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Can a poor dense-pack job be fixed?

mr_pibb | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on October 15, 2009 06:10am

Hi,

Just had my old (but solid) plaster & lathe walls dense packed (Nu.Wool cellulose) by a recommended contractor. They filled their 2″ holes with foam plugs, but there were some larger holes (approx 4″) that I was going to patch with pieces of drywall. As I started to patch the holes after they left, I felt noticeable air movement coming from one of the holes. I easily poked my finger in, and realized that it was effortless to push a whole bunch of material further into the cavity (as far as my fingers could reach). I soon realized that it was like this all over – too bad I already patched a bunch of the holes. I called the sales guy, and asked what they could do to make the situation “right”, and he said that he’d come out and take a look.
My question is, once a wall is (sort of) filled with cellulose, is it possible to get a tube in again to dense pack it? I thought the big advantage to cellulose dense packing was that it was an air barrier, but I wouldn’t think this would be the case if it’s not packed in.
Thanks for your help!

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Replies

  1. rez | Oct 15, 2009 06:45am | #1

    bump

     

  2. MikeSmith | Oct 15, 2009 08:30am | #2

    was it a 1-hole blow....2=hole , or 3-hole?

    on a lath & plaster, i'd start out wiyh a 2-hole  and see how well it was working

    Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
    1. mr_pibb | Oct 15, 2009 01:42pm | #3

      It was one hole at the bottom. Ahhh! So are you saying they could put holes in at the top and middle? Since the fill was also very loose below the holes on the bottom, could they also jamb the tube downward (in new or in the few existing holes that I didn't patch yet) and pump more cellulose in? These might seem like silly questions, but I've never used one of these machines, so I don't know how it behaves. Didn't see the machine, it was in a huge truck, and it was LOUD, so I'd assume that it wasn't underpowered.
      I REALLY wanted to do this myself, but I couldn't find anyone around Chicago that rents blowers powerful enough for dense pack (home centers just have the ones for attic fluffing). BUYING a machine (used) for over 4K (and then having to sell it) didn't seem to make sense. Plus, a guy in the field told me that someone with experience should do it. Although, as usual, it appears that I'm paying someone to either learn how to do a job that I could learn how to do myself (or do just as poor of a job, for less $$), or they just don't do a good job, for whatever reason.
      I'd be happy to pay the place for whatever extra materials they use.
      I want to be fair to them (and myself); I just want to figure out how to get them to do the job right, so I can patch the holes, and move on to the next of 500 projects (with at least a little more warmth - or coolness in the summer).
      Thanks again for your help!

      1. calvin | Oct 15, 2009 01:49pm | #4

        More than one hole is necessary to be able to access the cavity and to let the air out as the fill enters.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

        Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

        http://www.quittintime.com/

         

        1. mr_pibb | Oct 15, 2009 02:01pm | #5

          So does this mean that these guys had no idea what they were doing?
          Should I even trust them to come back? House is over 100 years old - could that mean that it might be leaky enough so that 1 hole might work?
          Thanks!

          1. calvin | Oct 15, 2009 02:39pm | #7

            Could be they were a crew that just blew attics.

            The couple jobs I've had done from a local insulator would do as Mike mentioned, at least a couple-sometimes 3 holes.

            Know that one time with a lot of hose and the smaller 1-1/2'' nozzle they had trouble with the hose getting clogged gettin it up into a high 2nd story walls.  The attic blowing with the wide open 4'' hose was no problem.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

            Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

            http://www.quittintime.com/

             

        2. MikeSmith | Oct 15, 2009 02:09pm | #6

          the other thing they should have done is a test wall... measure one wall....

          figure out the theoretical volume that wall will hold.... blow the wall... take a bag count... then compare  actual to theoretical... you can calculate density from that

           

          they should give you a bag count for the whole job... the wall area x the depth - the studs and  blocking  = the volume

          bags x lb/bag = total lbs used on your job

          total  wall volume  to total weight = actual installed density

           

          doesn't sound like you got what you paid for... but  you'd know more about that than meMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

        3. MadisonRenovations | Oct 16, 2009 03:48am | #20

          >More than one hole is necessary to be able to access the cavity and to let the air out as the fill enters.When I had it done, they used one hole near the top and inserted a tube in the hole, then backed the tube out as they went. They started by putting the hose up to the hole and letting it drop in and stop when it got to 2-1/2 pounds (per something), and I said that might be dense at the top but not the bottom, so with a lot of griping they took out the "insertion tube." I had a thermal scan done after, and there were some light spots that they came back for. They missed the completely empty one...The holes were 2-1/2" or so, as was the original tube. The insertion tube attachment was smaller, maybe and inch or 1-1/2" in diameter. I thought the air would go out the hole.---mike...

          1. calvin | Oct 16, 2009 05:22am | #21

            Just reciting what I've been explained by the installers on maybe a half dozen jobs.  All done by the same company.  I know that the packing can be pretty forceful-easily bulges out broken lath/plaster if left in too long.

            I'm sure there's varying techniques in that biz.  More than likely several that reach the desired end.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

            Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

            http://www.quittintime.com/

             

          2. MadisonRenovations | Oct 16, 2009 06:22am | #22

            Actually, I've heard that plaster and lath blowout is a mostly a myth, unless there's an area that's a covered penetration that wasn't patched properly. The lath has so much rigidity that it won't go anywhere. It's not like a drywall screw that went in too deep that can push through the blueboard. The spacing between the lath is probably too small for cells to push out the plaster. Plus, if you have that setup, the plaster is probably horsehair, which binds it together. I went inside when they were filling and nothing budged in the slighest.My belief is that the plaster and lath scare is to avoid having to do more work.---mike...

          3. MadisonRenovations | Oct 16, 2009 06:24am | #23

            by the way, they did come back to rework some areas, and they spent a good long time on it, but I wasn't following what they were doing. So apparently, some rework can be done. In this case, the penetrations were from the exterior.---mike...

          4. mr_pibb | Oct 16, 2009 06:30am | #24

            The sales guy hasn't called back yet. I'll call the number on the bill (which came today), and tell them what's going on. Been spending all my time since I've gotten home researching all this so that I can handle the conversation with him as rationally as possible.There IS balloon framing in the front of the house! They must've added the non-ballooned-frame kitchen/bedroom part on later. Wonder if this used to be a store or something - front part seems too small to have been a house...
            Anyway, I made a hole close to the floor in a corner bay, stuck some fish tape down, and ran into some fluffy cellulose.
            Come to think of it, this is above the bay where they were worried about a basement or attic leak. I should probably make some more holes just to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and confirm that ALL the stud bays go all the way to the 2nd floor. House is extremely weird - seems to have been a lot of bizarre things that it's gone through in the past 115 years.The karg.com site seems to have a lot of useful information. One of the PDFs (from 2005) illustrates three ways of using the one hole method. I've read other docs from other people (who SEEM like they know what they're talking about) refer to many different methods (and amounts of holes), which supports what you've said, Calvin.frammer52 - are you referring to sections 460.15 & 460.17 under Title 16: Commercial Practices of the "Electronic Code of Federal Regulations" http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=0d1fafa8475e23bcc2fedf1aae4d0589&rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.4.58&idno=16#16:1.0.1.4.58.0.38.15 ?
            The sales guy DID give me some Nu.Wool and cellulose -vs- foam -vs- fiberglass pamphlets. Only relevant thing I can find in it are two lines which state:
            "Density (settled): 1.6 pcf"
            "Thermal Resistance 3.8 R (in.) (HH-I-515-E)".
            Neither of these have much meaning to me, other than the 3.8 R value. But it doesn't say anything about a recommended density. My conversation with the salesman was always about "dense pack cellulose", and from what I've read, that always implies a density between 3.2 & 4.0 lbs/Cu Ft. As for section 460.17, I received no receipt of any kind.
            Other than using this for leverage in small claims court, is there any other way I can use this to my advantage?MadisonRenovations - when they came back to do the "light spots", did they just drill another 2" hole, and pack more in?Griffin12 - that's a good idea for me to think of it as "renting a machine and operator" for next time.
            splintergroupie - you're just inspiring me to do the rest of the work myself - for sure! Although my helper will only be 64.Thanks to all!

          5. MadisonRenovations | Oct 16, 2009 08:31am | #25

            I actually don't know what they did. I thought they had come to fill in the few stud bays that showed up light on the scan, and be done with it, so I didn't pay much attention, as I was busy with things inside. Then when I noticed that they must have been doing more than that, I thought they were just checking some more and would be done soon. After a while, I noticed they were still there, so they must have been doing something.The original fill took two days, and I was paying close attention that first day. The side of the house with issues was done on the day when I wasn't around, so I'm hoping it was just that side that wasn't as packed, and they did some more. I think the whole side was probably light, since they were having problems with the machine clogging the first day. I think they just shoved the tube in since it didn't appear very dense, dialed up the rate and withdrew steadily, adding some unknown amount of cellulose to the existing, which added up to more than before.According to the installer, modern cellulose has binders that prevents settling if above 1.5 or so pcf. I don't think that density is enough to stop airflow, but if you could stop the flow, you might have enough R-value. However, it seems that your sheathing is leaky. If you could make a tight air barrier on the inside (caulk, etc.), then it might be okay.---mike...

          6. frammer52 | Oct 17, 2009 01:08am | #28

            FTC regs:

            you are an installer, you must give your customers a contract or receipt for the insulation you install. For all insulation except loose-fill and aluminum foil, the receipt must show the coverage area, thickness, and R-value of the insulation you installed. The receipt must be dated and signed by the installer. To figure out the R-value of the insulation, use the data that the manufacturer gives you. If you put insulation in more than one part of the house, put the data for each part on the receipt. You can do this on one receipt, as long as you do not add up the coverage areas or R-values for different parts of the house. Do not multiply the R-value for one inch by the number of inches you installed. For loose-fill, the receipt must show the coverage area, initial installed thickness, minimum settled thickness, R-value, and the number of bags used. For aluminum foil, the receipt must show the number and thickness of the air spaces, the direction of heat flow, and the R-value

             

            The link:

            http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=cb66a61ae5c0b2a136f438291a8f6cd3&rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.4.58&idno=16#16:1.0.1.4.58.0.38.13

          7. Piffin | Oct 17, 2009 10:05pm | #32

            ""Density (settled): 1.6 pcf"
            "Thermal Resistance 3.8 R (in.) (HH-I-515-E)". "Less than 2# you did not get denspak, further, I doubt you have R3.8/in. That is the rate fro settled loose fill.Yours is obviously not yet settled.
            I am wondering if the very reason why they only cut holes at bottom is so you don't see the gap created by settling from the top.Part of the otehr problem may stem from this being balloon framed. A lot of this cellulose may have gone into the interfloor frame area. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          8. Clewless1 | Oct 19, 2009 04:01pm | #36

            Balloon framing could mean problems as insulation may go into the floor space instead of the wall cavity and in spite of documentation/receipt that one poster elluded to, you may not get the insulation where it is supposed to be.

            If you are really concerned, request the documentation and make sure you know what dense pack PCF is supposed to be. Also ... consider the thermal scan. May cost you $100, but it may be well worth the peace of mind.

          9. mr_pibb | Oct 21, 2009 06:48am | #37

            The sales guy came yesterday to see what I was complaining about. I showed him how easily you could push the cellulose further in to some of the existing (unpatched) holes, and made a new small hole in the wall (between the lathe) so we could poke an unsharpened pencil in and see how tightly packed things were. He didn't exactly acknowledge that the cellulose wasn't "dense packed", but he didn't act like I was being completely unreasonable either. He said that he wanted us to be satisfied with their work. I asked what they could do to, and he said they could drill more holes, and that he would get back to me about setting up a time when someone could come out and do an infrared scan (when it gets colder out). I told him that this time I would want to be playing an active role while the work was being done. I also mentioned that one of the people that did the "energy assessment" of our house agreed that you shouldn't be able to easily poke a finger in to the cellulose. He said that the assessors were "good people", and that he would be in touch with them. The guy seems pretty down to earth and sincere.
            I called the energy assessors (who recommended the insulators) right after to let them know that all hope didn't seem lost for me and that the insulators wanted to work things out. The guy had to call me back after he wrapped up his current phone call. About 45mins later, he called me back on his cell phone, and our conversation pretty much boiled down to this (paraphrased):
            "The state of Illinois is grossly inadequate when it comes to policies and legislation concerning the education, certification, and monitoring of people who install cellulose (in walls, at least). When it comes to the definition of (and what a good part of the U.S. acknowledges IS) 'dense pack cellulose' (3.5 - 4.5 lbs/cu.ft.), Illinois is pretty much clueless. So although what I ended up with doesn't sound like it's near 3.5 lbs/cu.ft, the installers weren't trying to be dishonest. Things are getting better, but it's just unfortunate for me that I'm trying to get this done now."My only issue is that this would've been good to know before I hired someone, and that it was ABSOLUTELY necessary for me to make sure that the professionals I was hiring were at least as knowledgeable about densepack as I (a non-professional) am.
            I'm not sure what the problem is with Illinois. It's true - there really doesn't seem to be that many companies that install cellulose (lots of fiberglass; some foam), and none of the home centers or rental places (in Chicago) that I contacted had any idea what dense pack cellulose was. Actually, no one I've talked to (aside from the energy assessors) has known anything about dense pack. The only reason I know about it is because of the energy assessors, Bruce Harley's book (very informative - I wish he would come out with an updated version), the karg site, FHB, a few other websites, and all of YOU. As far as the (apparent) ignorance of my home state, has anyone from Illinois (or other parts of the country) seen things differently? Any of you entrepreneurs out there who know their stuff, and who can educate people as to the advantages of doing this right could really clean up in this area (unless there's some sort of conspiracy going on...)

          10. User avater
            mmoogie | Oct 21, 2009 02:18pm | #38

            I'm not an insulation guy, and never want to be one. But until now I wouldn't farm it out to anyone else. Until this year I never came across anyone in my area who knew what dense-packing is. I finally found a vendor who does, and I hope never to have to do the insulating myself again. In short I think your experience is pretty typical.Steve

  3. BoJangles | Oct 15, 2009 02:43pm | #8

    It sounds like you have a bad problem.  I don't know how you could fix it other than to suck the stuff out of the walls and start over.  Over time, it will undoubtedly settle and you could add more to the top, but that is a hit and miss method for sure.

    One of the basic principles of dense packing cellulose, is that you must have a place for air to escape and leave the material behind at the proper density.  This is one of the ways that using a product like Insulmesh on exposed walls allows you to get it packed densely. 

    As Mike pointed out, you should always keep track of how much insulation is actually being packed into a certain sized cavity.  Once you are sure the method is working, you can proceed from there.

     

    1. mr_pibb | Oct 15, 2009 04:33pm | #9

      This is what I was dreading.
      Haven't paid them yet.
      I know at this point, if they make things right, it'll be hard for them to make a profit. But if I had my own company, I would think my reputation would be more important than taking a hit on a job. Maybe I just don't get it - so far, practically everyone I've been forced to hire to do something has done something REALLY wrong. But that's another thread...Not sure what my chances are of getting the company to agree to suck cellulose out and start over.So cranking up the pressure of the machine and trying to force more in through new holes would be futile?Thanks again for everyone's help!

      1. FHB Editor
        JFink | Oct 15, 2009 04:42pm | #10

        So you're saying that this was a one-hole job, and that the hole was at the bottom of the wall? Aye carumba. Don't pay them a cent.Suck it out and start over.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial

      2. Griffin12 | Oct 15, 2009 04:47pm | #11

         A lot of these older houses had plenty of diagonal bracing, so getting a wide open stud bay may not be so common. I have not tried this method, but if you have lap siding perhaps you could remove a few boards for better access. I believe in this instance you will need to "work with" (i.e. think for them) the installers to get a correct installation.

      3. frammer52 | Oct 15, 2009 10:41pm | #16

        Did you know that there is a federal requirement for insulation contractors to follow and give you?

      4. BoJangles | Oct 16, 2009 01:11am | #19

        So cranking up the pressure of the machine and trying to force more in through new holes would be futile?

        You could certainly try it and see what happens.  Obviously they had no idea what they were doing or you wouldn't have the result you have.  Sounds like you may end up drilling a lot more holes if you are going to try and pack more in there.

        What did the guy say when he came out to look at the finished work??

  4. User avater
    Luka | Oct 15, 2009 05:07pm | #12

    A 100 year old house ?

    Are the walls balloon framed ?

    ..It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime

    1. mr_pibb | Oct 15, 2009 06:29pm | #13

      Built in the 1890's - The back part of the house isn't balloon framed for sure (haven't insulated this part yet). In the front of the house, where the work was done, they had an issue with one of the bays where the guy wanted to look in the attic & basement for a big pile of cellulose (there wasn't). When I asked him later what they found, he said that it eventually filled up. I'll put a hole in the upstairs tonight to see what the deal is. Not sure if part of the house IS balloon framed, and they didn't want to give me more material than what the quote was for... No use second guessing until I look in upstairs wall.Griffin12 - when I got estimates a few years ago (babies put things on hold for a bit), EACH of the people giving an estimate wanted nothing to do with removing aluminum siding, and doubled estimates if work was to be done from outside (with a bunch of caveats on top)... From what I've read, working from the outside seems common - not sure what the deal is with Chicago area (besides all the crooked politics).
      Between "thinking for them" (when one of the main reasons I hired them was because they were supposed to be the experts), and Justin's suggestion insinuating that trying to blow more in WOULD be futile, I'm now wondering if the best way to deal with this is to buy my own stinking blower & hoses (lots and lots of money), suck everything out with a shop vac (with cellulose hose), re-use what I sucked out (empty shop vac in to hopper until it's full, empty hopper by blowing it in to a previously sucked out bay). I guess this would still be easier than tearing walls down to studs and using closed cell foam. Disposing of the plaster & lathe and cellulose and the dust seems like much more of an ordeal. Not to mention the fact that I kind of want to preserve the original walls with the animal hair plaster and everything.
      Do you really think they deserve NO money?

      1. Griffin12 | Oct 15, 2009 07:46pm | #14

         Being in the insulation business, unfortunately I understand what the problem may be with the installers. Most often the guys they sent out are trained to hold the hose and stock the machine. They are worried about "get er done" and going home. Unfortunately to get a good job you have to be "involved". Look at it more like you are renting a machine and an operator.

         Being involved in construction for 20 years, I have a do it all attitude and I want to make sure it is done right. I rarely have anyone do anything at my house (much to the dismay of the wife) but when I do I throughly research what they are going to do before hand. If during their work they hesitate, I step in and suggest another way. So, as far as the aluminum siding goes, take it off yourself before hand or have someone else do it. Be ready to tell them exactly what you want done when they arrive and supervise them along the way. True professionals do not need supevision, but they are unfortunately rare in insulation.

         It is unfortunate that you cannot just simply hire someone and they will get it right and all you have to do is write a check. I know guys I would hire to work on my house and pay them before I even inspected the job and have no concerns. But, in my experience insulation is a different animal.

  5. splintergroupie | Oct 15, 2009 09:30pm | #15

    FWIW...I dense packed my own house with lath & plaster walls with one hole in the middle-height of the bay. I used a machine from Home Depot ("Cocoon" brand), which was missing a damper to control the air:cellulose ratio. After making a damper out of a spare piece of Formica to control the cellulose flow, and then necking down the hose to 1-1/2" clear, flexible, vinyl hose, i was able to direct the hose to the bottom of the cavity to fill that first, then turn it up to the top of the cavity (doesn't require removal from the bay or shutting down the machine), and filling the upper half. My partner controlled the on-off switch for when i needed to remove the hose from the wall to reposition. We drilled only one hole per full-height bay. I used an old T-shirt wrapped around the hose at the sheathing to keep the fluff from back-firing.

    Despite all the caveats about Insulmesh and multiple holes for air escape, i checked the coverage against my bag count and hit my mark, plus a bit more. I also had occasion to remove some wall areas while remodeling the interior and found the walls packed hard enough not to shift the insulation at all while i was demolishing the plaster. I've never drilled into an exterior wall or fished wires without finding the bay packed with cellulose.

    Were it me, i'd give the guys you hired the chance to do it over to your satisfaction and get paid, or chalk it up to experience. Then i'd use the money they left on the table to buy bales of cellulose. Around here, purchasing ten bales of cellulose from HD or Lowe's gets you the free use of their blower for the day. It took us two days to blow cells in the walls (1500 s.f house), with the first day largely devoted to figuring out the machine was missing it's damper to control the cellulose feed. The blowers the big boxes lend are plenty strong enough to do the job if you have the feed set correctly.

    If a 50-year-old earth mama and 65 y.o. helper can do this successfully with HD equipment, your chances seem pretty high. If it were me, i'd try to stuff the hose to the top and bottom plates and blow the lightly packed insulation hard before i'd even consider sucking it all out to start over. Just my 2 cents...

    1. frammer52 | Oct 15, 2009 10:43pm | #17

      You aren't just an ordinary earth mama!>G<

    2. MVAgusta | Oct 15, 2009 10:44pm | #18

      On a related note, Lowes seems to be swapping out their Cocoon metal blowers with Intec Force Fiber machines made for chopped fiberglass. With no gate, they are pretty useless for densepacking unless you like clearing clogs every few minutes. They do come with a wireless on/off controller that works occasionally.

      1. splintergroupie | Oct 16, 2009 08:26pm | #26

        Thanks very much for that info about the blowers. I'm building a shop that i will dense-pack, so i'll be careful to see if the machine they have can do that job. I've seen blowers for rent around here, $35/day, but i haven't looked into which brand they are.

        1. MVAgusta | Oct 16, 2009 11:13pm | #27

          Here's what happens when you get a clog, the shutoff doesn't work and there's a light rain outside.

          1. ajs | Oct 17, 2009 07:45am | #29

            Something about half that messy happened to me. Then before I had time to clean up, I had to go to the post office before it closed. Good for a few laughs.

  6. curley | Oct 17, 2009 05:00pm | #30

    I'm not a contractor, but I dense packed my new addition. Somewhere on this site I found a comment about how many pounds of cellose it takes to dense pack a certain volume-wall cavity. The good contractors know this in their heads. So much wall space equils so many bails.

    I used that number to buy number of bails I needed. I figured if I ended up with extra bails, then I didn't do it right...............

    Your bill should reflect how much material the guys used to fill your wall.

    or.....How many bails/pounds did the guys use????

    on a funny note........I'm filling the wall and I'm thinking,"Boy, it should fill by now." I go outside where my service comes into the house and there was a 1" hole and I blew a good  amount across my back yard. Have you looked the house over carefully that some hasn't blown into the crawl space etc. ???

     

    1. mr_pibb | Oct 17, 2009 08:16pm | #31

      Not sure how much they used - no receipt (see Fed regulations above ^ ). I (foolishly) trusted them, and wanted to let the (recommended) pros do their job. I don't appreciate someone second guessing everything I do in my job, so I wanted to treat them the way I'd want to be treated. With all the other bad experiences I've had hiring people, you'd think I'd know better by now...
      Talked to the salesman - left him a message and he called me right back. He's coming here early next week. All I want is to have cellulose installed densely enough so that it's an air barrier (an air barrier is important to me - if I couldn't get that with dense pack, I would've gone with foam), and to pay a fair price. If it means patching a bunch more holes, it'll be worth it. Still gnawing at me about whether or not I should really go through the ordeal of sucking everything out and starting from scratch, and if it would make a noticeable difference as opposed to just making, say, 3 new holes per bay, and jamming more cellulose in.
      Also should've posted here first to confirm that the "pros should be the only ones to install dense pack" & "machines from the home centers aren't powerful enough" myths simply aren't true.
      I need to install an HRV - do you think I should hire someone to do it? hardee har.
      I'll post again when there's new news. Thanks to all the people (and cellulose monsters) that have posted responses.

      1. curley | Oct 17, 2009 10:19pm | #33

        Again I'm not a pro...........There was an article in FHB on how a guy does dense pack cellulose. He said in the article he uses a 1" rubber hose necked down from the 3" blower and cut a 3" hole in the top of the wall. He snakes the 1" hose down the inside of the wall and as the blower starts to back up he lifts the hose up the wall thus packing the wall with cellose.

        Ask about the method to fill the wall, did they use a smaller hose??

        Many on the site are fans of the mooney wall. Do a search. I believe they use a cloth membrane over the studs and selectively fills the wall as they can visually see the gaps and lack of cellulose. That couldn't be the case for you though. they use the 3" hose.

        I'd find out exactly how many bundles they pumped into the walls. Before you get excited get some facts.

         

      2. prairiescl | Oct 22, 2009 06:54am | #39

        I am a little concerned that you want the insulation to act as an air barrier. That is not what insulation is supposed to do and you really can't expect to pack cellulose fiber tight enough to do that with anything but a hydraulic ram. Insulation is only meant to halt convection. The trapped air is what is doing the insulating. Solid glass is a poor thermal insulator, but spun into fibers, it prevents convection by keeping the warm air from rising. Beyond a certain density, insulation effectiveness decreases.The tar paper over the sheathing is the air barrier. Does your house have this? Nowadays it is Tyvek or equivalent. Once all the holes are plugged, prime the walls with BIN or some other shellac based primer to act as a vapor barrier.I have started to do my own insulation using a combination of fiberglass batting that I pull up into the wall cavity through a slot cut in the bottom of the wall, and topped as necessary with blown-in fiberglass. It is pretty slow but works well. I've only done a few cavities, but I know it will take a long time to do the whole house. The process would require a lengthy explanation and may be served better by a separate thread. Let me know if you are interested.

        1. joeh | Oct 22, 2009 07:19am | #40

          DP cells do act as an air barrier.

          What you're describing sounds like a waste of time and money, why not just DP cells? Hell of a lot easier than what you're doing.

          Joe H

        2. MHolladay | Oct 22, 2009 12:43pm | #41

          Prairie School,

          You wrote, "The tar paper over the sheathing is the air barrier. " I disagree. There is no way to detail asphalt felt (tar paper) so that it acts as an air barrier.

          Any of the following products can be part of an air barrier system:

          - Taped plywood sheathing

          - Taped foam sheathing

          - Taped housewrap

          - Drywall installed with gaskets and airtight electrical boxes.

          However, no-one has ever developed an air barrier system based on asphalt felt.

          1. prairiescl | Oct 22, 2009 04:56pm | #44

            The house is 100 years old, so it's probably felt, I called it tar paper because that's what came to mind. If the felt is overlapped by 2 to 4" and has siding nailed over it, wouldn't it be a reasonable air barrier?

          2. frammer52 | Oct 22, 2009 05:02pm | #45

            Felt is not an air barrier,

            Dense pack cells is an air barrier.  If you want to read up on it there have been several threads on this subject, here and at JLC>

          3. Clewless1 | Oct 23, 2009 04:58am | #51

            Dense pack cellulose is not an air barrier ... it is an air retarder. Tyvek is a barrier. Plywood is a barrier. Foam insulation is a barrier. cellulose ... loose or packed is not. I'm not saying it is far superior to e.g. FG batts, but it is not a barrier.

          4. frammer52 | Oct 23, 2009 04:59pm | #57

            Whatever.

          5. MHolladay | Oct 22, 2009 08:50pm | #50

            Prairie School,
            You asked, "If the felt is overlapped by 2 to 4" and has siding nailed over it, wouldn't it be a reasonable air barrier?" The answer is no — as can be easily shown with a blower-door test.

        3. MikeSmith | Oct 22, 2009 01:34pm | #42

          prairie...you're writing a lot of wrong statements

          and you're proposed method is absurd

          also your preference of fg over cells is an uninformed opinionMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          1. seeyou | Oct 22, 2009 02:38pm | #43

            What if he runs the felt vertically?copper p0rn

          2. Clewless1 | Oct 23, 2009 05:03am | #52

            ???? run felt vertically. Now that sounds absurd, too. Felt is intended to be a moisture control material and possibly drain bulk water that may get wind blown rain behind the siding ... I think. Felt was never really intended to be an air barrier in spite of the fact that adding just about anything to a wall may reduce air leakage ... e.g. siding, sheating, insulation, lath/plaster/gwb, etc.

             

          3. seeyou | Oct 23, 2009 05:07am | #53

            That's an old joke. You had to be there.copper p0rn

          4. prairiescl | Oct 22, 2009 05:07pm | #46

            MikeSmith,
            Go ahead and call out the wrong statements instead of just saying I make a lot of them.Of course my method is absurd. I'm not proposing it, just saying it is what I am doing now. For me doing this on my own home, it is fine. As a profession, one would get old long before getting rich doing this. That's why I didn't bother describing it in any detail.Why is FG the choice for new construction but "uninformed" as a retrofit?

          5. frammer52 | Oct 22, 2009 05:43pm | #47

            Why is FG the choice for new construction but "uninformed" as a retrofit?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

             

            Percieved cost.

            Easier for an installer to put up, ie. no machine required.  Other than that, it has no advantaqges.

          6. joeh | Oct 22, 2009 06:56pm | #48

            For me doing this on my own home, it is fine

            Fine would mean effective?

            FG is a waste of money and in your case a lot of time too.

            You need to do some research before you waste any more of your money and time.

            Joe H

          7. User avater
            mmoogie | Oct 22, 2009 08:38pm | #49

            >>why is FG the choice for new construction but "uninformed" as a retrofit?<<Lowest initial cost. At the expense of highest TCO. Poorest performance in terms of moisture management and infiltration/exfiltration issues.Steve

          8. Clewless1 | Oct 23, 2009 05:10am | #54

            FG is not necessarily 'the choice' for new construction. It is the least expensive ... therefore the most widely used ... that doesn't mean it is the insulation of choice. I'd choose dense pack cellulose ... or even foam over FG, but I allowed first cost to rule my install as well. Yeah, it's a choice, not just 'the' choice.

            It was an informed choice, though contrary to what another poster is implying. I paid my money and took my choice ... FG. I was very well informed, too.

            Your method does seem strange, though. A LOT of work w/ the potential of significant deficiencies in your process (only based, though, on your general description. Why wouldn't one rent a blower and do it w/ cellulose ... likely something to do w/ an occupied house? But you also have FG dust that is like ugh!!

            No answers, just thoughts.

          9. seeyou | Oct 23, 2009 05:17am | #55

            FG is not necessarily 'the choice' for new construction. It is the least expensive ... therefore the most widely used ...

            I work on mostly high end homes and on them, I'm seeing less and less FG used and then only in the walls. Dense pack cells is 1st, foam 2nd, FG third.copper p0rn

          10. Clewless1 | Oct 23, 2009 06:22am | #56

            I would hope a 'high end house' would get at bare minimum the dense pack. If you can afford the expensive house, you can afford efficiency to the max IMO.

    2. rez | Oct 18, 2009 06:25am | #34

      One time I had to repair some curved stairs that had pulled away from their housing.

      Old Victorian and had to cut a hole in the plaster lath to gain entrance and crawl in the stair enclosure underneath.

      Of course the house had blown-in cellulose at some time and I had to gather and remove the equivalent of 5 large garbage bags of cellulose from underneath those steps before I could do anything.

      I can imagine the contractor saying what the hey now when he was pumping that particular bay.

       

      Edited 10/17/2009 11:27 pm ET by rez

  7. Clewless1 | Oct 18, 2009 09:29pm | #35

    If you need proof of the quality consider an infrared scanner that will take a thermal image of the wall and give you an indication of the 'completeness' of the job.

    No idea how this fits into the liability of a contractor. I assume he is licensed, bonded, and maybe insured? If so, he may be on the hook for a true fix.

    Sorry I didn't answer the question directly .... just adding more food for thought. Others w/ more experience can discuss the practicality of the 'fix'.

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