FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

can you sharpen your pencil?

ad73 | Posted in Business on July 22, 2005 04:10am

Ive been in business for myself since january and things are going prety good.I don’t feel comfortable enough to turn down work so i try to do all i can.

I gave an estimate for a deck to a customer , he called me back and said iwas $3000 higher than the other guy he got aprice from. He asked if i could “sharpen my pencil” a little, I had never been put in that position before so wasn’t sure how to react. I should have said that my price take it or leave it , but he was a referal from a good client of mine so itold him iwould see if i could get the price down a little.

How has anyone else responded when put ina similar position?

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. xhammerandnailsx | Jul 22, 2005 04:17am | #1

    I haven't been in the situation before, but after reading these forums, I've seen ways to deal with it. First, your labor is your labor. You can't work for free.

    If anything, to reduce price, start looking at different materials. I forget the term that the dudes here use, but it's Cost something or another.

    Wes

  2. DavidxDoud | Jul 22, 2005 04:18am | #2

    click here:  59664.1 

    and read thru 187 posts on the subject -

    a good thread,  within the last month -

     

     

    "there's enough for everyone"
  3. TLE | Jul 22, 2005 04:18am | #3

    I would start by sitting down with the client and compare your proposal to the low price.

    Odds are his (and maybe yours) are some what vague in detail.

    You need to make sure that you are actually bidding on the same job.

    If this does not explain the differance and you feel your price is correct, ask him what changes in the scope of the work he will accept to arrive at a lower price.

    Terry

  4. User avater
    JeffBuck | Jul 22, 2005 04:20am | #4

    "Well ... I could probably leave the screws out ... but you'd probably end up tripping over something ..."

     

    or ...

     

    and this one is my favorite ...

    "Who was the other bidder?

    ....

    Oh ... sounds about right ... we're usually a coupla thou above them going in. I tend to include most every possible situation in my first bid ... as to not low ball ... then I can usually stick right to my quoted price. I'd rather bid the truth than have customers mad that I jacked the price up three thou after getting the job ...."

     

    Both are very effective.

    Have fun. Tell the truth ... let them know you are telling the truth.

    Jeff

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

  5. zendo | Jul 22, 2005 04:24am | #5

    My first question would be to ask if all the bids had the same material specs. 

    I think just the way he put it is rude and would tick me off.  I would try not to show that, but back out, probably saying that a whole bunch of bids came in and youll be slammed anyway, and he should take the other guys bid.

    That may open the door to his interest again, even if you dont want it.  They always learn once the other guy builds.

    -zen

    Oh and it sounds like your bidding is on track.... a friend just got bids for a small deck They were 5k, 8k, and 9.5k.... they custom, and quality varies.

  6. UncleDunc | Jul 22, 2005 04:24am | #6

    In my business, it's always time estimates rather than money. My favorite response it to always come back with a larger estimate than the first one. Not so much larger that it looks like I wasn't thinking the first time, maybe 2% to 5%. If they challenge it, there's always some little thing you either forgot or just decided to eat when you did the first estimate.

    The other approach, and probably the right one, is to say, "Sure. What do you want me to take out?"

  7. maverick | Jul 22, 2005 05:22am | #7

    "Geez, I looked closer at the numbers like you asked and I think I ommitted a couple of items from my spreadsheet that will increase my estimate by a couple of hundred, but I'm a man of my word and I will honor the original estimate....."

    If he got your name by referral chances are good you already got the job, the guy is just playing his last card.

  8. 4Lorn1 | Jul 22, 2005 05:24am | #8

    One way of handling it would be to tell him that you could look at the estimate and see if you made any mistakes. Possibly you mismultiplied or used an incorrect figure to make the estimate. Could have happened.

    This has the advantage of saying two things: You are not willing to come down on the price if the figures you used and formulas are correct. Your price is fair. And you are willing to take some extra time, in light of his previous business, to recheck your figures.

    Of course it would be wise to recheck your figures. As long as it isn't too involved and you really want the job.

    You could come down on your price, outside of a mistake, but this is a personal call. One which could be obscured by a claim that you found a mistake in the original estimate. This too being entirely your call to make.

    Either way you look good standing by the method and basics of your estimate even if an error in transcription was made, and corrected.

  9. marlowe | Jul 22, 2005 05:36am | #9

    Ditto what David Doud said.  Nothing wrong with being flexible on price, as long as the buyer is flexible on product.  Can you make it smaller, simpler (omit some of the fancy features), let him do the jobsite cleanup, dig the post holes, whatever else you can think of, or a combination of all the above.   Or can he get you three more deck jobs from friends of his, or sign a contract for a substantial remodel also, or????Negotiation - its give and take, a two-way street. 

    1. DavidxDoud | Jul 22, 2005 07:01am | #10

      Ditto what David Doud said....

      don't think I said that,  but I agree with it....

       

       "there's enough for everyone"

      1. marlowe | Jul 22, 2005 01:46pm | #11

        what I meant is ditto this: "click here: 59664.1

        and read thru 187 posts on the subject -

        a good thread, within the last month - "

        Plus my own 2 cents worth. =}

  10. dIrishInMe | Jul 22, 2005 02:14pm | #12

    $3000 is too much of a discrepancy for a deck job unless it is a $25k deal....  The bid is not apples to apples, but my guess that this prospective customer wants price over quality.  There is always someone who will underbid you and do a $hit job, so just move on and forget about it. 

    Also, if you don't mind me mentioning it, this web site has a spell checker.  Granted you don't care what we think of you, but I'd like to think that you spell check whatever you give your customers.  Not trying to be nit picky - just helping you a bit with projecting a professional image.
     

    Matt
    1. User avater
      EricPaulson | Jul 22, 2005 02:26pm | #13

      $3000 is too much of a discrepancy for a deck job unless it is a $25k deal.... 

      Not so fast there.................Lets say he's bidding against mister moonlighter whose wife brings home all the bennies.

      Moon is figuring $25.00 an hour less than the OP who needs to charge enough to provide himself a decent salary, cover his OH, provide bennies for his loving family and hopefully turn a profit as well.

      If there is 15 days in the job; and there well could be, there's your 3 g's.

      Lesson learned is that there will always be someone willing to sell himself cheap and you need to find a way to convince the HO that they should hire you instead.

      One of the myriad of reasons why this industry sucks a big fat bone sometimes.

      EricIt's Never Too Late

      To Become

      What You Might Have Been

      [email protected]

      1. dIrishInMe | Jul 22, 2005 03:06pm | #14

        I agree with you on the job pricing thing, but I have never been successful with convincing the homeowner when there was that big a difference.  This is predicated on the fact that I'm guessing that since it is a deck job the total job is under $10k.  Granted there are many deck jobs over 10k, but he didn't say anything like "it's a big deck job".  At the very least, if he dropped the price, say $1500 and got the job, he'd spend the time on the job site thinking about the compressor and miter box he could have bought or about how his daughter needs braces.

        Also let me say that I guess the reason I don't work for myself anymore was that I got tired of giving "free estimates" and being underbid by fly by nighters. 

        Matt

        Edited 7/22/2005 8:07 am ET by Matt

        1. User avater
          EricPaulson | Jul 22, 2005 05:54pm | #21

          Also let me say that I guess the reason I don't work for myself anymore was that I got tired of giving "free estimates" and being underbid by fly by nighters. 

          I hear ya loud and clear.

          EricIt's Never Too Late

          To Become

          What You Might Have Been

          [email protected]

          1. davidmeiland | Jul 22, 2005 06:43pm | #25

            Fly-by-nights are sometimes my best advertising. I gave a phone estimate to a lady about 6 months ago. She called about a job almost identical to one I had just estimated, so I told her about it. Before you shoot me, that's the only phone estimate I've given in years.

            Never heard from her... and heard that someone else was doing the work...

            BUT, about 3 weeks ago she called again. Will I come in, do a bunch of additional work, and... by the way... would I be willing to finish what the other guy started and never finished? The 'other guy' (actually a licensed contractor) had turned a two week job into a 4 month job and it wasn't done, and stuff they had paid for was not on the job.

            Be responsive. Be professional. Give clients written proposals that look really sharp. Have a nice truck. Short hair and shave whenever possible. Do great work and clean up. You will not have a lot of competition.

          2. WorkshopJon | Jul 22, 2005 07:12pm | #27

            "Be responsive. Be professional. Give clients written proposals that look really sharp. Have a nice truck. Short hair and shave whenever possible. Do great work and clean up. You will not have a lot of competition."

            Dave,

            Good words of advice, but clearly a strategy that works for customers willing to spend the $$$ for a completed turn key project.  Lot's of people out there who also want to save a buck almost anyway they can.   (Me at times too).

            Often the price differential isn't 10%, 20% or 30%, it can be as much as five times!

            I had a landscaping project once where the "pro's" were quoting me $10K to $12K.  (driveway, finish grading and grass)  The guy who got the job charged me $1,500.  Was it the same level of service? NO, but his workmanship was first class, I just had to take care of the minor details.

            Now if you are truly a pro, with pro prices and professionalism to back it, you will succeed.  You just need to weed out the chaff and not waste your time on them.

            Jon

          3. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jul 22, 2005 07:38pm | #28

            Be responsive. Be professional. Give clients written proposals that look really sharp. Have a nice truck. Short hair and shave whenever possible. Do great work and clean up. You will not have a lot of competition.

            Oh, I agree. But I will also say that it is FAR from as simple as that.

            I don't know what has happened to me or the market in general...........

            I am starting to see the prospective client market being whittled down to 2 or maybe three types of consumers.

            1) Those who wish to have a fine custom job that fits within their reasonable budget.

            2) Those that wish they could do what the above folks are doing; I'm gonna say the Box store shoppers, the one that are puchasing installed products.

            3) Last would be the 3 bid hire the lowest guy shoppers.

             Group 1...While there are many fine craftsmen and their companies that are capable and willing to perfectly execute a project for this client, they are increasingly coming up against small design and home centers, smallish kitchen and bath design/install showrooms.

            Clients can come in and sit down, have a drink of water or wine, meet with a dedicated design and sales staff, perhaps the owner and make themselves comfortable while discussing and making their selections. They can see touch and smell a limited but broad range of product if even 3 or 4 well thought out displays.

            As opposed to having to look at pictures in their home or schlepping around to a bunch of different shops where perhaps is lurking a saleperson that may be willing to waltz this client away from you.

            Group 2...They wish they could afford to do what group 1 is doing, they will shop price to a point, but they still want one stop shopping. They'll go to the Big Box stores and hope for the best. This client is still possibly served by a home based contractor.

            Group 3........is looking for price, period.

            I could probably write a short essay on this, or perhaps allready have.

            I could be wrong, but this is what I am seeing, at least in fairly influential markets.

            EricIt's Never Too Late

            To Become

            What You Might Have Been

            [email protected]

      2. WorkshopJon | Jul 22, 2005 04:20pm | #17

        "Not so fast there.................Lets say he's bidding against mister moonlighter whose wife brings home all the bennies....."

        Eric,

        Good point.  But how do you compete against that?  When in fact they ARE your competition.

        Jon

        1. Dave45 | Jul 22, 2005 04:35pm | #18

          Jon -

          You don't compete with someone like that - at least on a pure cost basis.  If they have "free" bennies, their overhead is much lower than yours and you'll have to compete on the basis of doing the job faster or better.

          I've never actually seen it, but I've heard of medical insurance companies getting balky if the covered spouse is in a higher risk occupation such as construction.

          1. TMO | Jul 23, 2005 04:57am | #30

            "I've never actually seen it, but I've heard of medical insurance companies getting balky if the covered spouse is in a higher risk occupation such as construction."

             If I may be so bold as to make a prediction that if you haven't heard of this you will.

        2. User avater
          EricPaulson | Jul 22, 2005 05:59pm | #22

          Good point.  But how do you compete against that?  When in fact they ARE your competition.

          You can't. You must 'sell' yourself, educate and convince the consumer that there is good reason to hire you even though your price is higher. Or have people tripping over one another to get to you.

          Good luck, I'm tired of it.

          There's been a lot of discussion on this matter in the bus. folder over the past 6 mos. or so. SCA's and all that.

          EricIt's Never Too Late

          To Become

          What You Might Have Been

          [email protected]

  11. FNbenthayer | Jul 22, 2005 03:13pm | #15

    We've found that "pre-selling" the facts dings, if not knocks out many of the lowballers, i.e.:

    "We have insurance and carry workman's comp on all our employees,  here's a copy."

    "We don't use casual (unknown) labor, only legal employees"

    "Included in our bid is a reserve to replace for any materials that can't be reinstalled, you'll be refunded if it's not needed"

    Present this info at the beginning of the process and you might find less price resistance.

     

     

     

     

    The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
    - Fyodor Dostoyevski

    1. User avater
      jazzdogg | Jul 22, 2005 07:08pm | #26

      Amen, brother! Getting in front of the curve is always a heads-up move; it's generally the reactive types who fail to consider these kinds of professional strategies.

      We teach people how to treat us,-Jazzdogg-

      "Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

  12. earl06 | Jul 22, 2005 03:28pm | #16

    Just tell him to get the other guy to build it, and when it falls down in a couple years, you can go back and build it correctly and also charge whatever you want. You don't want quality to suffer just to get a job. If the client is griping about price now, just wait until you "finish".

    DCS Inc.

    "He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash

     

  13. timkline | Jul 22, 2005 04:59pm | #19

    oh god.

    welcome to your new sales career.

    don't worry, it's only part-time.

    you need to develop the quick pitch about why you are so much more desirable than Joe Schmo and Joe Blo.

    be sure to get into the apples vs apples discussion about why your number may be higher.

     

    carpenter in transition

    1. TomMaynard | Jul 26, 2005 02:11am | #32

      I have this scenario happen many times.

      <!----><!----> <!---->

      On one particular project I set a meeting up to present my proposal. After doing so the owners stated that I was high. Continuing to comment on how they had received a quote that was considerably less.

      <!----> <!---->

      I asked if they mind me reviewing the other quote.

       

      In the comparison the other contractor did an excellent job of listing the materials and labor.

      I said oh! I see the mistake he made. They immediately said where? I stated: he left out his overhead and profit. Really!! Wow! We are getting a great deal.

       

      They asked me:  To be fair do you think we should call him to tell him?  I said: Sure, I would.

       

      Later that night the other contractor called me to ask what overhead and profit was.

      <!----> <!---->

      You win some and you lose some.

      <!----> <!---->

      Tom

      Edited 7/26/2005 10:56 pm ET by TomMaynard

      Edited 7/26/2005 11:01 pm ET by TomMaynard

  14. User avater
    GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 22, 2005 05:21pm | #20

    Sharpen a carpenter's pencil, with your logo on it, and send it with the following note:

    "I want to commend you for your discernment. In the years I've been doing this you are the first prospect that has ever asked me if I could sharpen my pencil. Since pencil sharpening is one of the most fundamental skills that must be mastered in this business, it shows a level of scrutiny on your part that I find admirable.

    Of course I can sharpen my pencil, with a utility knife even. I learned the skill years ago. It sounds like my competition may still be whittling his mark up stick down to a nub trying to get it right. I've enclosed a sample of my work for your consideration. Please amend my initial quote to include the cost of the enclosed pencil. I look forward to working with such a discerning client. Thank you for your consideration."

     

     

    If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again

    1. User avater
      EricPaulson | Jul 22, 2005 06:00pm | #23

      Ur stealing Buck's material!!It's Never Too Late

      To Become

      What You Might Have Been

      [email protected]

      1. User avater
        GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 22, 2005 06:07pm | #24

        What, are you kidding?!

        That was two whole paragraphs.

        Buck would have said it far better in one... with shorter sentences too.

        And he would have probably suggested pinning the note to the prospect's chest with the sharpened pencil.

        But I am working on his style.

        I'll get it one of these days. 

         

        If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again

        1. User avater
          JeffBuck | Jul 23, 2005 08:04am | #31

          I had a great day today!

          slept in till 8:30 ...

           

          got to my 10 am meeting on time. Had already faxed in 2 bids to a new kitchen design place ... the kitchen designer in question had worked thru the HO on my last big project ... so she called me in.

          First kitchen .. small ... I faxed 4500 ... they planned on $4000 ...

          I said .. Great! I'm 100% on target! Let's go thru the details and sign on the dotted line! So we did.

          next one ... I bid $9100 .... she said ... "we're not so good on this one"

          first words out of my mouth ...

          "Did underbid another one ... Dammit!" ...

           

          "Uh .... no" ... she says ...

          but the ice was broken.

          They thot ... $6800.

          That's not so bad I say ... hell ... U make yer 6800 a flat 7K and I make my 9100 an even 9K ... suddenly we're only 2K apart. That's nothing for a big time cab shop like you and a big time contractor like me!

          So .. as she's adding and subtracting ... I take 91 minus 68 .... 2300

          half of that ... 1150 ...

          all this done on my cell phone too ... don't want to give any "calculator anxiety" ...

          so 6800 plus 1150 is $7950.

           

          I'll meet ya half way!

           

          she looks confused ...

          we went thru all the details ... agreed that I should be the guy to do this great install .... but "we" should try to find some more money.

          She's to confirm their final costs on cab's on Monday from the factory ... and give me a call to let me know how much "extra" they find.

           

          as she was digging thru her paperwork ... I had my briefcase open ... and had an envelope of tile pics I had shown to a customer last week ... so I pull them out and say ...

          "do these help ya find any more money???"

          again .. she looks confused ...

           

          as there's absolutely no tile in this project!

           

          what?

          I say .. com'mon ... these are nice pictures ... they oughta be worth something! Like maybe an extra $1150! ... ???(raise eyebrows at this point)

           

          I'm pretty good job site buddies with her husband ... he's a granite templater ...

          he's one hell of a smart #### too ... great guy all around ...

          she just looks at me and says ... Oh great ... I got one at home ... now I got one sitting at my desk!

          I said ... Yeah ... and I know your husband don't work cheap either!

           

          Nothing better than a just plain fun and successful sales meeting.

          Then ... got to the jobsite ... inspector was there in my absence ...

          left a green "GO" sticker for my post holes ...

           

          She'll call Monday ... we'll work something out. Never let them see ya sweat!

           

          Money is supposed to be fun, right? Might as well have fun fighting about it ...

          Jeff    Buck Construction

           Artistry In Carpentry

               Pittsburgh Pa

          1. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jul 26, 2005 02:43am | #33

            as an update ...

            no "extra" money ...

             

            someone else just said ... win some lose some ...

            except this time I won one ...

            and ain't losing on the other?

             

            P and O woulda brought me down to their number ... also figuring to do the mechanicals that require licensed subs myself would lower it too ...

            and believing their time frame as opposed to mine ...

            in the end ... their regular sub will do it ... most likely do a fine job ...

            and probably be happy with the amount they told him it could be done for.

            More power to him ...

            I never say I been "undercut" ... just say someone else will work cheaper.

            Jeff

             

                 Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          2. User avater
            dieselpig | Jul 26, 2005 02:48am | #34

            http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=61040.1

            I feel ya.

          3. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jul 26, 2005 02:54am | #36

            bet I just read that!

             

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

  15. Hazlett | Jul 22, 2005 07:46pm | #29

     ad73,

     It's probably to late for THIS customer----- but you can almost entirely avoid being asked this question in the future--try this. think about it a little bit first--- because the initial step sounds counter productive------but here goes-----3 EASY steps

      1) you have a seperate business line from your home line----- on your answering machine you leave a  polite pleasant message---" Thanks for calling ad73 construction co.---We can't answer the phone right now---but please leave your name, your phone number, and the TIME it would be convenient for you to recieve a return phone call"

    If your prospect calls you during the day---they will most likely give you a time THAT evening---if they call  during the evening---they usually give you a work number to reach them at the following day.------you must call them back at EXACTLY  time they requested. EXACTLY---even better call 1 minute early---simply say " hello, this is fred at ad73 construction co.---you had asked we call you at 10:30 about possibly building a deck for you????"

     during your initial phone conversation----if you wish to pursue the work( sometimes you WON'T want the job)---schedule an appointment at a SPECIFIC time to meet and look over the project. A specific time---7:00 pm tuesday the 31st.---SPECIFIC---not something like "around 7:00 or a little after"---very very specific.

    2) show up at exactly that appointed time----1 minute early is even better---just ring the door bell and introduce yourself---" Hi---I am Fred with ad73 construction co.---we had a 7:00 appointment to talk about building a deck????"

    3) During your initial phone conversation---promise to bring something to the prospect when you meet-----a brochure, product samples, a book with pictures of similar projects you have done---something -----anything. But make clear you will be bringing something for them to look at.

     When you meet them--shortly after you exchange greetings---maybe just after you look at the proposed location just hand them the sample " oh----before I forget---here are those samples I wanted to bring you"

    Remember---all this is simple stuff you were probably wanting to do anyhow------- but systemizing it means that by 7:05 you have demonstrated to your potential customer THREE seperate times that you tell people exactly what you are going to do---and you do EXACTLY what you say you will do.

     Your competitors will say they do something like this----but almost certainly they will fall short in one of those 3 things.

     I would say about 10% of my actual customers comment on the  precision of timing of  my call during the initial conversation.---over half will comment on one of the 3 things sometime during the job.

    Remeber---I reminded the customer of this by saying" you asked me to call at 10:30"-----" we had an appointment at 7:00"---" Here  are the samples I promised you"

     they  RARELY will ask you to cut your price---and if they do---it's  very easy to politely say " I am sorry---but no"

    don't get defensive---and don't try to rationalize your price------head all that stuff off ahead of time.

    You ever hear the expression" 90 % of success is just showing up"?

    Well showing up on time is probably another 6-8%

    embarrasingly----doing a good job---'though necissary---is maybe only 2-4%

    Very best wishes----and this ALL gets easier with practice---

     Stephen

    1. DonK | Jul 29, 2005 12:45am | #38

      Stephen - Just read the post. I like that system, and will probably include it in my bag of tricks. I just wish half of the customers were on the ball enough to get it. Don

  16. DanH | Jul 26, 2005 02:50am | #35

    Just start talking about what you could omit from the job.

  17. Gabe | Jul 26, 2005 03:27am | #37

    If you gave a fair and honest estimate for the work and material requested, you NEVER change your price to please a customer who is shopping!

    If they will play one contractor against another, they will do the same to you in the end.

    If you have the ethics and the balls to back em up, you will walk.

    If they were playing you for a deal, they will think up an excuse to call you back. Otherwise, you will have time to find another job that pays you fairly for your time.

    Gabe

  18. DonCanDo | Aug 01, 2005 04:54am | #39

    I don't know if this thread has fully run it's course, but I thought I'd add to it because of a very recent experience.

    It was after I read this thread that a customer called me and said that although he would like to accept my bid, he was suffering from "sticker shock".  I knew my price was right where I needed it (after 2 years, at least there are some jobs that I can figure out how to bid), but I also knew it would be higher than some others simply because a big part of this job is painting.  I work alone and don't have low-cost labor to just slap some paint on.

    Instead of telling him right away that I'm not negotiating, I asked him to wait a moment while I pulled out the proposal.  So I started going through the breakdown of the various tasks, half talking to myself and sort of explaining how I got those numbers and he's trying to interrupt me because his only issue is with the bottom line.  I find 2 small tasks where maybe, if everything goes perfect, I could save him about $50.00.  Hardly enough to nail the sale, but it's all I could do (and I knew all of this ahead of time).

    He says he'll get back to me and I wish him luck whatever his decision. 

    He just got back to me and I start his job in about a month.  It's very nice work and there's some variety to keep things interesting.  I thanked him for choosing me and assured him that he would be pleased.  It was easy to say that because I won't have to take any shortcuts to make an acceptable profit since I didn't move my price.

    Lesson learned? well, affirmed anyway.

    -Don

    1. Gumshoe | Aug 01, 2005 05:18am | #40

      Did two small jobs for the same customer - first time they said they'd like my $2900 price if it was closer to $2500. So I said I could eliminate a few things, and do it for $2600. Got the job. Second bid was $4500. They said No way can we afford that, but we still need the work done. I said OK, what do you want to eliminate? They eliminated a bunch of stuff, and I told them I could shave a little more off if they did the painting themselves. Got the price down to $2000.Immediately after signing the contract, Mrs. H.O. shows me a couple more patches (she's a shrewd one) - one was under the sink, a big mess, and a pain in the arse to get to. I said OK that's $200 more. She didn't like it, but hubby said Whatever lets just get it done.I had enough in the bid to take my time and do it right. So when Hubby kept raving about how good my work was, I threw in a couple of small wall patches that weren't in my bid, and fixed a messy patch that hubby had done. I told them about it, and said every time he compliments my work, I go looking for another hole to patch.So he went and bought my lunch that day. I finished the next day, and they paid same day. Nice to have enough in your bid to do a good job, and end on good terms with customer. The customer bought my lunch, and the job didn't eat it! - Doesn't often happen that way!

      1. davidmeiland | Aug 01, 2005 06:01am | #41

        Huck, Don D... I appreciate you guys holding up some decent standards out there. Sounds like your pencils are already quite sharp.

        Edited 7/31/2005 11:01 pm ET by davidmeiland

    2. User avater
      JeffBuck | Aug 01, 2005 07:37am | #42

      just something to keep in the back of your mind ...

       

      "he who talks first ...

       

       

      loses!"

       

      your way worked out great for you. I'm not about to suggest going against something that's obviously working ... but ... it's a well known sales "fact" ...

      proven time and time again ...

      he who speaks first .. loses. Basic human nature .. pretty much a study in verbal and nonverbal body language.

      and trust me ... there have been times when I'm sitting there ... just wanteting to blurt out something that I hope and pray will convince them to sign on that damn dotted line ... but I keep hearing an old sales manager yelling inside my head ...

      He who talks first ... loses!

       

      uncomfortable ... for both U and them ... but very ... very ... very ... effective!

      Jeff

       

           Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

  19. User avater
    IMERC | Aug 04, 2005 05:30am | #43

    Dear Cherished Customer,

    Thank you for hiring us. We look forward to saving you a lot of money compared with all the other contractors who submitted quotes. As for your inquiry as to how we can charge so much less than everyone else, I welcome this opportunity to explain how we operate. You see, unlike many of our competitors, we don't believe in paying top dollar to employees. There are so many people looking for work these days, it's pretty easy to find some desperate enough to work for far less than they're worth. If they start complaining, we just get rid of them and find replacements in a few days. Most jobs get disrupted just a little bit. Besides, we don't look to hire the best workers. Most of the work required for your project can be performed by people with almost no skills. (In fact, if you care to do some of it yourself, I can save you even more money.) Heck, I've learned that some of the best employees don't even speak English. They work cheapest of all and never sass the boss. Most of the time they can figure out my hand signals telling them what to do. If anything complicated does arise, that's what I'm here for. It may take a few days for me to get around to check out your job, but with all the money you're saving, I'm sure you won't mind the wait.

    Not only don't we pay our employees very much, we offer no benefits, because that adds way too much to overhead. Our employees know that if they get sick and can't work, they don't make any money. So you can rest assured that they'll show up at your job even if they come down with pneumonia or TB. I'll tell you something else -- our installers and technicians work fast. A lot of contractors tell their crews to hang around jobs forever making sure everything is just right. Experienced as I am, I know exactly when something is just good enough to get by. That's when we call it a job. Think of all the money you save with us not worrying about frilly details.

    Another thing is, we know how to cut through all that government paperwork. Most rules and regulations make no sense. For instance, everyone in the construction industry knows that hardly anyone ever gets caught working without a permit or trade licenses. The money we save by avoiding these technicalities gets passed on to you. We also cut corners with code requirements & standards at every opportunity. Standards do nothing but jack up the price of a project. By substituting cheaper materials and ignoring labor-intensive procedures required to meet code, we are able to charge much less than those suckers who operate by the book. Insurance is another area where we realize big savings. How many jobs do you ever hear of where there's a payoff? Insurance is nothing but money down the drain. If something does go wrong, you can always sue us. What more protection do you need than that?

    I'll let you in on another inside secret. We cleverly save you money by not paying all of our bills. Our company has accounts at about a dozen supply houses around town, and we never pay for material unless we absolutely have to. Most wholesalers will carry us for 60 or 90 days before they start nagging me about payment. Then I can usually string them along for another few months with promises or token payments. If one supplier cuts us off, I simply take my business to the others and go through the same routine. It's a game that real sharp contractors like myself have refined to an art form. You ought to be proud to have your job done by an artist!

    Something else that separates us from the pack is that we're not a bunch of namby-pambies hung up on safety concerns. Accidents will happen, so why bother trying to prevent them! Some contractors worry more about their trades people getting hurt than they do about getting the job done fast. Believe me, hard hats, eye shields and work gloves only slow people down. So we don't supply those things to our workers. Here's where we gain another advantage by hiring a bunch of people who don't speak English. They can't read warning signs that might make them too cautious. This saves you money.

    Also, I'm sure you noticed that when you called me you reached an answering machine, not some secretary costing over $10,000 a year. Sorry that it took me so long to get back to you, but that's the price you pay for saving money. You may have also noticed that our trucks are run-down, our tools worn out and this letter is being written on a 1950s vintage manual typewriter. Our philosophy is to make do with whatever is already paid for, no matter how old. That's another reason we can charge you so much less.

    Nor do we waste money on association dues and educational seminars like some of our high-fluting competitors. Believe me, I've been in this business for more than 20 years and I learned everything anyone needs to know in my first two years of apprenticeship. If it was good enough for my daddy and granddaddy, it's good enough for you. By the way, did I mention that we guarantee our work.. Just make sure you catch what's wrong before the job is done, because at the prices we charge, we can't afford any call backs. Thank you once again for letting us do your work. We're happy to be the low bidder. I'm sure you'll get your money's worth.

    Sincerely, The Low Bidder

     

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Aug 04, 2005 05:49am | #44

      a reply to that...

      Dear Low Bidder.

       

      You're hired.  When do you want to pretend that you can start?  I understand the lack of benefits and insurance, but you will provide an affidavit showing that all workers not covered by benefits and insurance are your own children, right?

       

      I'll be glad to pay 5% down and the rest AFTER you are finished...  no specifications on how far after you finish are a reasonable trade off for not knowing when you will finish, right?

       

      Your beloved customer,

       

       

      John Kerry 

    2. User avater
      jazzdogg | Aug 04, 2005 05:51am | #45

      Dear Low Bidder,

      I think I may have seen your work before. Aren't you the one whose motto is "We screw the other guy and pass the savings on to you"?

       

       

       -Jazzdogg-

      "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Outdoor Lighting

Lighting up an exterior isn't just about ambiance— it's also about code compliance. Here is what the code says about safety and efficiency when it comes to outdoor lighting.

Featured Video

Micro-Adjust Deck-Baluster Spacing for an Eye-Deceiving Layout

No math, no measuring—just a simple jig made from an elastic band is all you need to lay out a good-looking deck railing.

Related Stories

  • A Grand Rescue on the Coast
  • How Trump's “Big Beautiful Bill” Will Affect the Inflation Reduction Act
  • A Drip-Free, Through-Window Heat Pump
  • Podcast Episode 690: Sharpening, Wires Behind Baseboard, and Fixing Shingle Panels

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Old House Journal – August 2025
    • Designing the Perfect Garden Gate
    • Old House Air-Sealing Basics
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data