Can Bosch 4100 contractor saw be wired for 220vac?
I just purchased a new Bosch 4100-09 table saw with gravity rise stand and it’s in transit now. Should arrive tomorrow 3/23/12. My old saw went down after 30 years and I got my money’s worth out of it for sure.
All of the table saws I’ve owned in the past had the ability to convert from 115vac to 220 vac to get the amperage down & prolong equipment life. 30 years of service makes me think that it’s a good way to go, especially when ripping thick, hard, or gummy/sappy wood.
After purchasing the saw based on many good reviews, I thought about the voltage conversion and went back to the advertising to see if that was mentioned. No mention at all. Went to the Bosch website to see their info & specs. No mention at all. Downloaded both the manual & part list/diagram. No mention there. Wrote an email to Bosch asking the question. No answer yet. Seems to me that Bosch is way too frugal with information on their web site. Going to pick up the phone & call them for an answer, but may not get through right away.
How about it guys, does any one know if the saw can be wired for 220vac?
Thanks,
Ken
Replies
Why not wait until you get it, then open up the box on the side of the motor. There should be a diagram on the inside cover if it can be converted.
Dan,
I'll certainly do that, besides a man has to know his gear in preparation for the times when things go wrong, as they invariably will. It's due to arrvive tomorrow. The behind the scenes reason for asking the question was that when I ordered it I didn't think to ask about that.
After the sale, I found out the thing was made in Taiwan when I was on the Bosch website and Buyers remorse set in with both feet for many , many reasons. The reality as I see it is that there are SEVERE problems with the quality of products made in Either China OR Taiwan which is just a bunch of rebel Chinese not wanting to deal with 5,000 years of emperors & dictators anymore so they got out of Dodge.
At any rate, I have NEVER had anything made in either of those countries that was adequate in any way, and I chose my words very carefully. As an example, I've been riding Harley bikes since the 60's. Harley always played the "Built in America" card, which I thought was a good thing to do when the Asians were storming the gates to get a piece of ecomnomic pie. Most of us who have been around that long remember clearly when the first goods coming from Japan (after WW II) were cheap but not well made. Japan had not entered it's strong industrial quality image yet, in fact, that didn't happen until the early 80's. South Korea Exactly the same thing, they were still more of an agrarian society that industrialized after the conflict ended in the 50's and they are still in the quality control learning curve to some degree even now, but they've come a long way baby.
Ok, time to put the soap box away but my point is that both China & Taiwan are still very much in that transition stage.
Getting back to the Harley thing, after 40 years of riding their bikes I had to write the new CEO and tell him the the 2009 Road King, which is a very sweet bike, would be my last because Harley now gets ALL of it's after market accessories form both China & Taiwan. The difference in quality is stunning. The original made in the USA Harley parts that were chromed in the USA are still gleaming like a thousands lights in the sky, while the CRAP from TAIWAN all rusts in 3 months given exactly the same care & environment on MY BIKE. What's extremely troubling is that Harley charges 2 arms & one leg for anything made with their name on it. So we are getting screwed by Harley management who buys the cheapest crap they can find in Taiwan and charge 5 times what they pay for it to their customers. Same thing happened with Milwaukee electric tools. After I grew up and learned the difference between cheap tools and good tools, I bought nothing but Milwaukee for years and still own and work with those tools that are 30 years old! But I haven't bought any since they sold their souls (& company) to the Chinese.
Ken
Didn't mean to rant. I'm passionate about manufactureing quality tools in the USA and keeping our jobs here. I will never appologize to anyone about the way I feel.
I'll bet you've got several thousand things in your home that were made in China.
Dan,
There's no doubt about that these days. When I can't find a made in the USA substutute I choke on it & buy it. However, when it comes to tools, there is more at stake in my opinion. I do actively try to avoid buying from China & Taiwan, but I'm OK with Japan & Korea because they've been in the industrial game longer and have proven track records in over all quality. I own some Makita tools which I like and they have been reliable & do a good job so I have no problem there.
My focus is tool quality first, country of manufacture second. For example, when you go into Home Depot or Lowes and buy curtin rods that have hardware included, the hardware is usually not up to the task because someone in the factory decided they were going to save money by buying less expensive metal hardware. When you or I go to put it up for the MRS. or GF and the casings are white oak or hard maple, most of the screws will either strip out or break off because some body put crappy metal (proably pot metal) into the screws instead of what the rest of the industrialized world uses.
The screws that come with curtain rods, et al, have always been crap, ever since I was a kid.
Ken
Being as it's a portable table saw-I would doubt you could convert it. It's meant to be carted around, rather than as a stationary tool where 220/240 would be available.
But then again, this from a dumb carpenter that knows just enough about electricity to not get poked too often.
Calvin,
That is a sound logical premise and is entirely possible and may be someones' thinking at Bosch. The reality today, is that most homes that were built in the last 40 years or so will have 220 some where on the premises for appliances, etc, so for remodel work it's possible to find it on site. Building new construction is of course a completely different kettle of fish.
I was a sawyer with a mobile sawmill capable of being set up on a customers site (residential, commercial, industrial, government). In remote areas like Big Sur on the Califronia coast, when the state asked me to help salvage redwoods that had fallen over,they were able to provide 220 power with a portable generator.
Same thing for residential in redwood territory around Santa Cruz. Property owners who wanted to clear a plot that had standing redwoods on it in the middle of nowhere would hire me to come in and make lumber out of the felled trees (properly permited by the state of course) for the house they wanted to erect. They'd supply 220 via a portable generator for all of the work that was happening not only for the milling but house construction as well.
In the final analysys, my guess would be that the manufacturer would basically choose the most economical motor that would do the job for this price point equipment niche. Not all type motors can be switched out to 220.
Ken
The most likely reason for a manufacturer to make a device that can handle 240V is so they could sell essentially the same model in countries where 208-240V is commonly used (which is pretty much anywhere outside of North America).
Ken
I understand that 240 is in the panel and behind the range or dryer, but that's not exactly just walking over and plugging in.
Most floor refinishers and concrete cutters/core drillers carry an assortment of whips or tails that can be hooked up to panels or appliance recepts, but it is not usual for us remodelers. Therefore, common 130 is what we look for. One can only hope we find a 20 amp breaker on that circuit. The Bosch saw under load will routinely trip a 15. Hook up a vac on the same circuit for dust control and you'll probably be walking back to reset the breaker.
The price Hokuto showed for the two models was pretty close or the same if I remember. But that there's two models suggests to me, two different motors.
I've had the 4000 since it came out. I think you'll like the saw. However, it's not a cabinet saw by any means. It does allow you to come close however.
How about it guys, does any one know if the saw can be wired for 220vac?
In theory it must be possible, since they market a closely similar version, theGTS 10, which appears to be a 220V model of the same 4100-09. One link showing them side by side is HERE
GTS 10:
View Image
Guys,
The box with the saw in it is finally here. By the end of the day I will have: looked at the motor & it's Info plate, terminal connections, and the manual / specs to see what can be learned. I'll take photos so you all can see what's what.
In the mean time I thought it might be interesting to some to get a little better handle on the whole 110/220 thing where wood working tools are concerned.
A very quick read on electrical motors used for woodworking tools: http://sawdustmaking.com/ELECTRIC%20MOTORS/electricmotors.html Good explanation in general about electric motors for tools.
Excellent simple explanation about 110 / 220v by an engineer on the wood web :
From contributor W:
Okay, engineer's turn:
AC Power 101
120 Volt single-phase AC power is just that - you have one 'hot' leg and one neutral. Power is transmitted on the hot leg in a sinusoidal wave alternating (AC = alternating current) between positive and negative voltage 60 times / second (60 Hertz). The neutral provides the return path to complete the circuit back to the power generating point. (Don't do it, but you can disconnect the neutral lead from the plug, connect it to any good ground, and the device will work.)
Now, 220 Volt 'single phase' really isn't single phase - it's two phase. You have two 'hot' legs and a neutral leg. The two hot legs each have the same sinusoidal wave form, but 180 degrees out of phase with each other. When one leg is at the peak of the wave, the other is at the bottom. If you measure between the two hot legs, you will have 220 VAC; between the hot and the neutral you will have 110 volts.
Three-phase power has three legs carrying power, each with the same sinusoidal wave form, but 120 degrees out of phase with each other. When one leg is at the peak of the wave, another is 2/3 the way towards the bottom on its way down, and the third is 1/3 the way *up* from the bottom on its way up. In a generated 230 or 460 VAC 3 phase system, you should always measure about the same 230 or 460 volts between any two legs, (unless your supply power factor is way off).
All of this applies here in the US. Three-phase in Canada, and much of the rest of the world, operates the same but at lower voltages (190 / 380) and at 50 Hz instead of 60.
That's power 101 in a nutshell.
DanH,
In our lives, there are some things that are difficult to pin down as absolutes but we use terms that we believe to be understood in a general sense by others. consider this:
1) In the days before the Electric Utilities formed a national grid, each had it's own monopoly territory to serve and voltages supplied by various sysytems were anywhere from 110vac to 130vac. This led to regional differences that people began to understand as a an approximate equivalent to their own system if it was different. Over time, as some Electric systems were experiencing more growth than others, trading alliances started to bloom which neccessitated agreement on both Voltage & Frequency (yes it varied too or more correctly the allowed variability of frequency had to become standardized). Many people still use that "unofficial" understanding (now that there's a national grid (in most but not all places) that 110 = 115 =120, but we understand we're talking about the "stuff" that comes out those 2 little slots in the wall.
Another thought to consider:
2) The accepted theory of alternating current is that it very closely approximates a sinewave. This is generally what comes from your local utility if you are on the national grid, during normal periods of power flow where no equipment or grid problems exist. Sinewaves are continuously variable voltages out put by a utility generator under normal operation, that have both a positive & negative component of equal magnitude.
The question then becomes what do you pick as a "standard" to express the "usable" voltage from one engineer to another with out having to ask the question that #1 above brings up about what do you really mean voltage wise? The answer lies in a mathematical function called the the Root Mean Squares or RMS for short. The normally accepted Electric Utility PEAK voltage in the USA (at the top of that sinewave is about 170v. The RMS comes out to 120v which is the "accurate" EXPRESSION from one individual to another when both are aware that RMS pins down the "value" that describes the entire sinewave accurately.
You can also check this out for validation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square
I understood precisely what the engineer was saying when he used 110 & 220 because that's part of the "common speak" ,if you will, that most folks will grasp immediately.
Is that better? We're all saying the same thing.
The "engineer" spoke of 120
The "engineer" spoke of 120 and 220v, essentially an impossibility. The second voltage should always be twice the first in a standard US center tap system.
And I'm damn well aware of what RMS means and have known since I was about 12, well before I got my masters in Electrical Engineering.
DanH,
You're right he did start his explanation with 120, my mistake. I agree the value should be double.
No disrespect meant in any way. There's no way of knowing on any forum who knows what.
Ken
The saw was put together yesterday. The wiring is simplicity on steroids: from the wall plug to the ON/OFF switch on the saw and then directly into the motor. There is no terminal box or motor cover plate as in motors I've had in the past. In short, unless you take the motor out & get it out of its housing there's no way to even attempt a conversion.
This is the smallest 4 HP rated motor I've ever seen, it's only a little less than 12 " long and about 4" square. You couldn't even get 1 hoof in there never mind 4 whole horses!
Ken
Ken
And?
apart from the voltage?
Calvin,
I finished getting it together so late that I didn't even turn it on. The blade & riving knife were installed at the factory so all I had to do was put on the blade saftey cover & anti kickback pawls plus assemble the gravity rise stand, which took the most time. I'm impressed with the build quality, it seems quite solid. The fence looks pretty good and that checked out square to both the miter gauge slots & the blade as well. I like the way it locks on both rear & front rails - quite solid.
I did check blade alignment to the miter gauge rails, it's dead nuts on as is the miter gauge indicator. Blade vertical alignment was also dead nuts on. No question about it, they wanted to deliver a saw that was properly setup at the factory. The push stick is big enough to joust with.
The manual says it will take a 6 or 8" dado set and also a molding head. I've done alot of dados on my cabinet saw but now that that I've seen the actual size of the motor on this one, I'm wondering if this little saw will do a long wide dado without heating up & tripping out.I guess we'll just have to test it. One other note on the Bosch 10" blade that came with it. It's carbide tipped and thin kerfed at 1/8". That seems appropriate after looking at the motor size. Old knowledge dies hard. There's nothing like a good ole beefy 5hp 240v multibelt Baldor when you want to rip 8 or even 12 quarter Oak.
Calvin, have you run a dado set on this saw? Any thoughts on that?
If I get time tomorrow, I'll finish some rips that I was in the middle of when the old saw went down and let you know what I think about the power or lack thereof. I've always used the full kerf Freud professional blades before, so it might be time for a change there too. Maybe I'll try a Ridge or Forrest thin kerf. I've heard that the runout on the Ridge 10" blades is the best so perhaps I'll try one.
Ken
Ken
have you run a dado set on this saw? Any thoughts on that?
Nope, I have another saw with the dado set on it. If I did use one on the Bosch-I'd make a new insert and follow their recommendations as to size and limits.
You mention using full thickness blades rather than the thin kerf...............Don't bother to buy the bag for your limited/quick dust collection. The thicker blades (I guess) must produce more than the outlet port can handle-it clogs easier than a thin kerf.
or
The bag is just worthless, you'll need a vac or what I do when outside and wish to just contain the bulk of dust out the port-I use a section of Fein vac parts (bent handle end) and direct it down into a drywall bucket.
I think that section of the shell that the grommet goes through is the "box". It probably comes off somehow, though it does appear that it's unlikely you'd find any 240V wiring options in there.
I'll ask you to reconsider
I'll ask you to reconsider your assumptions, for a few reasons.
First off, 'watts' are watts, and the much-ballyhooed 'savings' by trading amps for volts are, IMO, greatly exaggerated.
Second, all the half-baked theory tossed out in this thread skips over one simple fact: you won't know until you have the motor in hand and can read the nameplate. There's more than one way to manufacture a motor, and not every design is adaptable.
Motor details and electrical theory aside, what also matters are the controls. You wouldn't want a short to result in your not being able to turn the saw off, would you? Yet, such is very possible if you have a switch on only one of the two "hots." For that matter, the case could remain 'live,' even when the switch is in the 'off' position. It all comes down to the choices made by the designer.
If you wanted a 220 saw, you should have bought a 220 saw. (BTW, due to differing industry norms, you'll most likely have to buy a '230v' saw for use on a '240v' system)
Regarding the sundry "engineers" here: go back to polishing your slide rules and stop trying to hurt people. That's exactly what will happen if you continue to pass your ignorance off as expertise. The various statements regarding power distribution were incomplete or in error; comments on the control issue were lacking; and there was no mention of nameplate ratings - which follow a different set of rules from the power company. Nor was there any mention of the necessary change in over-current / overload protection that accompanies a change in voltage.
The only 'correct' answer is to talk to the guy who made it. Better yet, buy it right the first time.
I am forever amazed at the hubris of folks whose ignorance is exceeded only by their arrogance in assuming that they automatically are smarter than either the real experts, or the marketplace.