This came up off-topic in another post…
I have a hard time dense-packing cellulose very quickly, and am wondering if I’m slow, or if it’s just a slow process. Using regalwall insulmesh and a force2 blower, I have a hard time packing in more than about 40 bags a day. Seems there are always tricky spots and things that slow me down, and whenever I try to up the feed rate, I can’t get as good a pack and have more clogs.
So how fast are you able to dense-pack? And what kind of density are you able to achieve?
Steve
Edited 3/3/2008 12:09 am by mmoogie
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What size hose are you using?
I was able to blow 100+ bags a day with a Force 3 machine through 3" hose and achieve better than 3 lbs/cf density in a closed wall (double frame, 12" thick).
With 2" hose and 150' feet from the blower, the blow rate was somewhat less.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Hi Robert,I've tried all manner of size for hoses over the years, as small an an inch, as fat at 2 1/2". I found the best balance between speed and density to be to reduce down to about 1 1/2" I generally am working in 2x6 walls, sometimes rough-cut 2x4 on older structures. I use black poly tubing in order to be able to snake it up and down the bays. I usually play with the blast gate till I'm getting clogs, then back off a bit.If I've got access to the end of a long cavity, like through the fascia into rafter bays, I like 1 1/2" or 2" PVC.If I have no access from the end of the cavity, I poke a hole through the mesh about mid-wall height, then snake up first, backing out as the machine stalls, poking and prodding with the tube as I back out to get higher density. When I've backed out, I turn the hose around, snake to the bottom of the cavity through the same hole, and back out again. This time I was able to achieve better than 4 lbs a cubic foot. Usually it's closer to 3 or 3.5. I'm glad for the higher density. Just wishing I could speed it up. I"ve used the 2" metal wand that Regal sells with their mesh, it fills faster, but densities were down close to 3 lbs/cu ft, which is a little loose for air barrier, and lack of curve in the wand meant having to make more holes closer together.Steve
Edited 3/3/2008 8:46 pm by mmoogie
Dang I thought this was going to be a thread about Green Bay fans.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
"Dang I thought this was going to be a thread about Green Bay fans."
That was completely uncalled for!!
If you're gonna insult us Packer fans, do it in the Tavern...
Rich Beckman
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That was completely uncalled for!!
In the words of Peanut------ "funny as hell though"
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
I thought it was going to be a thread about Ronald Reagan's missile deployment scheme.
Toushe'
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
I thought it was going to be a thread about Ronald Reagan's missile deployment scheme.
Now we're getting off-topic, but do you know what prompted Reagan's Star Wars missile defense systsem?
The CIA was conducting remote viewing experiments (clairvoyance) and a gifted psychic named Pat Price, a building contractor from Lake Tahoe, was able to identify a spherical object being assembled inside a PNUTS (probable underground nuclear testing facility) in the Soviet Union. It turned out to be part of the Soviet space program but the CIA was convinced from Pat's description that it was a nuclear warhead and Reagan (whose wife was into astrology) decided to spend billions to defend against them.
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"Mr. President, please back away from that button..."
3" 100' hose... USFiber machine ( circa 1980 ) Hurricane blower
you know how we do insulweb, glue
my calcs ( from memory ) are 3 #/cf +
i think we blow a stud bay in about a minute
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/4/2008 10:30 pm ET by MikeSmith
After my recent Taunton issued "vacation", I'm afraid to say what I thought this thread was about.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
What....stupid football players from Wisconsin?
I kknow what yer thinkin', cause I gave it the catchy title on purpose...gotta have a good headline, if you wann get 'em to read the story...Steve
mmoogie
I insulated for a community action agency doing LIHEA work for the state in the 90s.
We considered the force 2 to be underpowered. We had one. But upgraded all the machines to the Krendal 1000. I believe they are using the Krendal 2000 now.
We insulated existing homes, some empty, some backplastered and some blown with 1" holes.
We used a flexible 1 1/2 x 10' tube on the end of our 3" hose. We pushed it up the cavity and withdrew it when the material stopped flowing. You couldn't push it back up.
The Krendal would blow sheetrock off the wall, so we had to back the blower back to about 3 on a scale of 1-10. Plaster walls were blown with the blower at 10 and the material gate at about 30% open.
We didn't calculate density very often because of all the variables and we focused on getting the joist cavity full.
At the density that we blew you would never hold it in with mesh or with Tyvek on 24" centers as Riversong speaks of in Larson wall truss.
Rich
At the density that we blew you would never hold it in with mesh or with Tyvek on 24" centers as Riversong speaks of in Larson wall truss.
I blow the cellulose AFTER the siding is installed.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Robert
Sorry, I didn't recall correctly.
Rich
I don't do enough of it to buy a machine, only incidental to my overall remodeling/construction projects.The only blowers I can rent around here are force1 or force2 or the freebie square green cocoon blower that Home Despot gives you for a day if you buy ten bags. The force1 is pathetic. The force2 is capable of getting some density if you work the hose a lot and run it really lean. That's why it takes me so long I guess.I've heard of the Krendl machines, but never seen one.Steve
moogie
I'm in the same boat as you now.
Reduced to using the lumberyard's force 2.
Rich
Rich,So how quickly and how densely can you get it in the walls with that blower?Here is a picture of the recent mesh job I just did. I get much better density with the mesh than behind solid walls. I think this was up near 5lbs/cu ft.Steve
think this was up near 5lbs/cu ft.
No way you can get 5 pcf, especially with an open wall blow. You would have blown the insulweb right off the studs long before you reached that density and I don't think there's a machine out there that can achieve such densities.
Celpak, which I use, comes packaged at just under 9 pcf (like a brick). They recommend a 3 to 3.5 pcf for densepacked walls. It can be hard to get 3.5 pcf.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Robert,I know. I was stunned when I did the claculations. I did them over and over again, counting for every piece of framing, etc. I was getting better than 4 lbs no matter how I sliced it. And in the biggest, easiest to calculate volumes, it was over 4.5 lbs. And I have to say, it was dense. I had to really beat on the mesh hard to get it back to where I could install the sheetrock.The absolute tightest I've ever gotten it in the past was 3.5 lbs.Steve
That's scary. I wonder if the R/inch increases or decreases at that density.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I was wondering that too. But I'm happy for the density as I think it can only improve the airtightness. I don't bother with the air-tight drywall steps.Steve
And do you not use a vapor barrier?
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Robert,If most-if not all-moisture loading occurs via bulk air movement, and the the cells are dense enough to stop bulk air movement, why would you even really need a vapor barrier. And if most-if not all-drying of the wall occurs via diffusion, might a vapor barrier even be a bit detrimental?Regardless, I sheetrock and paint. One coat of Ben Moore Fresh start and two coats of latex topcoat is a vapor diffusion barrier, at least according to my codes officer. The first time I omitted the poly, I used vapor barrier primer. I dutifully pointed this out to my inspector, and he said that two coats of any latex paint constitued a vapor barrier, so I need not have bothered with the special primer.Do you put a vapor barrier under your sheetrock? The only thing I'm not bothering with is jumping through the air-tight hoops, as I feel it isn't necessary if you dense-pack well. If I was using fiberglass, which I never would, I would go with air-tight drywall.Steve
Getting rid of the poly vapor barrier is the reason I went to ADA. But to make inspectors happy I use a latex VB primer (~0.5 perms). Latex paint is generally 3.5 to 6 perms and latex painted drywall about 2-3 perms - not a vapor diffusion retarder. Oil paints are, but who's using interior oils?
If interior relative humidity is well controlled, I woud prefer not using any vapor diffusion retarder on the inside to allow for drying to the interior in summer. But I also like to keep the exterior skin 5x as permeable as the inside skin to allow winter drying to the outside.
Since moisture-laden air movement is the bane of all houses, I use the belt & belt & suspenders approach: ADA inside, dense-pack in the middle, and housewrap and careful detailing outside. I figure that, as the "sponge" in the wall gets thicker (I use 12" of cellulose) the more important it is to keep air and moisture out of the envelope.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
If I recall, the inspector told me that anything below 1 perm was acceptable, and that after 2 coats of any latex you would be under 1 perm. I think it's probably splitting hairs, since diffusion is such a minor player in moisture migration into walls.ADA is probably good practice, but a fair amount of extra work. I guess I trust the cells and the non-ADA sheetrock to be good enough.I've used the insulweb 4-5 times now, and the bulging isn't really a problem. I just push the pack in with my hands to flatten it out as I hang the sheetrock. This last time it was harder than usual, because of the unusually high density I was getting, but not at all unmanageable.The hardest part about the mesh is getting it on flat as well as tight. If it's wrinkled, it won't lie down for gluing very well and you have to put a lot more staples in it. My work partner has done a lot of canvas stretching, and I'm an a-rentative fussbudget, so between the two of us, we manage to get it pretty tight and flat.Steve
I agree it's unimportant, but no amount of latex paint is going to get you under 1 perm, unless you prime with Benjamin Moore Super Spec Vapor Barrier Primer Sealer 260. It's cheap, too.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Well, we're in agreement. If the inspector is happy with paint of any stripe, I'll keep doing what I'm doing, since I feel less VDR on the inside is better.I like Fresh Start mostly because I can use it for everything, and it covers really well. I'll have to read the SuperSpec can next time I'm in the store. If it can be used inside and out,on wood and sheetrock, and uder latex or Satin Impervo, then what the heck. It's obscene what they charge for good paint these days.Steve
"It's obscene what they charge for good paint these days."
It's even more obscene what they charge for mediocre paint.
Rich Beckman
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It's even more obscene what they charge for mediocre paint.
Do you mean medium ocre?
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I had to really beat on the mesh hard to get it back to where I could install the sheetrock.
How far does the mesh bulge beyond the framing ?
carpenter in transition
tim,It depends on how tight you pull the mesh when you install it, and how far apart the studs are, but generally about 3/4" in the middle.Steve
I haven't used insulweb, but I spoke with a technical consultant at National Fiber a couple of days ago and he suggested stapling the mesh to the sides of the studs after stapling to the inside edges, in order to pull it tighter and to prevent bulging.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes