If I’m in the wrong place, sorry. I’m from the cookie side.
My A/C compressor needs to be replaced. I live in Texas, I can manage without a furnace but not A/C. I have a York if that matters. I have one estimate of $1850 to replace the compressor, $9450 to replace the outside unit plus the inside unit, which is in the attic. If I just replace the compressor it only comes with a 1 year warranty 30 days on the labor. My question is about freon/puron. If I replace the compressor I will continue to use freon, which may not be easy to find in a couple years. I have another guy coming tomorrow for an estimate but I would like your thoughts on the freon issue.
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Replies
Rae:
Did the compressor come come apart? I have heard/seen problems in the past where the compressor fails and sends pieces of the failed compressor through the condensor/evaporator which will reduce the efficiency of the unit if it blocks them. Also if the failed pieces make their way back to the new compressor it can eventually take it out. I would suggest at a minimum talking to your A/C repairman about this issue and see if there is a filter to catch these items.
That's a question I'll ask the repair guy tomorrow. Something blew/failed and all the freon whooshed out. But just refilling the freon is not an option.
i'm really shocked at the price for replacement,almost 10k for a condensor and a coil?????????
as far as freon vs puron. r22 should be around for quite a while,though as it phases out it will get higher. but to tell you the truth i would guess that 90% of ac units over their lifespan will never need any added. thats my experence with rentals and all those units.
also when you buy a new unit it will be precharged with freon.
what size of unit are you talking about.
be sure to have a plate of warm cookies during estimate time........................ larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
It's a 4 ton unit, 10 years old. Cookies in the oven as we speak. In a very hot kitchen I'll add.
What should I ask the repair guy tomorrow? I hate for repairmen to know how clueless I am.
now i'm just throwing this link out there for you to have something to kind of go buy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Ton-Air-Conditioner-Conditioning-A-C-AC-Heat-Pump_W0QQitemZ380091202944QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item380091202944&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
this isn't the greatest,but it's probably better than your 10 year old unit. labor to change out a condensor and a coil would take 2 days if the guy takes a lot of naps,so this is why i thought 9k sounds high.if i was having a 4 ton unit installed i would not expect it to go over the 5k mark by quite a bit. i get 3 tons installed here with a new furnace,a coil,condensor unit for less than 4k.
but things that you need to know are ,what brand,[the goodman i linked you to is lower quality, even they will run probably 10 years plus] the seer ratings,the higher the number the less it's suppose to cost to run,and being as your talking about a hot kitchen tonight while the rest of us freeze to death,high efficency may be really worth while for you.a lot of people prefer a scroll compressor and others can tell you what they like. also how long is the warranty?
what do you heat with?gas ,propane,heat pump??might be time to replace the whole deal.
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Natural gas for heat. The quote I have for $9500 is 5 year warranty.
My house is 1400 sq feet with 12 foot ceilings and high pitch root with a huge hot attic. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
well if it's hot on dec 20th,you might inquire about a heat pum,using your old furnace as back up heat. around here in ks heat pumps are kinda marginal,but are used with a back up heat source.
5 year warranty is on the short side,a lot of manf. will warraty for 10,some do more depending on how top of the line you go.if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
well if it's hot on dec 20th
Well, it was snowing Wednesday 70s yeasterday and today. Forecast to drop to a high about 50 tomorrow, maybe 40s on Monday (morning Wind Chill as balmy as 15-20, with the 30-40 north wind). To then get moderate again by Christmas. Normals for this time of year are 59 & 40.
The problem with recommending a heat pump in the Central Texas climate (and I have no clue where Rae is, she could be upwards of 3-400 miles away) is the number of run hours during the "real" cooling season (when nighttime lows only get to 79 or so). These sorts of freakish days, where the wind goes southerly off the Gulf, and it's clear, the solar gain insolates the house (the low angles striking a lot more wall area, too), are what they are--statistical abberations.
Pain for Rae, having a unit go kaput--but not that uncommon in Texas, either. Especially in 'holiday' times, where houses can get over-full of people, so they can need dehumidifcation. Andd/or the doors are open more often with folk running in an out all the time. Doubling the number of people monkeying with the stat every year for years cannot help either.
And, some houses just seem to be snake-bit for heating plants. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Our weather is all over the place. Last Sunday it was in the 80's and I was making caramels and toffee, hot hot stove. That's when I realized my a/c wasn't working. Tuesday the temp was 25 degrees. Friday it was 75. It's not unheard of to run the furnace and the a/c on the same day. And Christmas Day I'll have a houseful of hot kids and a standing rib roast in the oven but it'll be great anyway.
Our weather is all over the place
That's Texas.
It was 71-72 yesterday, a tad cooler over in San Antonio. Cooled off to right pleasant in the evening. Then, Helotes has one of it's pea soup fog nights. That cleared off by Austin.
It started out in the 70s before lunch, and has come down to 54 now. Forecast to be ugly going to Houston tomorrow.
At least it will be nicer Wednesday & Thursday when I am just over the river from you in Dallas.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Your unit ought not be leaking refrigerant at all. If it is, you have other issues, and ought to replace / repair other parts. A new compressor ought to last a long time.
As far as replacing the old referigerant with a new type ... that is generally not a good idea.
First of all, the system is designed as a system. Change one element, and everything else will not be the best stuff. Other components will need to be changed as well. There can also be compatability issues.
Second, your existing unit is dated. It already has plenty of wear and tear, and even new it was not nearly as efficient as the new ones are. Nor do I know if there have been other changes to your house, if the old unit was sized correctly, etc.
just replacing the compressor will be fine.
The A/C side of your setup consists of the indoor coil and the outside condenser unit. You should be able to flush out the evaporator coil of any bits and pieces from the failed unit, then install the new condenser. Should be fine for a long time as long as the system is clean.
If the whole system is old and worn, maybe its time to replace it all, but that's an on site evaluation.
Something blew/failed and all the freon whooshed out
A failed compressor at only 10 years old is suspicious.
A failed compressor almost never lets the 'freon whoosh.. out'.
Freon whoosing out more likely means somebody in the 'hood sent a BB or pellet or firearm round thru your coil. In that case, you only need to fix the hole, evacuate, and recharge!
A failed compressor, if due to a motor burnout, can fill the system with lots of crud , a flush is needed.
Unfortunately, the world of HVAC is full of hacks. The really good guys do charge as much as you show, the hacks almost as much. The bare compressor may cost as much as $1K. If compressor is replaced, new liquid line filter (and suction IMO) are a MUST.
Insist on a scroll compressor, Copeland scroll the best IMO.
Goodman with a Copeland scroll as an overall replacement is OK, 10 year replacement. Dont let higher priced bigger name brands trash the Goodman name - some were trash in the early 1980's, but not now.
For more in-depth discussion (leave out all $$ figures) go to hvac-talk.com and ask about how to find a reputable installer in your area. List your exact location in TX in your post.
A guy there that goes by 'Robotech' has always given 100% valid comments, others I'm not 100% sure of.
Get these and comments from hvac-talk.com and print them out for the guys giving you estimates.
If any estimator or installer does NOT recommend new filters or purge if compressor burnt out electrically, they are a HACK!.
They should know terms like subcool, superheat, nitrogen purge, thermostatic expansion valve (ask them to explain those terms), etc.
Previous advice on a heat pump if you go the full replacement route is good. You will save $$ over nat gas for 'hopefully' only a few hundred extra $$ on a total new install.
R22 still a viable option. R410A (Puron) still has to 100% prove itself, that mix may just be a stopgap measure.
Hvac-talk is a NO-DIY site so do not discuss the following there -- If you or significant other or relative is handy, consider installing a 'package unit'. All freon or 410A already sealed and checked. You can buy a 5T unit online for under $3K. Only need to have or learn electrical and ducting hookup skills.
I'm in Fort Worth. I am printing out these comments to try to educate myself a little about what to look for and ask. Will check out the hvac.com site. Thanks
if you go with a new unit you can get a goodman 15 seer 410a(puron)matched system and get a 10 years parts warranty and lifetime compressor warranty. The only catch to this is it is only available to the original homeowner and you have to register the unit online at Goodmanmfg.com.Also after 2015 r-22 will no longer be manufactured and will be sky high in price. If you talk to your hvac guy about a goodman make sure you also ask about the free Goodcare warranty that covers labor for 5 years that is available thru the end of March 2009. If I can help with anything else let me know, And I will try to help you.
I'm not the original owner. But I'll talk to the guy tomorrow about this. Thx.
you just have to be the original owner of the unit not the house. As long as you buy the unit you are the original owner and the warranty is in your name. Also if you buy a Goodman unit online the company offers no warranty at all on the unit.I you are wavering between a hp and a cooling only condenser you might want to look at a dual fuel system that uses a hp to a certain temp and uses gas for back up heat or when the heat pump becomes ineffective.
Oh I see, well good,I'll check into that. I've never heard of any one having a heat pump here, maybe it's a northern thing.
The heat pump is mainly a southern thing. I live in South Georgia and about all we use are heat pumps.If you HVAC guy tells you Goodman is going up in price after the first of the year, find another HVAC guy, because Goodman is not having a price increase from the factory. The distributor your guy uses may be going up but not the manufacturer. I know this because I just made our new price book, and I work for a distributor.
My repair guy today said since I have gas furnace he wouldn't recommend a heat pump. If I had all electric, yes.
Unfortunately, the world of HVAC is full of hacks.this is why I always say, find a dealer that been in business since 1975, one that has 30 service trucks, On HVAC you want reputation first, you want somebody that will be around in twenty years, somebody that really cares about honor. So you pay a little more.you get what you pay for.
Unfortunately, the world of HVAC is full of hacks.
So is the construction industry :)
this is why I always say, find a dealer that been in business since 1975, one that has 30 service trucks On HVAC you want reputation first, you want somebody that will be around in twenty years, somebody that really cares about honor. So you pay a little more.
That does not ensure quality.
So is the construction industry :)that why I always say, if they did it right all the time, it would put me out of business.
BTW, best spot on hvac.com to post is in "residential HVAC" in general discussion folder.
edit BTW2 - looked for a good summary of what to look for in a HVAC professional, copied one professional's own description of what he does to gain confidence of homeowner.
Originally Posted by jthom View Image at hvac.com -- in response to a post asking advice on a very expensive system installed by someone who 'botched the job'.
That is why word of mouth is so helpfull and a primary focus with our company.
Yet some times we get a lead for a new install from someone that is not famiilair with our company. We need to show the differences.
Hence the presentation booklet. Shows pictures of jobs, staff, licenses, insurance, customers letters and references.
Lately I have added "case studies". Case Studies are jobs we have gotten involved with to clean up someone elses mess. I have 5 Case Studies in my presentation booklet and the original installing contractors are still in business today- still selling jobs- still installing horror stories.
After 59 years of servicing Eastern Ontario we are seeing more horror stories than ever. Lack of skilled tradesman. More techs going out on their own. The lowest price is the best price. All contributing factors.
The worst part, every job that is installed and creates a thread like this is terrible for the HVAC industry. Buyer beware.
edit 3 - copied the above twice, deleted the 2nd paste
Edited 12/19/2008 10:34 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 12/19/2008 10:37 pm ET by junkhound
Rae. I too live in Ft. Worth, Tx. Unless you have some special circumstance, that seems awfully high. You need need to contact a couple of other HVAC contractors. I just had an old three and one half ton unit (heating and A/C) replaced with a new three and one half ton, 13 SEER Lennox for $4250.00. The pay out on a higher SEER did not justify additional cost. Deal with long time well established companies. Usually there is a reason they have been around a long time. Take your time, Don't get in a hurry. Ask lots of questons. Get the facts.
After Jan.1, 09, you can get a rebate/tax credit from the gov. so you might want to wait until after the first to have it installed. Google it to get details.
Biggest thing you need to concern yourself with when replacing inside and outside units these days is they must match... they must both be 13 SEER.
Evaporator coils are physically larger, sometimes resulting in installation difficulties and extensive rework.
The other thing is the size of the lineset.
Lineset sizes changed with the new 13 SEER equipment.
If you have an old 10 SEER 1.5, 2, 3, 4, 5 ton system, odds are the lineset size is different now on the liquid or suction side.
Make sure the lineset sizes match the new equipment.
If you had a burnout, the junk needs to be flushed from the system... the flush stuff is expensive... and the process (done right) is labor intensive.
The oils from R22 and R410-A are *not* compatible. R410-A will not pick up mineral oil, so any sags in your existing lineset will remain as oil traps and reduce efficiency. Typical residential work is poor at best, and I bet your attic lineset is not without some unwanted oil traps.
Replacing the lineset eliminates the flushing and oil problems.
Make sure the lineset is installed properly for an evaporator above the compressor application.
I won't even get into the installation involving vacuum pumps, micron gauges, proper brazing, nitrogen purging, subcooling, superheat.....
Hack installers will do none of this.
Hack customers do not want to pay for any of this, and then blame the original installers or the equipment when it fails prematurely.
New R22 equipment will not be available after 2010. Replacement R22 will not be manufactured after 2020. Supply will rely on reclaimed refrigerant. The total of reclaimed R22 fell 95% short of expectations in 2007. That means there will be shortages and high prices. International pressure may move these timetables up. Google "R22 phaseout" and read up on it.
Wholesale prices of virgin R22 are up 300% from two years ago at this point.
All current drop in replacements for R22 have some R22 in the mix at this time.
SEER rating takes the whole system into account, so if the system is not installed properly, you will not get your SEER rating- that includes the ductwork.
Choose wisely.
Edited 12/20/2008 6:58 am ET by danski0224
This is a huge help, thanks so much to all you guys. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it, I have tons more info than I did yesterday.
Next guy comes at 9 this morning.
Here's something to compare, although it's more like oranges and tangerines.
Three years ago my heat pump compressor blew up - literally. Fire, the whole works. So I had a new contractor come out, and they replaced the outdoor unit, for 5 grand. They didn't touch the indoors unit. When they replaced the outdoor unit, however, they upgraded from a 12 SEER to a 14. The indoor unit was rated for 12. For the last 3 years, the heat pump would cycle frequently when in heating mode. It turns out the indoor unit couldn't handle the load from the outdoor unit. (That's the best I can offer; I'm not into HVAC)
So, this summer I spent another 3 grand to replace the indoor unit. Works fine now.
Bottom line, mine is/was a heat pump, but even here in the relatively expensive Northeast (Conn shoreline) I spent $8K and got a whole new setup. It was still expensive, you ask me, but...
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
The second repair guy came out, confirmed the compressor has to be replaced. He showed me wires and I forget what all, laminate is off the something. Gosh I tried to remember all this. He said the attic unit is good,no dirty coils.Better to put in a whole new puron system but replacing only the compressor will be fine.The seer won't be the same but he can install something ( forgot the word) on the attic unit that will help. He's going to get me a quote Monday morning for all options. He is someone I used to live next door to, so I kinda know him. Very honest and been doing this a long time. He did say if I just replace the compressor he can still get me a 10 year warranty so that's better. The other guy said 1 year warranty on parts and 30 days warranty on labor.
The temp is going down today so I'm good. Thanks everyone. Big time.
forgot the word
If what he said was "TXV" or "thermostatic expansion valve" on the indoor unit for the AC, you definetly have a good technician.
If he can fit a scroll compressor into your unit for replacement, I'd suggest that even though it may be a few hundred $$ extra do it - just my opinion.
Sounds like you found someone you already trust and who (from what little I know from your descriptions) also knows exactly what they are doing.
Good luck - did he like your cookies??
Remember back in the old days in Illinois, -30F, and the coal delivery man came, Grandma would always have a glass of cinammon spiced warm wine for him (before 0.08% days). That glass of wine always got Grandma prompt service and a few hundred pounds of 'extra' coal. Cookies probably work as well nowadays??
That's the word. I think he'll do right by me. I haven't seen him in several years, kind of forgot about him. The cookies were a hit. I'll talk to him about the scoll thing.
Sometimes a compressor will just fail for no reason... it is a collection of parts.
Other times, there is a cause behind the failure... wire size too small leading to voltage drop (increased amp draw that overheats compressor components- especially the electrical connection on the compressor)... slugging of the compressor with liquid refrigerant at start up due to improperly installed lineset... gradual acid buildup due to excess moisture in the system at start up... junk in the lines from improper brazing techniques during the original installation... are a few that come to mind.
A running burnout will create acidic conditions in the lineset that must be removed. Catastrophic failure will leave bits and pieces behind. Problem is that the acids and pieces are trapped within the oils in your lineset, condenser and the evaporator coils.
Potential causes for the failure must be repaired, and the proper steps taken to clean out what remains. Only then will your repaired system have a long service life.
Lots of luck.
I don't change the filter as often as I should. Don't know if that is a factor. It's really really hard to get to. I have to climb a 14ft pull down ladder that is heavy and hard to pull down. And it's a steep climb. Then once in the attic it's a long walk to the unit and I'm unsure where to step. Anyway it's scary as heck. I always take a cell phone in my pocket I'm so afraid I'll get stuck.
You can probably get someone to install a walkway in the attic.And the HVAC guys would not mind having it either.Don't know how you system is laid out. And I think that per room returns are the best. But sometimes, specially for attic installations, they have one big central return, or maybe only a couple of returns. And the filters are installed on those returns.You might ask and see if that is practical in your case..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe