9:39 pm ET by intrepid_cat
Thing is though cat... there is no claim yet. What the homeowner did was an exploratory. He doesn't understand what was done wrong... otherwise he never would have called the framer in.
When or if (not likely), court papers are filed he has to choose... fight it on his own, or let the insurance company fight it. Either way... acting is pre-mature.
People are inherantly afraid of litigation and often people can get things fixed by simply threatening. It's like negotiation, if you don't do it... you don't profit from it.
Many salesmen and management are trained in negotiation-rarely is it personal, just the profitable thing to do. They will dance around, get noisy then guage the poor saps reaction. If they are a good actor it is often difficult to tell what they are doing. I lost many thousands before I realized what was happening. Altruism is expensive.
L
You are exactly correct about the "prompt notification" clauses of most insurance contracts.
If an insurance company is not brought into a situation in a "timely manner", they can... and do... deny coverage. The concept of "Timely notification" is grey in some states... black and white in others.
A liability carrier should not increase premiums for simply notifying them of a homeowner saying "i'm gonna sue". They will take it into account if they actually have defense costs.
Now... about the whole lemons-lemonade thing. Not in a million years will he be able to turn this one (imnsho). I agree that he will be screwed if he does the work. As an outside 3rd party... I would not do the work without payment-in-full... up front.... and after the check clears.
Pics have been taken of the situation before they hire some other "low-bidder" to mess it up even worse. That is good. He made a good faith effort to see IF there was a problem with the work has been done... that is good. Anything beyond is not justified, nor is it a good idea.
The only way that I would do the repair would be to rip all of the siding off that side of the house and re-do it... including the flashing. Same with the roof on the addition. If I am going to warranty something... it's gonna be MY work that I warranty. If a "repair" was attempted... equivocally, the contractor may be warrantying the other work as well. Not worth it.
The GC messed up by not having all of the work done that was required. If the GC's insurance policy was in effect at the time of the work... the GC's policy is probably still on the hook. Even though the GC is now out of business... is his insurance company? Or.. let me guess... they don't know if he had insurance... nor do they have a copy of a cert?
If there was an archy involved (I doubt it), there could be liability arising from the design around that window.
Was there an inspection done? If so... there could be liability for the city/gov't entity involved.
I have tried and tried to come up with a way that the framer could be responsible in this sitauation... and I can't even come up with a GOOFY idea... let alone one that makes sense. The HO is doing the "scatter-shot" routine in attempting to get it fixed. Anyone who spouts off "I will sue" in their first attempt... already knows they are wrong. If they had a coherent argument... they would make that argument, instead of the ridiculousness of "I will sue".
Notify the insurance company... document EVERY tidbit of information.. and go on with life.
And do NOT try to make lemonade out of lemons when there is a lemonade stand down the street offering lemonade at $.05 a glass... and it is good! The only thing you will end up with, is a glass full of sour and nasty pulp.
Edited 2/2/2005 12:23 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Kinda reminds me of a situation that occured when a friend's car broke down on the highway. She said her son was going to pick it up that afternoon. Tow-away time is usually about two days (before they get to it), but I told her to be safe she ought to call the CHP and tell them she would be picking it up in the afternoon, so not to tow it away. They said "Sure thing, thanks for calling!" Then (naturally) they ran a tow-truck out there the second they hung up the phone, she ended up with an impound bill, and I ended up with egg on my face.
Ahuh... cops, insurance companies-devils of the 2000's. I had $5000 worth of tools stolen a couple of years ago... knew exactly who took them-and he admitted it to the cop. Cops wouldn't even issue a warning to him let alone press charges-so I couldn't collect from the insurance which I paid 13 years for without a claim.
That's the definition of impotency. I just wish they had an IQ test to get on the force.
L
Well, ya are in Canada, I see.
In Texas you would have been told to send him a demand letter and in ten days if no tools were returned the DA would have issued a warrant. Unless he had some evidence that you gave 'em to him.
"I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."
And that's why I have great respect for the USA.
Hey Cat, I am considering making a move to Florida... (too much interest in our products there not to). Do you know much about the contractor business climate inside Florida? I know California is a nightmare...
L
Sorry, Don't know a thing about Fla. except that I really like Daytona Beach at Spring Break time.
You might post a new thread and you'll probably get a lot of responses. There are several here from Fla. They can give you a good idea of the area.
Good luck on the move, if ya decide to make it.
"I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."
Rent that Chris Rock special called "Bigger and Blacker" funniest damn thing I ever saw....one part he does is about insurance....says it should be called "just in case"...you gotta see this thing too funny to write here.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yes, you are correct on that, one angle I didn't consider at that moment when I wrote that. Actually I would be more dilligent to get the homeowner to follow suit on the contractor. THe other fact is that in a situation like this, you have only a couple of choices I see: Fix the problem yourself and therefore, accept the liability as your own, from that point forward (not counting the cost to fix the problem at your expense). Or, wait and see what the homeowner does. If they see a lawyer, they will no doubt drag every party into court. Fact is, whatever happens, your going to have trouble and in that vein I go back to what I said; you do pay insurance for a reason.
I'd be interested in knowing how problem could be something soooo obvious that the siding guy and the roofer are both certain it's your fault, and yet they didn't happen to see it or document it when they were installing their stuff right over your apparently deficient work?!?!?Me thinks the siding guy was just reaching for a scapegoat and the roofer said, "Ummm yeah, what he said!" ...as long as it wasn't them.
I told the HO on the phone " sure, it would be real easy for me to come there and blame someone else too".
Man, that guy was fumin'. I threatened to hang up if he didn't calm down
Ugghh
Mike is the original poster :)James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
You been here long enough to know that if you click that button before you remember to change the name, there's no turning back. And I've been here long enough to shout, "I've been Prospero'ed!"
Did you do any of the housewrap, flashing, siding or roofing?
If not, you know that the framing you did is on the bottom of the pile and was covered up and tied into the existing structure with wrap, flashing, siding and roofing. The job of the wrap, flashing, siding and roofing is to keep the elements OFF of your framing and the rest of the stuff on the inside. Your framing does not provide that function - unless you did such a sloppy job that the framing caused a failure (by pulling away) of the covering elements.
Do you have the expertise to evaluate other trades work? I wouldn't go to see the job before your lawyer looked over the situation. On another thread several said that if you TOUCH something you now own the whole job.
housewrap yes.
felt paper, roofing, flashing, siding ,NO
I'm feeling better already
thanks breaktimers
mike
Mike, you are missing a great opportunity to turn lemons into lemonade.
You should immediately have offered to go out and check to make sure your framing hasn't pulled apart. When you got there, you would determine that it was a roofing/flashing problem and offer your signed affidavit as an expert witness. Then offer to do the repairs if the homeowner can't track down the roofer.
The most important thing about this is that you would be the only contractor of the three responsible enough to show up and at least attempt to honor your warranty. That means when the homeowner tells his story to every person he comes in contact with...you'd be the good guy!
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Ordinarily, that would be standard procedure.
But, I was the last guy on the call list, and he was already into this for a few months before he got to me.
I'll bend WAY over backwards for my clients, It's the way he started off that made me cautiously ask where he stood as far as payment expectations.
Mike
Just keep remembering that you were an "employee" of the general when you did the work. His job, beyond hiring you on to do the work is to inspect it afterwards and put a warrenty against it.
Lots of good answers already. It sounds very unlikely that you are responsible. The roofers needed to handle the roof-to-wall flashing... never seen a framer do that. I'm guessing they didn't want to remove the siding on the existing and tie in correctly.
Blue is correct that you can turn this into a marketing opportunity. It is likely that the HO will pay someone to make a repair... could be you if you want it.
Let him call his lawyer.................give him the dime for that matter!
Empty threats................may as well go piss in the wind!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
mike... i always go see what's up on the job site..
sometimes it gives them time to cool off..
maintain your cool... most situations actually resolve themselves....
those that don't .. well.. you might be ready to find out why every contract we sign has an Arbitration Clause in itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'd go take qa good look too, for the entertainment value if nothing else, and to take a camera along. It could be my only chance to document things as they exist before they get screwed up different and end up in court ...I've always taken Blue's advice too on the attitude of using it as a marketing opportunuity, but when the HOs are already breathing fire due to whatever run-around others have given them, getting them cooled down is the best i would hope for on a visit like this one...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A lot of good responses, and some very foolish ones too. Being a sub DOES NOT mean that you have no liability for latent defects. But, that doesn't make you responsible for someone else's work either. While the general is liable for everyone's work, the sub is only liable for his own.
As for the HO getting pissed and shooting off, consider that he's spent a lot of money on the addition, has a problem, the GCs in the wind and everyone else he's spoken with is pointing at you. How would you feel about it when you ask him if he wants to pay again for the work already done? And it makes perfect sense that he called the roofer and sider first, because they are the more likely culprits, and they are the ones who fingered you.
While it seems highly unlikely that you could be responsible for the leak, you do yourself no favor copping an attitude back at the guy. He's got a problem, and the only thing he did was pay pros to build for him. Talk to your lawyer. Go see the problem. Do NOT talk about money. And give the HO your assessment of your work and the problem. If you were wrong, then fix it. If you weren't, then tell him the truth. And remember the names of the other trades who fingered you, without even the courtesy of a phone call to give you the heads up.
SHG
SHGLAW has it right.Make an appointment with the HO to take a look and assess the situation. As you always do, behave in a calm and professional manner. Be polite.When you get there, if the HO is aggitated, calm him down - not with threats of leaving or dealing with lawyers, but with clearity, maturity and reason. Explain how you are responding to his concerns and he has no reason to use an uncivilized tone with you.Look at the job and be sure you take photos. Be sure he sees you taking photos. As long as he knows you have documentation, he has less opportunity to pass the buck.If everything proceeds with civility, explain to him your assessment. Do not put anything down in writing unless he hires you to. Your assessment has a value and that was not covered in the original agreement. You do not need to expose yourself further by documenting your innocence. Keep your transactions clear, separated and distinct. Before, you were working for the GC; now you are/ maybe working for him.If he raises his voice to you or threatens you, regardless of his frustrations, be polite and walk away. Otherwise, this will blow-up in your face. Threats and irate behavior are not good coping mechanisms or conflict resolution tools. Nothing good will come of them. You can turn this around, but it won't be easy. You don't know the circumstances of his negotiation with the GC. The GC may have recommended that the house face in question should have been resided and the HO didn't want to pay the extra. You don't know why work did or didn't get done. If he maintains a grudge or a feeling of being a victim, you may never get your final payment. Have you called the GC for an "off the record" chat. It might prove interesting.F
I'm with you. Settle it like it should be settled. Best response so far.
Err. I'll get you a milk bone or something from the prize closet.Who Dares Wins.
Funny you should bring this up. Just last week I got a similar threat. The roof was leaking on a house that I sold the roof trusses for. The GC threatened to sue us (The truss supplier) because we should have known one particular valley on this house would leak. And we should have informed him BEFORE we built the trusses.
The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing. [Jean Baptiste Colbert]
"The GC threatened to sue us (The truss supplier) because we should have known one particular valley on this house would leak."that sounds reasonable.:)
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
What, did you forget to tell them that the trusses needed to be sheathed, covered in felt/ice& water shield, then shingled? Shame on you.
"did you forget to tell them that the trusses needed to be sheathed, covered in felt/ice& water shield, then shingled?"
Actually, I'm supposed to go look at the house later today. I'll start another thread and post some pics when I have time.
A great leader must be an educator, bridging the gap between the vision and the familiar. But he must also be willing to walk alone to enable his society to follow the path he has selected. [Henry Kissinger]
Boss, By some chance - was that valley you heard about one with two different pitches coming down together?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don't know what exactly you're referring to. But I just started a thread here:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=53335.1
Yesterday I was arrested for scalping low numbers at the deli. I sold a #3 for 20 bucks.
heres a couple of the pix from yesterday
not to tough to see why this is a problem
Dang framers.. ha
mike
"Dang framers.. ha"Of course it is the framer's fault.Who put the roof that close to the window <G>?
that's what I thought... musta been interesting to flash that window right..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 1/28/2005 11:06 pm ET by IMERC
Aha! See that coaxial wire loosely hanging there? Why obviously, it's the cable guy's fault!
that's funny ...
that was my very first thot!
damn cable guys ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Mike,
Here's what they shoulda done, IMO;
First cut the siding back so's there's an inch clearance 'tween it and the roofing. Everytime the siding touches the roof there is a funnel to the backside of the siding. Second, make sure that window is really flashed and waterproofed/caulked good. MAke sure that wall flashing there is tall enough. Last, make a piece of flashing such that it has a diverter sticking out a couple inches above the window to channel water away from that corner.
There's gonna be the same problem down by the downspout. Can it be raised an inch?
SamT
Mike,I'm just curious as to why you framed the roof so close to the bottom of the window. I would never do that even if the plans say so because it' a leak waiting to happen. If it works out that way with the pitch that's on the plans I would tell the GC that either we lower the pitch so that the top of the roof is about 6" below the bottom of the window for proper flashing or they have to move the window over.I just noticed that the window can't be moved over to much but it could've been moved up or a smaller one put in but in situations like that that are worse and you can't move the window or it's an egress window you have to put a window well in but this has to be discussed by me the framer and the GC or Architect before you frame it.Joe Carola
Edited 1/29/2005 11:33 am ET by Framer
I agree with Joe that this should have been pointed out by Mike to the original GC and the owner. This waterproofing could not be done correctly with anything off the shelf... at minimum I would want a copper window pan soldered to a copper roof-to-wall flashing, and even then...
Mike could also have stripped a lot more original siding than he did... force the siders to make a repair. Sometimes a clean demo cut is the worst thing you can do, since it lets other trades gloss over the repair they need to do.
Joe, that pitch is steep enough that careful detailing by a competant roofer can make sure that it doesn't leak. Design does crowd it but no need for extreme measures on that account, IMO.if I had been framing and were concerned about it, I would look for a way to deal with it in wall height or HAP cuts to gain an inch or two because the pitch matches the rest of the house to be visually pleasing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"You" can get away with saying that here....lol....I thought the same thing but I shut up.I sort of did the same thing on a master bed window here....not quite that bad but I sealed everything up real good with no issues. I'm probably 4-6" up from the corner of the Marvin to the cedar roof.
I wanted the biggest window I could get but was aware of the problems that might happen so I dealt with it before I sided and roofed everything.
I cut my own step flashing bigger than the ones I bought from the lumber yard . USed those about two feet from the start of the bottom window corner to the eaves.
I even used tubes of Karnak and strips of that tar impregnated membrane under the shingles on the roof and the sidewall....no biggie.I also agree with whom ever said mike should have cut the siding up way further but I do understand his intentions....It'd have been a bidtch to replace the panels from the bottom up not that I haven't ever done that before. Not that bigga bidth really.Anyway...you came through as usual.
Be well bro....
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
In this pic you can see a pencil mark from 3 years ago.
View Image
That was the location of the roof per plan. I discussed with the GC and HE decided to drop plate height and HAP. He didn't want to change pitch because the trapezoid windows were already ordered.
The interior is all cabinets along the bearing wall, so we were careful with interior heights to insure the cabinets would go in
mike
What size rafters did you use?Joe Carola
I would have to pull the plans to be sure, but probably 2x10's
We had a double micro structural ridge, and used the wide stock for insulation purposes as it is a full cathedral
mike
You at least brought it all to his attention before hand and made the necessary adjustments. A lot of Framers around here wouldn't even do that they would just say I followed the plans and could care less about windows, cabinet heights, soffit lines or even dropping the plate line or H.A.P. cut. We can get away with 2x8 minimum around here for cathedral ceilings some places you can't. For me if I had the plans knowinf that we can use 2x8's I would've called the architect and asked if it was ok to change the plans to 2x8 so that would give another 2" drop down from the bottom of the window and once he said it was ok if he wanted thicker insulation I would've furred the bottom of the rafters down but making sure it was good with the cabinets as you said. There's only so much you can do as the Framer but we can discuss the situation with the GC, Sider and Roofer to see what the best solution is and once that's done it's up to them to flash it properly even if it takes ripping off more siding or even taking the window out and putting a piece of copper over the entire sill and setting the window on top of it.Joe Carola
"In this pic you can see a pencil mark from 3 years ago."
I noticed that the first time I saw the pic. Kinda cool. You can tell its pencil too.
Tim Mooney
Why was a piece of "J" mold not used to finish the ends of the siding cut on the roof slope?
my a**hole answer to that would be " ask the siding guy "
seriously though. I never intended my siding cut to be the finished product, I was just clearing the way for our framing
Seems now that everyone else after me ASSUMED the siding was complete
next time, tear the siding off 2 feet up from the top of the ridge, leaves no doubts about what needs to be done
mike
I understood the siding wasn't your responsibility, I was asking more about siding practices and techniques in your area. Trades people do things so differently from region to region I was thinking a "J" mold wasn't used because that is your areas particular practice. Regards, DWT
I think that a j channel leaves a more finished or neater apperance, but is not necessary for any sort of weather protection
mike
Chin up lad, there is little joy to be had doing inspections.
I could tell you about the cedar roof I inspected where they did everything wrong in the book. We didn't get the repair work either and the homeowner doesn't like the messenger when it's bad news.
There is a time to act and a time to react to other's actions.
Your activity has to be centered on making money. If the homeowner wants to cast blame and perfect it with a law suit (tough case for him to win blaming you for other's deficiencies-not likely), then you bring a countersuit and go after all your costs involved, which is why you document everything.
If he brings the law suit, then you ask for a chance to take in your own experts to investigate all the causes of the leak and document-and when it's not your fault the homeowner reimburses for all your costs-as well as legals.
My advice, do nothing until you have to. Simply forget about it, have a better day tomorrow and enjoy every single day of your life.
In the future... be careful who you agree to work for. It's just not worth doing work where they are working with low bidders.
Best,
L
Chin up lad, there is little joy to be had doing inspections
LOL, yup.
the homeowner doesn't like the messenger when it's bad news.
LOL , yup.
In my inspecting experience no one gets happy after they have been p!ssed. The best cope and deal with it , but they just arent happy campers. Its a raw wound that doesnt heal quickly.
Better for him to move on.
Tim Mooney
You should have cut all the way up to the pencil mark, at least.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
couln't have ...
the corner of the window wouldn't fit right..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I should have added the words, "the trim".If he'd cut the trim higher, they would have had to replace it. And they MIGHT have done a better job of it.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
OK so call me an idiot...its been said before but what does
"proud member of the FOR/FOS club..." mean? Am I the first to ask or are you all conspiring behind my back?
Is there a secret handshake as well?
I mean
BE well
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
For ornery rebels/when/freakin' on shid.
you were asleep at thae wheel again Andy...
and there's a great hand shake and everything...
find the whole story in the xmas vacation thread...
I'll find the link..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
course I'm a asleep at the wheel....I have Fleabait driven : )~The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
here ya go....
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=52142.1
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
"next time, tear the siding off 2 feet up from the top of the ridge, leaves no doubts about what needs to be done"
then right before the GC goes outta biz you'll get a backcharge notice in the mail for demo above and beyond the scope!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
MAybe mike should have put a BIG piece of oaktag on the siding that said "kick me (if no one takes care of the siding)".
In all fairness, if I were the sider I wouldn't think that was my job if it wasn't in my contract....and the roofer as well....It was totallyyyyyy the GC's fault IMHO.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"next time, tear the siding off 2 feet up from the top of the ridge, leaves no doubts about what needs to be done" "then right before the GC goes outta biz you'll get a backcharge notice in the mail for demo above and beyond the scope!"Funny - took the words right outta my mouth!
I have to agree to some extent with Framers reply.....although on a legal basisa it's the GCs liability, I would have probably insisted on removing enough siding to run my tar paper a foot up the sidewall just to cover myself during construction....and at that point the siding's already loose & the roofer & sider might have been more likely to do their jobs right.....that said, the GC still owns it & the ho is probably too pissed off to deal with...unless he puts money in escrow with a trusted third party to pay you to fix it, don't touch it....
As SG says, I think you've got enough suggestions to ride through this little drama. As someone else mentioned, if you turn this negative into a positive, that 'should' be good for business.
Also as SG mentioned, this whole thing has probably been a MAJOR headache for HO. Calling people and not getting call back... "oh we're not in business any more".. "oh, that is Joe Blow's problem"... On and on. Passing the buck, pissing off the HO, wasting his/her time and meanwhile the leak happily leaks away. Makes for a powder keg stress situation for the HO.
But whether you repair the damage for free or for fee, make sure you get EVERYTHING in writing. You don't want this joker coming back every 6 month trying to milk you for free work.
So give the HO the benefit of the doubt, but cover your a$$ while doing so.jt8
The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Great idea, blue!I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Unless there has been some horrendous shifting or settling, which would most likely be a foundation problem, I don't see how this could be a framing problem. I would go see the problem just out of curiosity. If it is not pretty clear that it is not your fault, I wouldn't do anything, including involving your attorney. These people will not take you to court for a leak until they have exhausted all the other possibilities, like maybe the roofer? They are hoping you will be intimidated. Don't be. When you visit them, be polite. calm, and use this as an opportunity to look good. They may have been getting the runaround from everybody else. If they are not just cheap, they may be willing to pay quite well to get the problem fixed. Just don't do it because of a threat.
Mike,
I would still go look. Not sure about Illinois but everywhere I ahve ever worked if you cover up the work of the guy before you and there is something wrong with it, it's on you now. If it's your fault why did the (alleged) roofer cover it up?
Get ahold of your lawyer to get a heads up from him/her, but also go take a look and see what all the hubbub is about. I'd be curious enough to want to see it. Take your digital camera with you to document the problem. It sometimes takes a few tries, but I find my camera is able to see some things better than I am. Especially if you're sticking it through a hole or up some narrow area.
But if the guy starts screaming lawyers at me when I get there, then I'd probably give him the name of my lawyer and wish him luck... reminding him that when he LOSES I'm gonna file a counter suit (if possible) sticking HIM with my legal fees... or choice "B" he can pay you to make the repair and the lawyers don't need to get involved.
I don't see how this can be your problem?? Any mistake a framer made should have been adjusted for by the siding guy & roofer.
But that is just the opinion of a half-rate 'muddler. Worth what you paid for it ;)
jt8
The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Mike,
Several things to consider, I have been in this same position before.
1. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING - I don' mean to yell but I cannot say this enough. Without recording what is going on you will look bad in court, ie write down what time and date you talked to the client and what you talked about, keep all your ducks in a row, I would highly suggest going out and taking pictures of the problem, making an evaluation and correspond with the client through written documents.
2. Stay professional, you are a professional, keep it that way. Dont drop to the level of threats, it will only make you look bad in court, don't bad mouth other trades. If they did their work wrong, simple write it down and give a report to the homeowner. Keep your reports reasonable, unless you can personally defend it in court dont write it down.
3. If the defect doesnt involve your framing, give a report, dont offer to fix anything unless you have a signed contract stating what you are doing, how much and terms of the contract. This by all means is the generals problem, you are the last person on this guys list, I would venture to say that you are the "scape goat". Waterproofing a roof is a roofers job, waterproofing walls is the siding/stucco/mason/painters jobs. I dont understand how a framer would ever be responsibe for waterproofing.
4. Get a seccond opnion, I allways do this when lawyers or court is threatened, this is for one and one thing only, to cover my own butt. The reason is simple, by the time this gets to court or even probate the problem is ususally fixed, so for anyone to call in "expert" witnesses is very hard, the best you can do is try to explain the problem from pictures, not an easy thing to do. Having someone else that actually saw the problem in person is worth a golden goose. Remember in this case your homeowner would have the Roofer, the siding guy and who ever fixes the repair on their side. Dont be the only one on your side. When picking these people make sure the are professionals in the daily business of framing, dont pick those who are not qualified.
I hope this helps you some, I have been in some very ugly situations. If this is your fault by all means go fix the problem, I have gone back 8 years later to fix a crack in drywall or clean a handrail because the client doesnt like it, and gotten referrals for 100k plus jobs because of it, as a contractor you have two things going for you, your skill, and your reputation, damage either and your pocket book will suffer.
Hope everything goes well
Nick Kruger
Marigold Homes LLC
Fort Lupton, CO
Mike,
1) remember---the homeowner is not your client---the GC was your client-----don't forget that.
2) Regaurdless of Blues suggestion about turning lemons into lemonade--------this guy doesn't really sound like the sort of person I would want as a customer---he is a headache waiting to expand.
3) Don't let other people make THEIR problems YOUR problem.
4) I would go look at the situation---but I would prefer to do it WITHOUT the homeowner being there at the time----much to likely to turn into a pissing match.
Remember he was upset LONG before he ever contacted you
5) Take a lot of pictures.
6) It is possible that it IS partially your fault---if YOU designed the tie-in you may have created a nightmare. Read the thread here about copper work in blind valleys as a related example.
7) In the extreme case- imagining that you DID create a nightmarish situation ( unlikely---but possible)
the roofer and or sider is STILL the person whose job it was to create a waterproof solution to your possible framing nightmare. ( I am speaking as a roofing contractor by the way)
8) If the roofing and siding guys couldn't handle the situation at the time---- they should have turned down the job at the time.
Best luck to ya,
Stephen
Went to meet HO today
Prepared by bringing my original contracts, digital camera, lawyers phone number( just in case ), and a positive attitude.
Started politely, inspected interior to see damaged area about 1.5 s.f. just inside the wall plate
Went outside, up on the roof with camera in hand. Nice sunny day clean clear roof, took lots of pix
When I originally framed the job, I cut the Vinyl siding out about 1" above where the rafters were to hit the wall, instead of just tearing it to bits. Then just framed and sheathed as usual
Roofers came and slipped baby tins ( step flashing ) under the cut, and applied asphalt shingles
Siding guys? Didn't touch the wall as far as I can tell. My original pencil marks for the siding cut are still there. They did the 3 walls of the addition, and stepped back into the original wall on the flush side. but never did anything above the roof
I explained all of this cleary to the HO to which he replies:
" Doesn't it only make sense that if you cut the siding, you put it back the way it should be?"
Trying to be as understanding as possible, I say No, siding was not part of our contract. Contract reads; Demolition of existing siding as needed, Rough frame per plan.. etc etc.. nothing more about siding yes or no
HO says it's implied that if I cut it, I fix it. He starts to get agitated, Raises voice, on and on about splitting hairs, why doesn't anyone want to stand behind their work... Then storms off.
Sorry this is so long
I gather my things and head to the truck where he meets me again saying I'm screwing him. I again calmly say I feel sorry for you but, when my portion of the job was 100% complete, the job was not weather proof. It's up to siding and roofing, overseen by general to do that.
He says he paid so much for this addition, it's not right and he's still paying for it
I relate a story about the 3 year old house I bought and all the work I have to do it, It's just part of homeownership.
I left by saying I would be happy to help remedy the problem, Just not for free.
He said he would talk to his wife, and an attorney.
We'll see what happens.
Thank you to all for your speedy, and quality responses
Mike
Here is a pic after completion in 2002
Mike
Mikle,
That's a really nice arrow.
SamT
what arrow was that..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Well, who the hell put that arrow there ?It's that damn arrow that's causing all this.. I'm tellin' ya !!;)Mike, I wouldn't touch this repair work with someone else's ten foot pole. Paid or not...Like Jeff said, in this guy's head, a contractor ripped him off. Now he'll be looking to rip a contractor off. I wouldn't want to be that contractor.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
$9000.00 for framing that small addition?
Wow.What the HECK was I thinking?
After pulling my original contract, I was reminded that it was a $4500 framing contract. Of which the GC bounced my first payment of $4000. Then failed to ever pay me for the balance of $500
What a schmuck
by what you said in this post you can see how the GC is shaping up...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Do you think the water is running down the wall and behind the step flashing? Or is the flashing improperly applied? I'm trying to figure out what caused a leak now that wasn't apparent before.With regard to your situation I think you handled it well. Have you contacted the GC yet?
Jon Blakemore
It certainly appears as though water is creeping horizontily along the vinyl siding, which touches the shingles at several locations, then behind the flashing.
The bottom two peices of siding appeared loose, and the flanges were not connected to each other or the wall. I'm assuming expansion and contraction of the vinyl has separated them from each other.
The GC is out of business, the HO told me he now works at home depot ;)
mike
"The GC is out of business, the HO told me he now works at home depot ;)"If he was not incorporated the fact that he is no longer working as a GC does not limit an liability that he might have.
bullseye..............maybeI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
That's true, but liability doesn't help any if he has no reachable assets.
Based on what I've read this far, and on Mike's description, I think the window sill so close is a tender spot, requiring careful detailing that apparantly neither the roofer or sider cared to touch. has nothing whatsoever to do with Mike's work framing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The window is definitely a bad spot, as well as where the corner channel hits the roof.
the smallest piece of siding is totally loose, so I would say that's the main culprit at this point
So how is this 1" reveal you gave the reason for the leak?? This sounds like a flashing problem. We usually try hold our siding at least 3/4" above any roof line, dont want your siding sitting down in the water flow gathering water when it rains.
Tell the homeowner to contact the guy that did the foundation, its probably his fault, we all know how concrete wicks moisture:)!!!
Its to bad for the homeowner but it sure doesnt seem to be your fault.
-m2akita
I was only pointing out that I cut the siding neatly where the roof would tie in, but never intended for it to be the finished product.
Had I been the the general, I would have asked the siding guys to pull the siding at the roof line and seal the step flashing to the wall at least 12" above roof deck.
I should have just ripped all the siding off that side, and let them re do the 2 story gable. thats what I get for trying to do things neatly ( not an admission of guilt )
mike
I would think that the minute you touch it that you become responsible and who knows what else might be wrong.
The general now works at Home Depot??? I think that pretty much says it all.
Even though he's out of biz I don't think that gets him off the hook unless he was incorporated unless it was malicious which I doubt.
I believe in your situation the general is responsible unless you did something you shouldn't have which I also doubt.You did the right thing by going there and taking photos to document your work.
Tell the HO to go up there and shoot some Karnak in there from tubes(easy)in his caulking gun.
That stuff can do miracles.I'd just let it ride for now and see what develops.
Lets us know.
Be well
####The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
After seeing the pic, I'm now more convinced than ever that this is an opportunity, not a "problem".
When I hear a person say "water damage", a huge bell rings in my head. This is an insurance claim...and it may very well be a nice profitable one. I'm thinking....$2500 minimum...maybe as much as $10k depending on how involved the interior repair is.
The fact that the homeowner is irate is not really that important. Very few homeowners are happy when they've developed a leak, in a new addition and the first few people that they talk to are not able to help them. It's human nature...and if you're in the remodeling business, you probably deal with frustrated people on a regular basis.
If I was interested in helping solve this problem, I'd have offered my professional opinion (I think the flashing is improperly done, especially at the window) and I'd offer to bring in the best roofer in town to offer his professional expertise. I'd also offer to bring in the building inpsector. I'd offer to bring in an expert siding contractor to carefully remove the siding, then find the source of the leak, doing leak tests. I would GUARANTEE THAT I WOULD STOP THAT LEAK, AND REPAIR ALL THE DAMAGE INSIDE AND OUT, AND HELP HIM STOP THE POTENTIAL DANGERS THAT ARE/WILL OCCUR DUE TO MOLD IMMEDIATELY.
This guy has a problem and he needs help...he doesn't need attitudes.
Sonny would make good money off this project.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
in 16 years and thousands of customers I have NEVER had a customer who was HAPPY to see me. They have all been angry and upset to a certain extent when I come in contact with them.
They are upset about the SITUATION-----nobody really wants to spend money on a roof---so on some level they are pissed at their predicament.
this doesn't really phase me because I am a heartless , oportunistic,mercenary prik LOL
HOWEVER
in mikes case the situation is different---the homeowner is pissed at HIM.
I can make lemonade also---but this situation looks more like vinegar as the likely product.
Having seen the picture I am 99.99999999999999% sure it is the roofer or the siders fault.
I would probably take the sider out of the picture if his contract didn't call for work in that area. How is he responsible for work he wasn't contracted to do.
And I might even take the roofer off the hook----if it's the siding thats leaking.
Really and entirely the GC fault for NOT putting all components of the project together properly.
I don't see how it is even REMOTELY the framers fault.
Stephen
Stephen, it isn't the framers fault and as soon as the parade of experts get done with their investigation and do the repair, then the homeowner will know that too.
In the meantime, some contractor somewhere has to step in and do an insurance repair...carpeting, painting, wallpapering, cleaning up hazardous pathogens, replacing insulation, drywall, roof sheathing...maybe some structural roof members......
This is a remodelers ticket to a Carnival Cruise....it mght as well be Mike's!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"In the meantime, some contractor somewhere has to step in and do an insurance repair.."WHAT INSURANCE REPAIR?What event happened that would be covered by HO's insurance?
Bill, that leak in the roof is an insurance repair. They are very profitable repairs too!
blue Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Most HO insurance will pay for damages from unexpected sudden events.A water pipe that bust, but they won't pay for repairing the actual water pipe repair.They will pay for the water damage from a storm after a tree goes through the roof.They will not pay for damage for "slow leaks" such as leaky roof, leaking pipes, or bad flashing.
Blue
I think I made more money on insurance work than anything so I know what you mean.
If you know what youre doing you can charge a pretty penny cause you need to be a true house doctor.Water leaks through roofs were my speciality.The ins estimates I always charged for after finally figuring out in my early years that the HO's were ripping me off.
Telling me they didnt care what it cost as long as it was done right...BUT....they needed a written estimate.
They passed that onto the Ins Co....and used the cheapest guy....heyyyy, I was in my early 20's so what did I know.In mikes case though, I wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole....almost seems like he'd be admitting the problem was his fault and he might even get stiffed in the end.There's plenty of other work out there.
BE well Blue
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You gotta get off the insurance repair kick. First, this won't be covered. Second, even if it was, the HO isn't going to want to make a claim because it will cause his premiums to increase, or the carrier to drop him for making a claim. Whoever designed this addition, with the window damn near sitting on the roof, was a moron. The sider and roofer may have been able to help, but likely nobody wanted to take ownership of this problem. The HO is in blame mode, and has a pretty good reason to be, though he's misdirecting his anger toward Mike.
If Mike could turn this around, he'd make a friend for life. But it's almost impossible to turn this lemon into lemonaid unless he wants to eat this work, and there's just no reason why he should. Sometimes the answer is just "no". This whole job sounds like a disaster all around, and Mike doesn't want to be the caboose on this train. About the only thing I can think of that Mike might have done is told somebody when he was framing that the design was flawed and while he'll frame it, there will be problems with that stupid window location no matter what is done.
SHG
This one looks great compared to this one ;
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=53335.21
Tim Mooney
Shg, your insurance laws must be different because I've sold many insurance repairs just like this and I've collected on one.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
In our area, depending on the insurance company, this may be considered a covered loss.
If a savvy adjuster came out and asked all of the right questions, he/she might deny the claim due to contractor negligence / poor quality workmanship. carpenter in transition
the key words in a HO 4 insurance contract are "sudden and catastrophic" loss. Leaking over time causing damage is not a sudden loss.
blue,
this might be a pretty nice little situation to step into for YOU, or for ME, or for Andy C, or just about anybody NOT previously connected with the project.
Mike however IS previously connected with the project----so there is no likely way he does any additional work on this thing and comes away smelling clean.
Speaking for myself personally---if called in ---- having no previous contact with homeowner----I would be leary of stepping in the middle of someone elses mess-------and as soon as the homeowner revealled his litigous nature-----I would decline.
To paraphrase Andy C----" be not interested"---LOL
BTW Mike---don't ya wish now ya could slap a mechanics lean on the homeowners house for the $500 the GC owes ya---just for fun?????? Too late now---but a guy can dream.
Best wishes, Stephen
as roiled as the HO is and as easy as it shows...
walk away....
this HO wants to get even with somebody.. at any cost..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I dont think I would want to hang around this HOs house either working and expecting any money.
I would follow up and go to the job site though.
He doesnt have any obligation to this man . Tell the HO to go get the GC . It doesnt matter whether hes in business now or not as long as hes alive. Homeowner needs to sue him not a sub . How silly.
Tim Mooney
If he calls back for an estimate to repair. I'm just going to say I'm Not interested.
Period.
b e tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo busy instead....
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
blue,
could very well be an insurance claim.
which could be followed by a subrogation claim against the GC and his subs by the homeowner's insurance company.
these are murky waters
If I were in Mike's shoes, I don't think I would be looking to be the hero by offering my services as the repair contractor on his insurance claim.
if there is resulting damage from the leak, then the HO has an insurance claim but the root of the problem is the flashing and the carrier isn't going to pay to fix that and the HO doesn't want to pay for it either.
don't know how bad the damage is, but if it is small, you don't really want to be making water damage insurance claims on your policy. homeowner's insurance is quickly becoming like auto insurance. we all have a file.
we could keep one employee busy 24/7/365 fixing all of the outside corner and simple step flashings that the shinglers can't seem to get right.
carpenter in transition
The HO needs to check his insurance policy, but seriously doubt if there is any coverage.Typically they only cover water damage caused by sudden unexpected events.a bad connection under the sink that allows water to drip for years and rots on the bottom of the cabinet and then the sub-floor and joist and it is not noticed until the floor start saging the insurance company will not pay a penny.However if the pipe broked and floolded the house. Then they would pay for all of the damage that the water caused. But they won't pay to fix the pipe.
Hey GOTim,
There's a way that leak could have been dealt with sooner.
be thinkin'
roar!
That was my first idea after leaving there
But the more I think about it today, I forsee doing the work then getting stiffed on the payment
Karnak?
isn't that a johnny carson bit?
I agre with U.
I don't want everyone for a friend ...
I don't want everyone for a customer.
the guy is out to get his money back one way or another ... so even if he "pays for a repair" ... he's still looking to screw back a contractor as he was screwed by a contractor.
I'd go .. look .. point out how I wasn't wrong ... then never have plans to be back.
I'm wondering if this addition had a framing inspection?
That'd be something else on the framers side ...
saw the pics ... bet it leaking where there's no place to flash that low right wondow corner. Bad design. Maybe room for some self stick if that wall was stripped back ...
Also wondering how much damage there is ... sounds like alot of boiling blood for $500 ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
If the siding pieces are taken off, I suspect that the step flashing is substandard at best, especially as Jeff mentioned, around the lower right corner of the second story window. It's probably entering there and running down.
"saw the pics ... bet it leaking where there's no place to flash that low right wondow corner. Bad design. Maybe room for some self stick if that wall was stripped back ..."
Maybe a roofer without a "not my job attitude".
First, do talk to your lawyer and find out what the rules are in your jurisdiction, and what sort of on-going responsibility you have.
Assuming your lawyer agrees, go to the site with some knowledgeable third person and cameras. Find out what the problem is and start to figure out whether you had anything arguably to do with it (never mind "its what the general told me to do . . .". He'll throw you under the bus in a heartbeat.) and how awful the situation is. It may have been a 9000 job for you but could be a $50K problem for the HO. You need to know the magnitude of the problem, and the extent to which it can be pinned on what you did, before you can know how serious a defense you have to be ready to mount.
If no more of the siding came off than needed for you to frame then there is no way that bottom corner ever got flashed properly. Thats the siders responsibility and ultimately the GC's.
I would'nt enter into a new business arraingement with this guy, You'll never get paid
I think everyone is in agreement that this is not your responsibility and is of course ultimately the GC's. He's the one who has to tie all these things togethter making sure no details slip past. Next in line would be the roofer. Is he not responsible for flashing? Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about these "little" details. This scenario would be a good one for the "So you wanna be a contractor" book that I'm mentally drafting. Its also a good argument against using a contractor that subs out work for a project this small.
Was there a framing inspection? If so, see if you can get the inspectors sign-off from the building department. If you get it, keep it in a safe place. - lol
Walk (run!) away from this one. You do not have responsibility. The lawyer will just add another layer of cost to the problem.
Mike, I'm sure you spared some details but you said...
HO wants me out to fix it for no charge " warranty work ". I said over the phone " if necessary, are you prepared to pay?"
HO flies off the handle, threatens to take me to court. I say call your general, take him to court ( out of business)
The guy may indeed be a jerk but with a question like that he might have hit the end of his rope. We're all so scared of lawsuits that we check with our attorney before we use the bathroom these days. I'd go w/the other guys here and say just check it out and see what it looks like. If indeed you determine that it's not your fault (and you may even want to take a digital camera with you to snap a few pics...just in case), take the HO up there and show him why it's not your fault.
- Rob
You've been given a ton of good information here, Mike. I can only chime in and say that it was the GC's responsibility to make sure that the roof was properly flashed, whether he had the siding guys or the roofers do it, and he failed in his rsponsibility. He's the one the HO should be going after. Whether he is out of business or not doesn't matter. We all know it wasn't your fault, and the siding guys and roofers can point fingers at whoever they want, it is still the GC's problem.
Edited 2/2/2005 9:34 am ET by Allen
Any new developments with this situation?
So far, nothing.
Based on all the replies here ( I'm still surprised how many) and my looking back on it all, It looks as though he was checking names off the hit list, using some threats to try and get some free work.
Most people I work for end up calling back for extras or minor repairs over the years, And I will happily visit with them and take care of whatever they need done,
My generosity has been taken advantage of in the past, So with this particular client I was careful to feel him out after that first call, When he started talking lawyers my first reaction was to recoil and prepare for the worst.
I believe anything I do at his location at this point would be a losing situation for me.
I'll be keeping my distance
mike
"I'll be keeping my distance."
Sounds like a good plan!