Giving serious consideration to a career change. After 5 years of being on my own (as a sole prop), DW still cannot get used to the long, odd hours, the irregular pay, the uncertainty… It just stresses her out too much. Most of our fighting and fussing seems to come back to the business in some way or another. Most likely would be out of the remodeling industry – pushing 40 and I can’t go work for someone else at a low hourly wage. Currently, I love what I do (‘cept the paperwork), but if it is going to destroy my marriage, which I have worked to hard on, then I guess it is time to move on (jobwise).
Any wisdoms?
Replies
I came to a point when the self employment picture as a small contractor and/or carpentry sub was very limited (as it seems to be now in many areas).
I chose to use my knowledge of union politics to re-join the carpenter's union with a view to making that a foundation for furthering my other business aims.
That decision worked out well in the way that would make your wife happy and also allowed me flexibility about scheduling of other work. I had a good paycheck when working, unemployment benefits and health insurance.
The downside to union work is that there's seldom anything creative about it nor much that is worth remembering for the craftsmanship. In addition there's usually someone pushing for higher performance/production. The threat/example of layoffs is used to get compliance.
In other words, it's not a career move so much as a way to survive with security while trying to build a better business model for yourself.
I know how hard it is but its not always easy working for the MAN . You have to be somewhere at 8 in the morn , Others take credit when you do good , Others are more then happy to give you the blame, Your fellow workers are brown nosers, backstabbers, You boss can be a petty tyrant, Theres no job security anywhere, They take taxes out of your paycheck and do you the "favor" of holding them for you. You have to be PC all the time , you cant pass gas and laugh or tell dirty jokes. I only worked in a few places where there were lots of people, Wow theres some big time hate going round, I would rather roof by myself.
Appears to me that the major choice is self-employment or not.
You say "out of the remodeling industry". Is the primary problem your self-employment or remodeling?
I think most everyone should try self-employment, especially if they don't succeed. Gives great perspective.
Within self-employment, lots of options outside remodeling.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
More or less, the stress stems from being self employed, though I'm sure there are plenty of start up options that are less stressful than remodeling. More I think about it, the harder it seems to be able to go back and punch a clock; liable to punch more than the clock. I really enjoy the creative license I have a remodelor. Whether it be figuring out a new way to do something or just making a stupid little jig to cut something. People outside the trades have little idea just how much mental power it takes...
just how much mental power it takes...
Or how satisfying the solution is. OTOH, I enjoy my yearly skirmishes with the IRS. Not that I'd want to be an accountant.
Lots of ways to make a living. We're both self-employed, both crappy employees. Once you define the problem clearly, the solution direction should be apparent.
Good luck.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
hmj...you're in baltimore.. seems like a pretty good market
i'd guess that most of us have been where you are.. i know i was
seemed like being a banker, or a school teacher, policeman, municipal worker....
almost anything is better
does your wife work too ?
from startup in '75 to the recession of '87 i was making almost nothing... giving my work away and blaming myself because i wasn't "productive enough"
in '88 i took a job at prevailing wage for a demolition firm... still kept my business on the books
when i started back up again i decided enough was enough, and i was going to stop running my business as a hobby and run it like a business
i read "Guerilla Marketing"... got a logo, got job signs, got truck signs, took a continuing ad in the weekly paper
i incorporated and started paying myself a weekly paycheck
i got payroll service
i found a better insurance agent and gave them ALL my business
i concentrated all my purchases with ONE lumber yard, one roofing supply, one millwork supply
i followed walt stoeppleworth's recommendations for markup
and i started making money..
every year since, i not only have paid myself every week.... i've also had to pay taxes on the profit our corporation makes
it sometimes ain't much...but....
you know those statements you get from the Social Security Admin ?... where it lists your annual income ?... there were many years with a zero next to them..so i do remember what it was like
you have two choices...rebuild your business, or go to work for some other company
i don't think you can build your business if you don't have the moral support of your wife....and i'm not sure that working for some other company is any source of security today
i will tell you what an old guy told me.. every day he went to work and he worked on his business... and as the years went by , it got a little easier, and he made a little more money..
he retired at 65 , a wealthy man...
i will probably never retire, so it's good that i like what i do
one of my sisters retired at 50, a public school teacher, which is good... because in the end, she didn't like what she did anymore
if you can't change the way you do business, then you're doomed to repeat
if you go to work for someone else, you may wind up a very unhappy camper, of you may find a very rewarding career
obviously, something has to change... good luckMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, You have given some great advice here. Last couple years I've started really running things like it was a business. spent money on advertising, vehicles, tools, computers, etc in the aim to better the business. It seems strange but the more I spend (wisely of course) the more comes back to me. I just started a job I worked on once as a sub and the house burned down. the rebuild is likely to go to 1.5 mil. The owner of the house picked me over all other contractors in the area. no bidding required. Why? because I always tried to do what was right for the business - even if it didn't feel right for my wallet. Hopefully I will continue to reap the rewards of my past efforts. I enjoy all of your posts mike - I've learned a lot from you and some of the other guys here and attribute my position today partly to listing to good advice here.Jason"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
sounds like you could write the book
i really like your "Alumni"...
if i ever get my web site going .. i think i'll steal that
quite a few guys started with me, i'd like to put in my siteMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm happy to say most of the guys that have worked for me that have moved on are still in touch. Some have done quite well for themselves. One is a school teacher, one is an engineer, anoter works for hilti. I actually like the idea of being a building block in their careers, makes me feel good to contribute to their future. In fact the one guy - Adam - designed my website for me. Alumni was his idea. He is a carp in the union right now - needed good health insurance. He has done well for himself there - he has become a supervisor on a few jobs. I need him back for a few days to help me update the site."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Mike,Thanks for your thoughts. The problem is really not the money, or lack of - though it can come in erratically. If we were starving or fighting off creditors, I would have bailed a long time ago. As it is, I work alone, and don't sub much, concentrating on small jobs - lots of T&M, handyman gig... So, in addition to running the business, I am doing all the fieldwork, all the sales, the maintainence, the bookkeeping... The help I have tried just didn't work out- a different work ethic and no real interest in doing a good job or taking pride in ones work.It gets to the point, especially in busy season, where I am pulling 7 days a week, up to 12 hours a day. Not that I plan it that way, but it just happens. Obviously the family suffers (though some would say they might be better off) when I am absent so much. Speaking, of time to take the kids to dinner... Not sure what the solution is.
I don't think it's such a big deal if you get a job with a decent remodeling carpenter co.......If your good you'll still get plenty of free license.......and you can always have imput into the design etc........minus the business part.Could be win win for both you and your wife......
hmj
this biz will eat you up and spit you out. If you let it. Make some down time. That's right I said MAKE. Schedule it. Don't let a client intrude. Tell em you have dinner with your family scheduled.
No 7 day weeks to start. Then work into "only" 10 hr days. Then pretty soon no estimates in the evening. See where I'm going?
Good luck
Hmj
You decide on your hours... noone else.
If you choose to be a slave--that's your reality.
If you choose to do all the toil, your earnings will suffer.
I went through 15 years of sporadic money until all of a sudden I was making a good wage in 3 days a week.
Takes time to build a business.
Takes time to learn the hard lessons. The satisfaction of being a lone gun and doing it all yourself pales when you notice you missed out on your family...and a chunk of your life you will never get back.
There is a lot to business and sure, there are times when you have to push to please the client. When you can afford to have help and get it all done in 8 hours or 6 hours a day (2 or 3 for sales and paperwork)... then you have a business.
Then you have less stress.
Personally... I couldn't handle the stress of working for someone else. Couldn't when I was 20 either.
Good Luck--
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Wow,
Long time since you've been around. Nice to see you here.
Stop by a little more often will ya?
Eric[email protected]
Hi Eric-- Yeah, long time!
Nice to see you, hope life is good for you. It's mostly when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground and I can't get photos for design work!
It's been more than a little steady of late.
If we keep the posts short is it still hijacking?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
you said you had hired help and it didn't work out. If your work ethic and standards are as good as you say, who wouldn't se you as a valuable asset to a crew. You don't have to start out working for very little. Especially if you can lead another carp or two through a proect freeing up the boss to sell, track, bill other jobs. It's too hard to do it all. there comes a time when work must be delegated. I have an old timer working with me (been with e on and off for 10 years now). He allows me to leave him and two other guys on site while I do the running around that needs to be done. I still do office work nites and weekends but all my customer contact happens during business hours wether it be in person or on the phone. I set the precedent that we are a business that is available during business hours. if you don't, customers will never leave you alone and you will find yourself working 24/7."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Why don't you make a serious effort to find some really good employees? There are good people with the right attitude out there that can really help towards getting things done. I have a buddy who's a metal fabricator around here where I work and he's always complaining about the same things you write about and my response to him is "get some help". He's finally listening and I've noticed he's a lot more relaxed these days. It's totally doable, you've just got to come to the realization that you're not the only one with the capability of getting the job done properly. There are self motivated individuals out there who will surprise you if you give them a chance.
Also, I don't understand why bookwork would have to take up that much time and energy. I hire a payroll outfit and all that's basically involved there is calling in the hours a signing a few forms from time to time. It's not that expensive. An hour or two on the weekend on my part seems to pretty much take care of everything and I've had as many as ten guys, (not including subs), on payroll.
I say if you've got the work, it'd be crazy not to stick with it, just work on efficiency. That's my two cents anyway.
I wouldn't try to talk him out of hanging it up. He's burned out. It's easy to see why. He's taking on five jobs and neglecting his life. Hire a part time bookeeper. Hire a commission only sales person. Hire an apprentice. Send the books to a CPA. Then live. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
My point is, the work situation doesn't have to be anywhere near as difficult as it sounds. The female situation is another thing entirely. I've never been able to figure that one out, LOL!
"It gets to the point, especially in busy season, where I am pulling 7 days a week, up to 12 hours a day. Not that I plan it that way, but it just happens."
It just happens because you don't plan for it to not happen.You are in control. Work forty hours a week, charge enough so that you can be comfortable on that. Explain to people that you are busy and it will take awhile to get to them, it is amazing how long people will wait if they know up front that it will be that long.
This way all that work that shows up during the busy times will flow into and fill the slow times.
Take control of your business. It is yours. The customer is always right is a good attitude to have, but the customer is not in charge, you are.
Rich Beckman
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along those thoughts ...
one of my best buds in my mechanic. He's got a garage built off his house, so he pretty much works from home.
he's been a weight lifter all his life. Coupla years back he started letting that slide.
once he got back in to ... he was afraid to skip even one day at the gym ... so it's been close to 5 yrs now that he's been to the gym every other day.
and he lifts in the morning ... so everyone know ... U wanna get ahold of Brian ...
M, W and F are his "late days" ... he's not back to the shop till 9:30am or 10am.
he also is my demo man ... he likes to get out of the shop from time to time ... so I have him help me demo most of my projects.
and I know ... M, W, F ... I don't expect to see him till 10am.
no questions asked ... he told me once ... all week long he runs around for other people ... and his time at the gym is for him. So he's gonna take his time first ...
so he has the energy to run the rest of the week for everyone else!
makes sense ...
on a similar note ... this year Corey started kindergarden. It works better when I take him in the morning ... less tears in the beginning ... less foot dragging now.
But he doesn't start till 8am. So now ... the earliest I can expect to be anywhere is 8:30 ... and I don't promise anything before 9am.
my preferred hours were 8 to 4.
sometimes 7:30 when I wanted to get a jump on things ... or leave early.
but now ... it's 9 to 5.
gotta put myself and my kid first.
hasn't been a problem yet ... except for one potential job ...
and that particular guy has problems written all over him.
in actuality ... we could change up the schedule ... if we absolutely had to ...
but I'm thinking at least that once ... that guys inflexibility up front saved me from unreasonable demands down the road.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
If you are going to start up or run your own business, it doesn't matter what it is, you will have plenty of stress until you have it figured out. Mike Smith is a good example. It takes most of us twenty years to get to the point where things can proceed easily and reasonably profitably. Some can do it faster than that but they are the exception. Most of us only learn the painful wayl
Are you and your marriage up for that?
If not, get a job working for somebody. You will be a more valuable employee because of your self-employment experience even if it is a completely different field. Good luck.
I'd tell your wife to shut the hell up. If you do love what you do, then keep doing it. If you switch careers and you aren't happy, you'll hate the new job and you'll hate your wife for pushing you into the decision. You're the man you make the family decisions.
Women never stop complaining. If you work too much, they say you're never around. Work too little, they say they need some space and to get out of their hair. Just do what you want to do. And make her get a part-time job if the money isn't coming in like she wants it to.
You posted that to the wrong guy I think.
True words but what the hell are you trying to do get him divorced?
It's 50/50 here, or at least we try. His DW needs to find a little more support for him though...........[email protected]
Oh sorry bout that. I'm not trying to get him divorced but if she wants him to quit the job he loves doing, then I'd tell her bye-bye.
It's 50/50 here, or at least we try
that means you keep score... i learned a long time ago... never keep score ...1. because it's always a judgement call... and 2. it's never 50/50
i'm cool with 90/10 sometimes... sometimes all i can give is the 10... sometimes i'm fine knowing i have to give the 90... balance doesn't mean 50/50
at least thats the way it is in my world...
p
Well said.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Mike Smith for president!
I read this thread last night and woke up thinking of it. Having had multiple careers and made good money at all of them, having been a one man band and now a "company" type operation I think I have experienced it all.
I think there is more money in working for someone else. I simply can't afford to fund the type of perks and benefits that the large corporations did when I worked for them. Even when things are really booming for me.
Raises were regular and so were bonuses. It takes money to grow a business and even when you are making good money often it gets eaten up paying for the next truck, tool, building, copier, fax machine etc.
I believe being a one man band is the toughest unless you have managed to be in a position of just managing subs. The problem is when you are doing a task all other tasks stop. Even if you have one good employee you can at least leave an hour early to return phone calls or make a sales call, go to the bank etc. and some work will continue. It is certainly the most demanding position I have ever been in.
Once you get to where you have 4+ employees they no longer work for you, you work for them. You are hustling to keep material, sell work, keep the insurance, permits, trucks, tools, etc happening. Personally I enjoy that.
I don't have any idea how you could be self employed without a wife that is supportive. In my opinion you would just be miserable all the time.
The main benefit to being self employed in my opinion is simply control of your time. If you are working tons of hours and missing out on family stuff it is because you choose to. No other reason. Because that can be scheduled just like a sales call.
My last year working in corporate america I opened a new hotel. I saw 2 of my son's baseball games. There was always one more thing to do at the job, one more meeting to attend, one more detail to check. I decided then that was enough. I was self employed during his high school and college football period and never missed a game. I gave up the money but gained a lot more IMO.
Another reason for self employement is it can be whatever you want it to be. If you give it some thought (Mike Smiths example is text book of giving it thought after struggling out of the gate) you can work it around to whatever you want it to be. In my son's freshman year of college he played football on the freshman team, games were Monday evenings. I stopped scheduling work on Mondays and did paper work in the morning.
Self employement is the most difficult task I have taken on. It is also the most rewarding and has the most oppurtunity to learn. Your finanicial rewards are not of cash but equity in the business, equipment, tools, trades you can make etc. A deal makers paradise if you ask me.
Structured correctly I believe you can make a decent living out of it and still enjoy life. Structured incorrectly and a slave you will be. DanT
And I thought slavery was over.... Seems to me that I put ton of energy into just keeping the business rolling- making sure I have jobs lined up, keeping current on best practices, learning new skills... Not so much on growing it. One difference I can see between myself and lot of the posters is that I can hit between 2 to 10 jobsites a week - all different small jobs. Creates a lot more paper to deal with and invariably just leads to longer days.
I've really thought about your post...
an older guy who is as smart business wise as anyone i've ever known... use to talk to me... he being 30+yrs my senior... and me knowing how he has worked his butt off most of his life to be seeing the fruits ... the real fruits... at about age 60 or so... he ran gas stations... and often told me how hard and long he'd work and always be dirty...
he tought me the gold mine vs the coal mine theory (his)... i have yet to grasp all of it... but in theory... you can work your butt off in a coal mine... and make a living... you'll always be dirty and tired or... you can gold mine... you'll still work hard but the back breaking labor will be put onto others and you'll stay clean... the added plus is that people that deal in gold have more money than those who deal in coal...
he stayed in the gas station business... but he got stations in the richest areas of town... supplied full service when no one else would or did... his prices for gas were 25-40 cents a gallon higher when gas was less than a dollar... but he'd pump it for you and wiped your windshield and checked air & oil... highest gross'n stations in town... full service bays... people trusted him with their cars and kids cars the same as many people trust many on this board with their homes...
his son still has the stations he's moved to FL... I had the chance to go into another business with him at one point and i passed... dumb... very dumb...
my point is the same as others here... give cut'n back the hours... fewer jobs done faster because they have more of your attention... and bid at a higher price... it's worth a short term shot just so that you can regain your balance
good luck my friend
p
Thanks. I sort of realized that already, been told over and over, but it just doesn't ever seem to come to fruition (the whole working less for more thing). Kind of like a drunk/junkie who has to hit rock bottom before he can make changes he needs to make. Maybe I've hit the bottom.
that means you keep score... i learned a long time ago... never keep score ...1. because it's always a judgement call... and 2. it's never 50/50
No, that only means that you feel/think I keep score which was an incorrect assumption on your part entirely.
Your crystal ball is a little foggy tonite or your counseling certification needs dusting off.
An anecdotal quip and you feel the need to comment on my marriage? Huh?
Apparently you weren't paying attention when I spoke at my wedding reception before my family and friends. The analogy I made was a reference to riding our bikes together on a long trip. I pull, she pulls. Sometimes I pull more, longer harder. Sometimes she does. Sometimes one of us needs to give the other a push to get them up and over the hill. The goal to this is that we both arrive at our chosen destination.
There are the times that we ride side by side. That's 50/50.
I'm not sure where this came from in this thread on your part. Perhaps a little mirror gazing is in order on your part. Apparently you had nothing to offer the op............
Eric
[email protected]
Edited 2/25/2008 6:38 am ET by EricPaulson
it wasn't directed at you in general... but you did post the 50/50 part... on which i commented... I think we all know everyone does what they can in a relationship...
as far as the OP... it's so far out there for me to even think my wife would tell me how i should provide for her & the kids... i couldn't even start to get into that boat... when dating my wife once told me "you are not my daddy" i only had to be told once... the OP... i was pretty shocked at... here is a guy working and happy... and his wife is unhappy with that situation? and .. he's wanting to change the situation to make her happy? at the expense of what?
I learned early happy people have little time to try to make others unhappy...
i in no way ment to offend you or your relationship... my whole comment was based on the notion of 50/50...
peace
p
Fair 'nuff PT.
And you caused me to go back and read the original post.
Perhaps he DOES need marriage counseling as much as he need business counseling or maybe more.
It sounds to me like it is more than his wife that is making him unhappy.
It's a tough spot. Part of my decision to go to work was based on my wifes prodding. Some, not all, a small part of it. That part grew out of my UNDERSTANDING why she felt the way she did.
I think most spouses would agree that they wish to see their significant other succeed, and well. AND have a relationship with them as well. So if a body is working 60 + hours a week, or isn't and is constantly stressed out, then it is understanable for a spouse to be upset if that is how they choose to manifest their displeasure.
Take care,
Eric[email protected]
Thanks for the marriage counselling. I take it that you have tried this out yourself.
Hell no man! I've never been married. I'm crazy but I'm not that crazy.
Thanks for the "advice". How could I tell you have never tied the knot? Both my wife and I agree that we wouldn't be married-to anyone- without having (or the desire to have) children.
ponytl just gave you a bunch of good advice, as did some others.
I quit working for someone else about 10 yrs ago because my wife complained that I was never home (I wasn't).
I built my business around being home (my office and shop are in the home). I often go several days at a time without leaving home. My wife now bitches that I never leave home.
After going thru 4 marraige counselors, the consensus (almost-DW is the one exception) is that my wife is not going to be satisfied, no matter what I do.
If you like what you do, get some counseling before you do anything rash. If you're unhappy with the whole scenario as well, try a new direction.
Good luck.http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
I'll try to be short here...........what Mike Smith said.
There, I'm done!
Listen, after nearly thirty years of being "self employed" (ha ha) I came to a point, with DW on my azz I might add, of realizing my "business" wasn't really that at all. I too hated the paper end of it to a degree, although I didn't pound in the hours like you did except early in my "career".
I made a decision. Either people were going to pay me what I thought I was worth or I was going to get a job. After a couple of months of trying to sell myself to the wrong people I called it quits. Had I not been in a hard place I might have thoughtfully stuck it out a bit longer.
There is no reason in the world to work all those crazy hours. If you can't make a decent living in 30 to 50 hrs you're doing something wrong. Do the numbers. Either you make it work or not.
I went to work for a company I used to sub for. There is a lot of background, and it's NOT the end all of jobs, nor was it a career move. That's coming next. In the meanwhile I get a check every friday for the same amount. It is amazing what a difference that has made in my life inspite of all the other difficulties I have had over the past more than two years now.
I see myself in a different position now. I clearly understand what it means to be in business. I means not always being the nice guy cause you want to do the right thing. You have a wife, you have a life. At least you are supposed to. If you can't find a way to make your "business" take good care of you AND your wife, then get out and go to work for someone.
There are good companies out there that will treat you well and with respect and good compensation in return for your talents.
You need to decide with a time limit whether or not you can make what you have work for you. You should be able to draw a steady paycheck on a weekly basis from your business. That alone should asuage DW. If you can't figure that out, or if it is too much for you, or if the demographics of you region preclude that from happening, it's time to swallow hard and make a decision.
This is what I am doing now, as someone else posted here (JMCarp I believe)
In other words, it's not a career move so much as a way to survive with security while trying to build a better business model for yourself.
I'm beginning to get the itch again, but I have a lot of time to think and I won't go at it again with out a good rock solid plan. In the meantime I am educating my self, trying to get some accreditations and realizing that it ain't so bad working for the man. It's just a matter of finding a good one.
Read the trade publications and you will see that there are rock solid ventures out there providing their employees with vacation, holiday and sick pay, benefits and continuing education.
Googlr Hanley Wood publications. There are several magazines that are free to the trades. Look for Remding and Professional Remodeler. Lots of good business advice out there. Stick around. I owe my career change to listening to these guys..........
Wow, that was short eh?
Sorry to seem harsh. Just relating to you the reality I discovered.
Eric
[email protected]
hmj
Been there done that.
At your age I quit the business to work for someone else (4 days/week) to get insurance and reduce the stress. Still worked for myself Friday and Saturday.
At first it was great to just get a list of materials from the yard and do the job and not have to worry about the money end of working.
I went back on my own after a couple of years.
Now I only work 7 AM to 5:30 PM (unless rain is coming and the roof is open), Monday thru Friday. I still do bookwork in the evenings and weekends or during the work day. Whenever I can work it in.
I have a similar business to you remodeling and repair.
You have to decide that you set the hours. If you don't, people will let you work yourself to death.
When it is all said and done DW is the only one who really cares for you (other than Mom). If you went to the emergency room tommorrow, you know she would be the first one there and the last to leave your side.
Take care of your wife 1st!!!! Below are resources. Read the book with your wife together. Take her on a date to Mac and Dee's steakhouse once a week and then find a quiet place to read a chapter together.
This guy is fair to both the man and the woman. You will swear that he has been listening to all your arguments. It will suddenly be clear what is going on in your marriage.
Harmony with your wife pays many benefits.
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Respect-Desires-Desperately-Needs/dp/1591451876
The book.
http://www.loveandrespect.com The marriage conference. We try to do a marriage conference once every couple of years.
Rich
I don't see how it can be done without a supportive wife.
and I'm certainly not about to lay any blame on her at all ... it is a tough life.
my wife is also a worrier ... she's just generally uncomfortable if she can't plan her life out almost 100% ... some people are like that.
she does however have 100% faith in me ... so she's getting better with the feast / famine side of being self employeed. And it's not just construction ... it's all self employeed. She might be a bit better with it ... as before I got back into remodeling ... I was in sales. And in sales ... the 100% commission jobs paid the highest ... highest risk for highest rewards. So she got used to the idea that it's all a numbers game ... and sooner or later it's gonna hit.
The whole reason I am self employeed is because all in all it makes for a better family life .... so if the whole reason I'm self employeed is because of my family ...
if going back to employee mean for a better family life ... I'd man up and do it.
I don't work for myself ... I work for my family.
I had a lean winter and was certainly looking at any and all other options ...
if / when I find something that puts more money in the bank ... I'm there.
I went and go "a real job" when my wife was pregnant with our first baby. Same reasons as you are looking at ... nervous wife now nervous about a brand new baby being born ... I'd always considered working for someone else to see how a mid sized company operated and see what I could learn new from them.
Figured that time was the ebst time to do it ... kill two birds with one stone.
so I interviewed alot ... waited for what I thought was the right company for me ... I wanted one where I'd get a look at the inside operations and learn new and better techniques ... finally picked one ...
and found out that wasn't the place for me. So not even a month into it ... I started interviewing again ... again ... interviewed alot ... and found a company I stayed with for the next coupla years.
I wanted to focus on high end ... and working there really upped my game.
found out I was a great employee too. Not so hard to do after all.
in the end ... they went another direction ... went no employee / all sub.
and I was laid off then handed a set of bath prints in the same meeting.
and that started my sub career.
left that meeting with no job, but subbed for them steady for the next 2 years pretty much doubling my last employee paycheck.
Gotta make the most out of any situation.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
hmj
Most of our fighting and fussing seems to come back to the business in some way or another.
You only think it's about the business.
She is screaming that she wants you to pay attention to her and the the kids.
Rich
Bingo!!!!!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
cargin,My being wrapped up in the business is why my family suffers from the lack of my attentions. Otherwise I'd pester the hale out of them until they begged to be left alone.
This is just a different perspective, and not designed to take away from the 98% of other advice here which is excellent. :)
It depends on your wife.
Have you thought of including her in the business?
Maybe you could teach her the accounting part or have her take a course.
Maybe she could work sales for you.
These things would bring you together. Her hours would be flexible (but definitely only during business hours!).
This would cut back on your time and allow you to concentrate more on the work you love. Both of you will have some freedom and no crazy boss.
Don't forget that she must get paid! That will make all the difference.
You should be able to handle the learning curve. It is going to be much better than what you have now. Think outside the box.
Hazlett has given some great advice as he has to me in the past.
The one aspect I will add is what Sasquatch mentioned about the wife being involved. I posted something about wives being involved about a year ago.
Some of us like myself have career-oriented wives who are not into our business in any way, shape or form YET want us earning the same money they do. I know that a separate issue (maybe for the marriage counseling section of FHB) but it is a major factor in many of our decisions. I know it was with mine deciding to give it up.
Tax time is when it usually hits as they see what we make compared to them.
Just my two cents of course.
Sasquatch,thanks for the alternative input. Wife does help a little with the business, though not necessarily where I need it. Not being in the trenches, I have a hard time accepting her input on alot of work issues. Be like me telling her how to squeeze out a baby. THough mostly she just tells me I don't charge enough for any given job, and I don't follow SOPs. Both are generally true.She works fulltime outside the home, and carries the health insurance through her employer.
hmj,
I know exactly where you are coming from as its the EXACT same with me. Wife makes more than I have been the past few years and it would be nice (and fair to her) to keep up. Its easy to say just tell her to "deal with it" but I want my marriage to work as well as my career path. I've got over 15 years invested in both.
Work has been slow and I am a bit tired of fretting where the next paycheck will come from yet when I have worked for others and not just in construction, its less stressful and I made more money.
Then its tax time and you see how much you pay for being the self-employed LLC that you thought would be making more money. If you are in a Statelocation that doesn't require alot of extra licenses, fees, charges etc it might not be bad but I figure it costs us $10k a year just to stay in business legally. I know that is not all that much but it is to me right now.
I have chosen to change careers this summer once I have my current work wrapped up. Part of me hates to do it but part of me really wants a change as well. I hit 40 later this year and want the glamour job many of my friends have where they stay clean all day and hit golf balls on Friday afternoon instead of swinging a hammer. I had it before and now want it back.
That decision is not right for everyone but it is for me where I am at right now.
If I was making six figures on my own it would be different but unfortunately I am not.
Best of luck to you.
Mike
Currently I pay myself / my wife every Friday. I also pay all of my guys on Friday. If things are tight, I pay my guys first and my wife when I get the money. Approx. once every 3 months I ask my wife if she can wait until Saturday for her check. This always leads to a fight, and probably always will. She needs to feel secure and with a mortgage two kids and all the normal bills I cannot blame her.
Good Luck
I am in your shoes right now, I have let my work take over every aspect of my life and my marraige has suffered severely.
I am very stable work wise, never slowed down. And that in my mind is good, but I never slowed down to realize that my wife was miserable.
Listen to your wife if you really love her, slow down a little. I was a seven day a week guy, 24 hours a day. I made myself available when others bad planning created an emergency. Not anymore, I want to make my wife happy and if that means 5 days a week so be it, I'm happy to be at home on Weekends with her.
Remember you are self employed, you decide when to work. Don't make the same mistake I did. Don't give up what you love to do find a happy medium and your life will get much better.
Woods favorite carpenter
Is your work any good???I'm not a pro contractor- but I do live near Baltimore (carroll county) and have hired pros on occasion for various things. LISTEN to what these men tell you. There are two ways you can save this:1) Work less
2) Charge MORE.Every contractor I know that is worth his salt in this area is BOOKED SOLID. What does that mean for me as a consumer? I wait for the bid. I wait for the schedule. Basically I wait for them. (See #1)And they don't work late or sundays or holidays. Yet still I wait . . . .. Why? Because I don't want the cheapest guy. I want the best guy my budget allows. Every contractor I know that is worth his salt charges dearly. What does that mean for me as a consumer? I pay more. I pay more. I pay more. I know the guys I use do good work and stand behind it. The guy I use for concrete doesn't even bid any more. I tell him what I want and when I may need it and he gives me a bill when he's done. And he aint't the cheapest guy around. But we enjoy a good working relationship. I know he's on the High-middle or high end price wise. But his business is not a commodity. So I pay him gladly when he hands me a bill.Do you want to keep your business afloat. From a consumer's perspecive, I don't want the cheapest guy, I want the best guy my budget allows. If my budget cannot afford you, that's MY problem. Not YOUR problem. So target the people that CAN afford your services on your terms. For Cryin out loud, you live in Balt / DC. There's GOBS OF MONEY here. And GOBS of people willing to spend it. S&K Roofing is a commodity. Welsh Remodeling is a commodity. Don't allow yourself to become a commodity. Separate yourself and make a concentrated effort to take off Sundays and quit at 10 hours. Then up your prices to cover the time you're taking for yourself and your wife. People will pay it. I'm living proof. As are the customers of Mike Smith, Jeff Buck, and Stan (as well as lots of others on this board). But it's a bit of a leap of faith on your part.
Edited 2/25/2008 8:54 am ET by frontiercc2
"Is your work any good???"Depends on who you ask. There are plenty better and lots worse. At the very least, I take pride in my efforts and am sure to do the best job I can and make it right if I screw it up.As far as work, I'm very busy- only to get busier soon I probably average 85% repeat and referrals. When I do T&M jobs, I charge at $75/ hour. Course, most of my work is in fancy shamncy Howard County, where the median income is $90K. Money is not so much the issue, though I tend to put quite a bit back into the business. That and yes, I have a problem, it's a tool addiction. Again, the problem is I am trying to do everything because I'm not ready to get put in a position where I am ordering guys around and cleaning their messes up.
Industry Related Articles - September 2007
I’ve seen it a hundred times. I’ve been a victim myself. It’s never been referenced in a medical text. I call the disease The Mask of Hard Work and was reminded of it yet again as I spoke with a potential consulting client. The Malady is centered in my belief that many a great technician who owns the business never makes the leap from job-site laborer to business orchestrator.
This thinking is based on the following observations; a technician seems rooted in knowing that more money requires more hours for the sake of quantity rather than quality, and planning is reserved for production operations and is not a fundamental tool for running a company.
Following is the gist of a conversation I had with a gentleman owner last week. "I don’t get it. I work forty, fifty and more hours every week and still can’t seem to get ahead."
How do you spend that time? "Well, most days I am on the job-site from early morning until late afternoon. After that I run to a couple appointments and follow that up with a few hours working on bids."
What do you see as the problem? "This darned economy has me running seven days a week, it’s the worst thing. Even though I have a lot of work, I am always bidding against people who don’t have a legitimate business."
And you do? My response is not intended to be one of arrogance but, rather, one of enlightenment. Even in the best of times we hear the truth about "illegitimate competition". Such Industry parasites will be bidding for our work as long as people live in houses and work in buildings. My feeling in most cases such as this is that the root of the issue is neither the economy nor the competition. Instead it is in our failure to distinguish between running a business ourselves and working hard every day to make a wage.
Let me share another example. A past client chose to take over all the sales responsibilities for his successful company. We re-organized, delegated, mapped and planned. We created a great marketing campaign that got the phone ringing.
We trained the players to strategically follow protocols for scheduling the appointments and trying to use good interview techniques to qualify some of the calls. Ignoring the value of his own time, our salesperson, in collusion with staff, chose to visit everyone who called from everywhere. The outcome was predictable. The margins got more difficult and the contracts came harder because the business strategy was replaced by the "work harder and longer" strategy. He was wearing The Mask.
Instead of investing in fewer strategic calls and following a plan, our owner fell victim to the idea of more-is-better and actually lost business because he wasn’t taking the time to sell. He wasn’t following the plan. He stated to blame "the economy". He wasn’t running his business.
I always liked the axiom used in the manufacturing sector that says for every one hour invested in planning and managing the company should reap thousands of hours in profitable production. As a technician you make money by wiring or plumbing or framing. Repetition is the key to your success on-site. Mistakes are limited and dollars are produced because you do the same things over and over according to proven methods.
For the technician-cum-business owner applying this same thinking to the business of what they do is often a quantum leap; but one that must be made to reap the rewards of ownership.
Another business stratagem recommends approximately twenty-percent of management’s time should be invested in planning operations. This is business planning, not production planning. In the Sweet Science of Building this is an important distinction to make. Every technician knows a well-planned production operation is "half over before its begun". You plan deliveries and schedules and quantities and protocols.
Things progress more smoothly and you make "better" money. You work smart. Smart leads to safe profit and repeat business.
The same thinking must be applied to the business of what you do. You plan time. You plan resources. You map strategies, for everything from hiring to delegating to answering the phones. Well planned, well executed and well managed allows you to repeat your successes in the office and not just on the job-site. Fewer fires to put out saves a lot of water.
So the next time you are in the fifth straight week of running fifty and sixty hours, stop and look in the mirror. Are you wearing the Mask of Hard Work or reaping the rewards of good planning? You tell me.
Chuck Breidenstein is a lifelong builder, author and educator. He has presented thousands of programs on behalf of the Industry and continues his work as a national speaker, business success consultant, expert witness and builder. Contact Chuck at [email protected], or by phone at 517-719-5445.
[email protected]
great points , ericMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hmj,
i went through a similar phase--at about your age( I am 45 now)
Seriously-- I don't think you have much of a problem. If you change 2or3 things you will see a big improvement in your quality of life
1)------- THINK for a few days , while you are working, about the kind of person YOU want to be. THEN-schedule a couple hours to yourself--- take a legal pad, a sharp pencil--head off to a bar-ot the library or a coffee house--or the park-----and actually right down a list of qualities YOU want to have---rank em in order. Actually physically do DO this------bingo-the hard work is done------you now have a frame work with which you can judge most of your future actions( does this take me closer to the sort of person I want to be--or farther away? )
If you actually DO #1-- i will be seriously suprised if you give much more serious thought to giving up business and taking a job----because--from what you have written--you don't seem like a "job" person
2) you say that money insn't a problem----and that is fantastic---but I bet you-when push comes to shove--money is an issue. think about it---if you were neting $400,000 a year for the same amount of hours---your wife wouldn't say boo---would she?---so the money IS an issue---in relation to the time you invest to generate it.
If you aren't really interested in increasing the money( I wasn't)-you can improve the ratio of the time spent earning it---and have the same relative pay-off.
3)People have told you to charge more work less--instinctively you agree--- but you are having a bit of a struggle actually implementing it?--It is actually organization-- i think that is probably where ONE of your TWO problems are
you mentioned paperwork----2-10 jobs a week generating a lot of paperwork. NO-not really--many times i have done somewhere in that range each day--the paperwork isn't burdensome-- you just need a system to handle it---and then actually work the system. STOP taking business calls on your cel phone--you work alone----so there are no employees or subs starting fires for you to put out----AND-- you are doing primarily referall work---YOU are in demand--so capitalize on that demand and take controll of the situation. Basically---your answering machine is going to take ALL calls----and you are going to return ALL calls in one sitting each day--------you have NO idea how much time this is going to free up each day--and how much more efficient it is going to make you !--also-learn to say NO-----just don't over explain WHY.
If you and your wife want to go to the movies thursday night--or your kids have a baseball game or whatever----just schedule it like an business appointment. PERIOD
DON'T tell your customer " I am sorry, I have to leave by 3:30 because of a family obligation"--that's none of the customers concern--just say' I will be leaving about 3:30 to day because I have a 4:00 appointment'-and then do it.
4)---type of work----you mentioned you are a tool junkie. I never had that problem--but I suspect it is a signal of another problem--you are trying to be too many things to too many people.- think about it-is it really important that you be able to solder pipes, wire a house, paint ,drywall, lay bricks, build cabinets-DO everything---nah1--THINK about what you are good at--and shape your business to reflect that.
you mentioned $75/hour. you have room to move that figure north---but stop divulging it to your customers------ just do it. you will find--- that some of your work--people will happily pay $90/hour for---and other things you will suddenly be too expensive for---and that facet of your business will gradually disappear. Fantastic--you will then be concentrating on better paying work--and doing less of lower paying work
BTw- i read through this whole thread in 2 sittings----it's interesting because overall-most of the people encouraging you have given you pretty much the same advice--just in different words.---the key is to consciously implement it.-----interesting--we ALL have the same experience at roughly the same age or same point in our careers----and discover much the same solution--the key is just taking controll and actually doing it. you have a HUGE advantage-in that people have provided you with a road a map.- If you actually do it-----I think you will be amazed 2-3 years from now---and be mentally kicking yourself that you didn't do it sooner.
Really, Really best wishes to you--it can be done,
stephen
Excellent post Stephen. You make so much sense in such an easy manner. I especially liked the instructions to "not explain WHY". I've tried to get that through to my wife for many years now. She's been getting better but she still creates needless internal conflicts because she "feels" that she owes someone an explanation...which she DOESN'T! I don't do many phone calls, so the scheduling of them wouldn't help me much. Frank does so many phone calls that he needs unlimited minutes. There is no way he could cram them all into one sitting, but that is the nature of his job vs mine vs the type of arrangement you are commenting on. I agree with you: a one man shop has to set up some systems that make sense, streamline calls and handle paperwork. You seem to have mastered the idea. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Stephen,glad you chimed in; I have admired you ever since I read your post here a few years ago describing your 35 hour(?) work week and working within a 20 block radius of your home, in order to be there for your boys.A lot of my business problems stem from a somewhat of a lack of professionalism. I need to set clear definitions of what is me and what is the business. Since I tend to enjoy what I;m doing, end up being overly freindly towards the customer- throwing in little bones, discussing too much personal info.... I will set aside some time for soul searching. Look at my business plan, hasn't been updated in while. THanks
hmj, some excellent advice has been dispensed by many who have contributed to this thread. I didn't see anyone post this quote so here goes. I have never seen a tomb stone with the inscription "I wish I had spent more time at work" At the end of day the real thing that counts is the relationship(s) that we have with those around us, they are far more valuable to our well being than we give them credit for. Economic downturns are no fun to go through many are suffering now and many more will history repeats itself. If you want to pursue this business I would be happy to send you my copy of the book Rich Dad-Poor Dad. I don't agree with everthing thing in the book but there are some important concepts to consider. Get me your mailing address and I will send it your way. Roger
Going back to a real job has been the best decision I've ever made.
Going into business for myself was the second best.
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
HMJ,
You've gotten pretty good advice over the last 60 posts.
Now, it's time to ask yourself some questions:
1. How was your life and relationship before you went out on your own?
2. How was your life and relationship before you went out on your own?
(yeah, I know, the same question twice)
It's really the one question you need to ask first.
Did your wife generally support you in what you did before? Or was any and everything that caused a schedule change or a little stress in your life a reason for drama? Is this an unusually rough spot and after 5 years it's taking it's toll on her and she needs some relief? Or, is this just the cause of drama currently?
My wife couldn't deal with the stress of unsteady income. She couldn't deal with schedules that changed. She couldn't deal with supporting what it takes to make it on your own. My cell phone started ringning every day at 430 to see when I was going to be home. I started avoiding bigger jobs that took longer to pay because money was always an issue and she wanted to see a paycheck EVERY week.
There were other issues when my daughter was sick and we needed healthcare, and then an involuntary mobilization.
But in the end, she supported my business in word only. What she wanted was an $18 an hour factory worker who worked three miles from home and was home every day by 3:30 and never spent one second of time past that working on work stuff. BUT, she also wanted the big house and new cars too!!!!!!
You have to decide.
1. Is it really that bad, but she is supportive and if I make things better, She'll meet me in the middle and it will all be OK?
Then work on the business
2. Is there no way she's ever gonna be able to deal with this but I love her enough to be happy with however it turns out?
Then go get a job. There are plenty out there.
3. Is my life always too much stress for her and no matter what I do, she'll be on my back about when I get home or how much we make and if I start giving in now I'll regret it eventually?
Then paint a BIG RED X on the curb so that she knows where to land when you kick her to it.
I changed my life because the lack of support and the drama caused by her unhappiness was too much to shoulder. I did the the things she asked to make life "Better".
And what did I get? I'm a 42 y/o guy who makes damn near six figures, who will end up living in a crappy 1 bedroom apartment and paying for the $400K house. I'll get to see my girls on weekends and maybe on friday night's I'll be able to go on hot dates with 30 something women who all drag around more baggage than me.
I could have skipped a few steps, still be doing something I love and not be nearly as bitter had I painted the BIG RED X. I hope that's not the outcome you arrive at, but think it thru long and hard first. Because there is no business advice in the world that will compensate for a selfish, childish wife.
robert...... i hope you get to put your decision on hold
i think you should take a deep breath and reconsider your marital situation
i assume you've already tried counseling , right ?
ie: what would dear abby say " can this marriage be saved ?"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Mike,
I'm currently in North Africa until November. This is supposed to be a warm up for the big show but who knows. Either way, I can't do anything until then.
After that? I don't know!
I've passed up good opportunities because of all the drama and I harbor some huge anger over that. Not sure how that passes.
i could hear the anger all the way over here
went thru some issues myself about 15 years ago... i am just thankful we worked things out
i can't imagine being married to anyone else now.......
so.......
hang tough, keep your head down, and don't be hasty to do something you may regret
and yes, i do know how easy it is for me to say.... but then, that's the internet for you....
thank god for al gore Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
no Mike ...
it wasn't 15 yrs ago ... it was closer to 10.
Oh ... U weren't talking about me!
anyways ... like my Dad said at the time ...
"anyone who says they never seriously talked divorce either haven't been married and are lying"
really caught me off guard him saying that ... as I never saw any signs of my parents fighting ... just goes to show ... happens to everyone sooner or later.
we obviously stuck it out ... each improved ... and got wayyy better at being married.
Jeff
and F al gore ... Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
...or as Chris Rock put it, "If you haven't thought about murder, you haven't been in love."View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
God I think we can all relate to that! (Chris Rock statement)
Doug
"I harbor some huge anger over that. Not sure how that passes."Thats an easy one to solve: decide not to harbor anger. Robert, you control you. You are deciding that you want to harbor anger. It's your decision today, tomorrow and every day till you decide to not harbor it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Robert,that is exactly what I am trying to head off. Actually, I left a higher paying desk job [with the Fed Gubment] to strike out on my own. Regular set hours, no OT, lots of holidays and 4 weeks paid vacation. Staying there would have been my end. Words cannot describe the misery. She supported my decision to leave, seeing how it was killing me. Fortunately, my wife is not high or even medium maintenance so I don't have to keep her set in a particular lifestyle. To put my finger on it, I'd have to say she is not against my being self employed, she is unhappy with the long and irregular hours, and how the business creeps into the person life. Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you.
Thanks to everyone who has given me input. Deep down, I knew the answers, just needed a kick in the arse via BT to get things rolling. Family comes first; helll, if I had to, I'd clean toilets to bring in a check, but for know I will be examining the business and what needs to be done in order to give me a life back. Thanks again, I love this place.
hmj,
please don't go out of your way to be too impressed with me.-- 2008 is my 20th year in business--and over that period my earnings have always been rather ho-hum-----most of the time that was by design. i don't think I am very differnt ,in most regaurds, to a lot of the people here. about the first 7 years--I floundered along--always thinking the next year would be better--more referalls and so on. basically i was stuck repeating the same things over and over----never changing the results.
after 7 years--my wife went back to college to become a teacher, my sons were in catholic school and it was time to "man-up" and get the job done. If my wife had been a teacher all along( like she started out to be when we went to college the first time in 1980)----frankly i don't know if I would have ever made the changes I did.
but i thought hard about it-decided the number of referalls were never gonna change much-what had to change was what I DID with those referalls------I concocted a game plan--and put it into action.
about 3 years after THAT--is when i arrived here at breaktime. Much to my relief( really you have no idea how MUCH relief!)-- mike smith was here-and a guy named sonny lycos----those 2 guys were talking about some of the same things i had already suspected-and had already put into action--and boy-oh-boy was I happy to learn I wasn't alone--that these things worked for other people
not knowing anybetter I had just "re-invented the wheel"- I really owe a lot to mike smith---not so much that he put ideas into my head---but that conversations with him helped me work out ideas in my own mind------and some years later- i drove one day up to Calvins, near toledo to meet mike in person,shake his hand and thank him in person
the important thing is--- you can consciously develope a game plan, put it into practice-and if you have thought it through--it WILL work
If a dummy like me can do it--believe me, just about anybody can.
untill recently-- my game plan was designed to maximise my free time----so i could be there for my sons--money for there educations being second place.
but now-- both sons are in college, within a year or so the financial responsibilites for THAT will be over---and at present, I no longer have a need for all the free time my " business model "historically has generated
so---it's time to once again---- "re-invent the wheel"---as luck would have it-- mike smith is STILL here to bounce ideas off of---and some of the things we discussed years ago--but i didn't put into action THEN because they were not relevant at the time-----are now Relevant. I gotta fill up the free time---there are only so many hours/week i can spend biking, only so many miles I can run, only so much quarter sawn white oak I can bodger(LOL)---- but I do have a new goal of 3 small endowments for 3 small scholarships I would like to start----and being in business makes things like that possible in a way a job probably would not--------------- Very best wishes to you, get out a pencil and a legal pad--and get to work!
stephen
I hope you can find the solution.
I skimmed through the thread so maybe this has been said, but do these fights, stresses, fussing, and anger happen regularly, say .........once a month?
Lot of good advice, but I will double and triple the advice to draw a regular salary, and operate your home finances and business finances on a budget.
Another point that helped in the past was realizing that DW and I communicate in very different styles. I think in my head and speak when I have decided something. DW does her thinking out loud. Which frustrates the heck out of me 'cause while she is only thinking, I interpret it as having been decided. So I ignore a lot of it and then get accused of not paying attention...............and so it goes.
I don't know that I would go back to working for another contractor, but I wouldn't be opposed to switching trades. I also had a discussion with a construction related business about a part-time sales job within the last couple weeks.
Good luck with it.
Bowz
What would you be selling? Is that something that you are interested in or talented at? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well the discussion started when I stopped in a Kitchen and Bath shop, in a town near our northern house. As you may recall DW took a job a year and a half ago in northern Wisconsin and I am still working down here.
I stopped in just to get a feel for the area, probing how the market is up there, doing a little networking, and seeing if they are interested in having me sub any work.
Ended up by finding out they will be looking to add someone in spring part-time that may grow into full-time. So it is selling cabinets, and kitchen and bath remodels. That is as far as it went. But I am still researching it.
Am I good at it? Hmmmm..... I figure I'll never know unless I try right? It's a long way from a done deal, but it has me intrigued. Every year I get to take about 100 to 120 leads and cull them into 30-40 projects, and have been doing that for a number of years. (last two years leads are down though)
Bowz
Bowz,
Would that K&B shop be Frasier's, by chance?
Brudoggie
No it wasn't Frasier's, I had talked to them a while back. This place was a little further north, but I don't want to say who.
If I were to make the move north, and stay on my own, Frasier's seems like a good place to hook up with. The plumber I use here knows them from the plumbing end, and one of my mentors used to go to the national K&B show with Larry the owner.
Still looking things over from a bunch of angles. Work, family, opportunities, etc. I had spent a day and a half bumming around Eagle River, Woodruff, and Minocqua.
Bowz
Bowz,
Yeah, Larry is a top notch guy. He runs a good operation, as does his brother the plumber.
I've had the good fortune to work on jobs with them in the past.
That area seems to be still growing, with construction work to be had. Things are pretty slow over here, on the UP border. I'm often the only guy in the local lumberyard, in the morning.
Good luck! The "Northwoods" is a great place to live, particlarly if you like outdoor activities.
Brudoggie
It sounds like you are good at it and I dont' see the downside to doing that part time, unless it messes you up because of regulatory considerations. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hey,
I was thinking of you reading this thread.
Good to "see" you.
Eric[email protected]
Yeah, kind-of funny,
After I found out about it, I thought, "I might have to E-mail Eric with some questions about how he handled the change"!!!
Bowz
I'll drop you an email over the next couple of days.
Don't get ito a situation where in a year or two, you will realize that your talents are being under-utilised.
Eric[email protected]
HMJ, after being in your situation (GF instead of DW tho) through most of my 20's I have been an employee for the last few years. It's great (mostly). Someday I'll start a real business, and have great business minds here like Mike Smith, Stephen Hazlett, and Blue, to lean on when that time comes.
For now, I get to do the things I'm good at, and other people--who are very good at their jobs--do sales and bookkeeping. We are design-build and have good architects and good carpenters (I was a foreman, now a designer.) Because we all do what we're good at, we get better jobs than someone who's trying to do it all. The pay is regular. Although my hourly pay looks smaller than it did when I was a sole prop, I've done leaps and bounds better financially since I've been an employee.
And it makes the wife happy. She likes regular pay and regular hours. We have an agreement that when we have a few more things payed off and she's done with her master's degree, in two or three years, it will be the right time for me to start a business. Until then I'm watching and learning from guys who have been struggling with the same things the rest of us are, for a lot longer than I have.
So, which parts of the job do you love, and which parts would you just as soon put aside? Chances are the parts you love are the parts you're good at. Get a job at a company where you can maximize those skills and get to work with other guys you like and respect.