Just typed a way too long post with way too much detail. So instead…ya get this.
Have a customer mad I can’t start soon enough for them. They know I’m in the middle of a job that’s been extended. They don’t care….even though no start date on the contract…they “expected me there yesterday!”
Even though….the message I left last week was…..”I’ll call next week with a firm start date”. Meaning….call this week letting them know I’d be available in 2 weeks.
Not good enough…lady’s mad! After all…..I took a $600 deposit from them 12/29!
Wanted to know why I didn’t just finish what I first contracted..then did her job…then went back for the extras. Didn’t care about silly details like the extras had to be done first?
So…as she’s yelling at me on the phone today…..I tell her “Appearantly we have a conflict of personalities” Also tell her I’m not going to explain myself farther or explain why she’s wrong in thinking her job should be the priority……both of which were direct questions. Said I wasn’t in the mood to fight with customers today.
I’d simply mail her the $600 deposit back..in full. Find another tile guy. I’m not interrested in the job anymore. Don’t like the idea of working for someone that’s mad at me BEFORE I even start!
I get silence….and she says she’ll talk with husband and get back to me.
I say that’s fine…do as you please….but I’m sending back the start check and cancelling the contract as I’m uncomfortable with the situation.
On top of this…the tile job is a small breakfast bar counter top. Tile she selected are border tiles that would have to be cut up and wrapped around a curve.
The border tile really isn’t a traditional edge tile. there are no bullnose.
I pointed all this out..and drew it all up…..pointed out the tile she picked wasn’t meant for this application…but I could make it work……but it’d be on the “rustic end” of the spectrum!
So now I’m worried……she claims she heard me say over and over I’d start this Monday….which I never/never/never said!
So…how much of the tile design did she “hear what she wanted”?
She was ordering the tile herself. I had to take 4 phone calls giving the same sq ft amounts and linear ft amounts of tile for her to order. I finally broke it down to X big pieces and X little pieces. After that..I only had to re-explain twice and leave 2 written notes.
After today…I want no part of this potential mess. No how/No way.
So……I’m doing it either way…buy can I just send back the check and have that be the end of it?
I’ve never run into anything like this before…….as far as she knew..I could have called and said I’d be there next Monday…….this lady’s ready to kill after I’m “2 days late” in her eyes. So I’m getting out.
What’s the usual way to handle this. I figured a nice…..”Sorry we were unable to meet your time constraints” and “refund of deposit in full” letter.
Short and sweet.
Like I said…either way……I’m sending it back. I’d rather explain to the magistrate why I gave all the money back, and didn’t start….than why she’s unhappy with her counter top!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery…..While U Waite
Replies
You're absolutely correct in wanting to get out of this situation.
I'd send a certified letter, with the check (and I'd write "VOID" across it in large black letters), stating why I'm not going to do the job.
You should probably also point out that you already have invested a certain amount of time in giving her information (how much tile, design work, etc., etc.) which you do not expect to be paid for. I'd also explain that you in no way committed to a specific start date and that she was rude and insulting to you ... just to get all of this in writing. Lastly, you should reiterate your misgivings on the tile design that you shared with her verbally. This will get you out of the loop when another tile guy does the job and you're blamed for the (poor) design and the tile purchase.
John
I like your thought process. I think this is one of those rare instances where we really wish we had a lawyer as a friend who we could just call for 5 minutes of free advice. Failing that, it might be worth talking to one, even if it does cost you $50 for a quick sit down, just to be right and have no headaches down the road. Around here, both parties have to agree to a contract, and both have to agree to end it unless there's some clause within stipulating what constitutes grounds for walking away. But I do think you're on terra firma with wanting out and how to get there. Wishing you luck . . .
" Clothes make the man. Naked people have litte or no influence in society" - Mark Twain
No advice to give, just wanted to say sorry that sucks and good luck
It seems that in the past decade, the number of aggressive woman has increased exponentially. They know what they want and they THINK they know how to get it. Perpetual PMS is what they use......let her know you won't be treated like that by her or anyone else for that matter...send her a check, then say "don't like it, sue me. I'm not the one that is hearing voices telling you start dates...you are. Goodbye madam"
After you've told her what you've told her, does she really want you doing the job in her house? I don't think so, but she does want to win this little war...don't let her!
Have a customer mad I can't start soon enough for them. They know I'm in
the middle of a job that's been extended.
Gee that never happens to us. See Business-Playing
catch
up, I'm thinking ahead since I think I can anticipate that kind of problem
coming up this March for us. We'll be doing the the project that was supposed
to run December to mid-February when the one that was supposed to start mid-February
start in March. Geez ya can't possibly win trying to schedule this stuff.
So it looks like you need language in your contract to
at contract signing)
I recently added a cancellation fee to cover the time and expense it takes
me to schedule (and reschedule and reschedule again) these projects. the
larger the project the larger the fee since it's harder to move the larger
ones around and if they do cancel then that hurts in the pocket book if there
isn't another one directly ready in the que to takes it place by starting
early.
lady's mad! After all.....I took a $600 deposit from them
12/29!
That's not an unreasonable wait at all for a $600 deposit if you ask me although
what percentage of the total contract was the $600 for and what was the deposit
intended to
pay for? If it was a $600 deposit for a $700 job then I could see someone getting
ticked but $600 for a $6,000 or $60,000 project is another thing.
Wanted to know why I didn't just finish what I first contracted..then did
her job...then went back for the extras.
Yeah they all want to know that. I'm not sure it at all worth trying to explain
the when and why that doesn't work.
I
tell her "Appearantly
we have a conflict of personalities" & Don't
like the idea of working for someone
that's mad at me BEFORE I even start!
Okay I thinks that's a good response although maybe I would not have said "Appearantly
we have a conflict of personalities" I would have just apologized for the
inconvenience and insisted on sending he what she was entitled to as a refund
under
the contract agreement,
I get silence....and she says she'll talk with husband
and get back to me. I say that's fine...do as you please....but I'm sending back the start check
and cancelling the contract as I'm uncomfortable with the situation.
Still a good move. I agree.
So now I'm worried......she claims she heard me say over and over I'd start
this Monday....which I never/never/never said!
I have language in my contract that says it really doesn't matter what I or
we say, what matters is what's written down in the contract and other
documents such as change orders and memos. Did I give her a written change
order or memo saying that I would start on Monday? You need language that covers
you saying the proposed starting window date (not a date) is part of the agreement
and must be in writing and don't let people pressure you into giving them
a starting
window
that you can't guarantee meeting.
can I just send back the check and
have that be the end of it?
Well not really, if they don't accept your return of the deposit as a condition
for canceling the original contract then they can hold you to your agreement
and you have to do the job. You do need to be careful here and get
the cancellation agreement in writing because they could take the return of the deposit and
then sue you for damages because you broke the agreement and put them through
the undue hardship of finding another contractor. The cancellation
has to be agreed on by both parties you can just unilaterally bail out.
Like I said...either way......I'm sending it back. I'd rather explain to
the magistrate why I gave all the money back, and didn't start....than why
she's
unhappy with her counter top!
Nah I'm not sure you want to do that at all because like I just said it cold
possibly cost you more money out of your pocket. Once again both parties
have to agree on the terms of the cancellation.
Outside of the fact that it's a bummer situation for you this is a
real good topic. Sorry about that. Ya know I think i have some other stuff
somewhere on this topic too so I'll hunt for it and check to see what's in
the Contractors
Plain English Legal Guide while I eat dinner. Do you have that book?
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
I have a very simple 1 line in my contract that states:
"This contract can be canceled by " (Co name)" for any reason"
If they sign the contract they agree to this clause.
Heck if you (god forbid) became accidentally blind would she still want the work done?
hey.... hang onto that check... it's her belt loops !..
i like what jerrald had to say... contracts are funny things.... especially signed ones.. what you want to do is have her agree to cancel the contract... THEN you'll refund her money..
mebbe time to review your contract with a legal beagle ?
and don't lose site of teh fact that it's a game.. and you want to maneuber her into cancelling the contract... c'mon.... show us some of your super salesmanship...
what 're you sellin ?...... a cancellation !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry, I must disagree with you about a mutual cancellation of contract. I had a client, signed contract for $38,000.00, $10,000.00 deposit. Job was about 1/3 complete when he was refused financing (2nd mortgage). He told me the job was going to have to stop right where it was. Now I had not scheduled any other jobs (obviously) so that I could be at his home for a couple of months. I called my attorney immediately and his advice came as a shock. The contract (and its a good one) is basically to protect you at the end of the job, once you have executed it fully. At that point a client is bound to pay. At any point before complete execution of the contract, anyone can back out and it becomes a toss up between how much a jury or judge will award and how much it will cost you in legal fees to get it. Also a jury will never award money for unperformed services no matter who signed the contract. You are only entitled to be compensated for work you have done, but unfortunately sometimes it will cost you more than the amount you are owed to get it.
Peace
Beast I think what the awarding of damages all depends upon is whether a party to the contract has sufferd signifigant damges due to the breach of the agreement by the other party. There was something on this that I once saw in the JLC forums and if for some reason I can get lucky and find it their I try and reference it.
Hopefully the lawyer types here can add some more on that to the body of knowledge too. I only know what I've read or learned second hand somewhere else.
I don't disagree with you and what you're saying but I also don't disagree with what I've said so far either.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Jeff,
Must be the week for it. After dropping a $90 light globe today (my fault, I get to pay) the client calls and says the 3 color paint in her 1/2 bath has 2 of the colors reversed. I look at my color chips that has her request noted on them and say, no I think this is the way you requested it. She says, no, thats not how I wanted it. Sigh, good customer with potential down the road, "I'll fix it maam".
Anyway back to your issue. First, you are doing the right thing. This job as you have already figured out has "PROBLEMS" written all over it. I like the suggestion you already have. A certified letter with the check and a short, proffesional to the point (your specialty) letter outlining what you have already done, that you can't meet her time constraints, and here's the money have a nice day! And I do agree, I wouldn't care if she talked with her husband and doubled the money I would not do the job. (well maybe double) DanT
Unless you have a weasel clause in your contract. You will need to honor your contract. Unless both parties agree to walk away from the signed contract.
Send her one of your company checks, on the notation line, type in cashing of check cancels contract. She takes the money, you get the check back with her signiture....boom, done deal. Let her go on to make her husband miserable.
I like that suggestion!
Nice and easy.
Now.......maybe next time...if I use my whole contract..boiler plate and all...instead of scratching out a hand written one from Office Depot on the hood of my van I'd be fine....
You kids wanna hear the funny part?
I'm taking my plumber over to her daughters house on Sat to get a price on a bath remodel! Well....at least that's the plan for now......we'll see if we're let in the door.
I'm planning on going thru with that as if nothing's happened. I figure the daughter probably know's what Mom's like.......
and the son in law may appreciate my honesty!
Who knows....can't win unless ya try. At least I already got to make my first presentation to the daughter......we'll just have to see if she gets mad too.
I know what the lady's really mad about......she's at the very end of a remodel that was "scheduled" to be finished around T-Giving. And she's anxious to get her elderly mother in law into the new addition. I understand her frustration.......
I just ain't gonna be the last man in/whipping boy. I'm usually good at putting out fires......when given a chance. I don't think I'd get a chance this time around.
Plus...I'm self employeed...we dont have to work for mean people, right?
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff,
What Jerrald said.
And, I always ask three questions upon the first meeting.
How many bids are you getting?
When does the work need to be completed?
Who am I bidding against?
The old we'd like to have the five month project completed by christmas generally starts in september.Tom
Ya know I do like Bob Walkers language for a cancellation agreement and I
also have to go with him on "In some states, putting
a "in full payment" of
other qualifier in the endorsement space operates as a release (or whatever),
in others it doesn't. " too.
I had a client "pay me in full" once writing
that as part of a memo on the voucher part of the check (not in the memo
space directly on the check) and my lawyer told me to go ahead and cash it
and go after her again
for the balance since all she was doing is making me an offer and since
I wasn't signing it (the offer) directly I wasn't agreeing to it or bound to
it. It was at that time that he also explained to me that qualifiers
in the endorsement space don't always apply depending upon the state
(I work both CT & NY).
Keith C's suggestion "Send her one of your company
checks, on the notation line, type in cashing of check cancels contract.
She takes the money, you get
the check back with
her signiture....boom, done deal." may or may not be a done deal. It
might sound
"Nice and easy." but it may not
be enough and if it isn't you could be getting
yourself in to more trouble on that. You might want to just take what all of
us
have
said and discuss this with your lawyer for a real opinion before you rely on
just the "qualifiers in the endorsement space"
strategy. offering the written cancellation agreement I think sounds more secure.
By the way nothing on this in the Contractors
Plain English Legal Guide but I check in the other books I have on contracts
when I get a chance.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Keith,
I remember from one of my commercial transaction classes that you can't make a check conditional. My prof used the example that you could write "when hell freezes over" in the date space. It's meaningless, sames a writing " payment in full" on the memo line.
When you write a check, you are printing cash. Incidentally, checks are far and away the largest form of cash in circulation.
It would be nice if it worked that way, though.kTom
1. No one (well, most of us) don't like to spoken to impolitely or yelled at.
2. You have helped her and she was comfortable enough with your abilities/ demeanor that she made an agreement with you and gave you $$.
3. She is at the end of a renovation and her wits. She is not angry with you, she's angry with how she has been treated during the whole reno process. It takes a particular type of person to be a GC. She is not that type of person.
4. She is really asking (in her own special way) to be made to feel important. Give her what she wants! "Mrs. X, I understand how frustrating a reno can be, especially being that this is one of the finishing touches to your project. I would love to acccomodate you and your schedule but I am in the middle of a project for Mrs. Y which is taking longer than planned. I am sure you would not want me to run off and do another project while I was in the midst of yours. I cannot abandon Mrs. Y, just as I have no intention of abandoning you. Please bear with me and we will work this out."
5. Do not give her a "freebie" to make-up for taking so long to get to her job. This will only serve to reward poor behavior.
6. Send/ fax her a memo of your start date (+3 days) and then call a few days early to "ask" if you can start sooner. She'll have cookies waiting for you.
7. Do her job with a smile. It'll build character. Out of all the Subs she had storming though her home, you will be the one she remembers fondly and will refer you to everyone she knows.
8. But then again, I could be wrong. Har! Har! Har!
Edited 2/4/2003 10:57:46 PM ET by Frankie
And while giving all this advice regarding how to get out of this I think
that Frankie really has the right idea in many ways. One of the best experiences
I had with a client in the last year certaily didn't start out that way. I
was
a month and a half late getting to them and as a result I had to fabricate,
replace, and install a new railing system in a house that was otherwise finished
and that they were now living in. Boy were they ticked and annoyed but I just
told another contractor the other day that the whole thing worked out so well
that I would go back and do anything for them again in a heart beat.
(Rail & Balustrade
Replacement/Remodel Private Residence-Greenwich CT )
View Image View Image View Image
This could turn into a great plus side experience for you if you execute it
right.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
I remember from one of my commercial transaction classes that you can't make a check conditional. My prof used the example that you could write "when hell freezes over" in the date space. It's meaningless, sames a writing " payment in full" on the memo line.
In some states, putting a "in full payment" of other qualifier in the endorsement space operates as a release (or whatever), in others it doesn't.
There is strong case law though, about post dated checks -post dating a check doesn't mean squat. A check is an item which is payable on demand. The date on the check is of very limited legal significance, and has nothing to do if the item is properly payable. ("Properly payable" is a term of art, with a lot of nuances to the concept.)
When you write a check, you are printing cash. Incidentally, checks are far and away the largest form of cash in circulation.
No. a draft is an order to pay one person (the payee) or a proper endorsee, given to the payor. A check is a draft drawn on a bank. It is not cash, conceptually or legally.
There are huge amounts of check values running through the system at any given time, but I forget if they exceed the amounts floating through the worlds wire transfer systems, which amounts are also huge. I think wire transfers out-sum checks, but I'm not sure.
(I worked with this stuff in the 80's for a few years when I was cutting my banking teeth.)
Some check fundamentals: a check operates as a conditional payment of an obligation; if it is dishonored, the original obligation is restored.
The payee of the check (or a proper endorsee) has no legal rights against the drawee (the entity to whom the order is given - the bank, in the case of a check.) If a check (or draft) payable or endorsed to me is dishonored by the drawee, my claim is back against the endorser or the drawer.
If I draw a check which opens itself to alteration, I'm responsible for the lose incurred. So, if I write the amount in such a way that it's easy for someone holding the check to alter the amount, I'm SOL. Or, if I write the Payee's name so it's easily alterable, I'm also SOL. (Classic example, I write my tax check payable to the "IRS." Someone intercepts it, alters it to read "I.R.Smith" and deposits in an account in that name and then makes off with my money - guess what, I'm SOL! - This happens every year!)
We'll finish with a touch of history. Up until the English industrial revolution, there was very little cash in circulation - most deals were barter; and checks, drafts and promissory notes were just about unheard of.
The industrial revolution made cash or cash substitutes necessary. The English Gov didn't see the need for more cash (gov's generally slow to see current realities) so an English judge, Lord Mansfield, one of the most famous judges of all time to legal historians, pretty much made up the law of "negotiable instruments" by himself, so that barter was no longer necessary - paper could replace "my pig for your barrel of stout."
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
In light of what you said about checks, Does it make a difference if
A) he never cashed her deposit check, and therefore, never having recieved any cash deposit but only a promise to pay a cash amt of $600, there exists no contract in force
B) he has deposited her check to his acount, and now, having recieved the earnest money, is bound to follow through unless they release him from the contract, barring other language in the written one..
Excellence is its own reward!
Bob knows a lot more about checks per se than I do but since I am sitting
around killing time this morning I thought I throw my two cents in (will you
take
a check?)
piffin-- In light of what you said about checks, Does it make a difference if
A) he never cashed her deposit check, and therefore, never having recieved
any cash deposit but only a promise to pay a cash amt of $600, there exists
no contract in force
Were talking a hypothetical case here but I would think that if a contractor
for some reason doesn't cash a deposit check the agreement that is covered
in the written contract still binds the contractor to perform the service agreed
to in the contract unless it was written in the contract that cashing the check
was a condition of the contract being valid.
One thing comes to mind on that issue though if that was the case in Jeff
situation the complaining wife might not have been so upset, He would still
be under contract but she might not have gotten so worked up thinking "you've
already taken our money".
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
{Sotto voce} "son of a b....; all essay questions, no multiple choice, dirty watzelfrazzle ..."{/soto voce}
Does it make a difference if
A) he never cashed her deposit check, and therefore, never having recieved any cash deposit but only a promise to pay a cash amt of $600, there exists no contract in force
B) he has deposited her check to his acount, and now, having recieved the earnest money, is bound to follow through unless they release him from the contract, barring other language in the written one.
Oooo, Oooo. Trick question! Good one!
In this fascinating case*, the issue is really what steps are required to form a binding contract. In the early days of Anglo-American jurisprudence**, the promisor (in this case, the contractor) had to receive some form of "consideration" from the promisee for the contract to be legally binding.
Traditionally, that "consideration" had to be something tangible, such as "earnest money."
For the past century or so, courts have accepted intangibles as a valid form of consideration, such as a promise; in this case, the promise by the homeowner to pay for the work done would probably be deemed to be sufficient consideration to make the contractor's promise to perform the work legally binding.
Also, because the work involves real estate, the state's real estate laws may provide that the existence of a signed writing is sufficient to form a binding contract.** *
So, he is arguably**** on the hook.***** The exam question does not give sufficient information as to whether he may have defenses available, such as anticipatory repudiation by the homeowner or impossibility of performance.
In the so-called Coronation cases in England, [blah, blah blah] impossibility [blah blah blah] ....
__________________
* You can get a better grade if you let the prof think you think that the subject he's teaching is really interesting.
** Extra points for big words{G}
*** Also extra points for pointing out possible complications!
**** Depending on the prof, you usually never state a final opinion, you always want to leave yourself some wiggle room. That shows you're "thinking like a lawyer." There are a few who want you to sate a bald conclusion. They are the one's who are trying to train you to pass the state bar examine{G}
***** Too bad, lose points for plain English like "off the hook." _______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
You can get a better grade if you let the prof think you think that the subject he's teaching is really interesting
That's part of it, the other part is tell the guy what HE wants to hear regardless if you can prove it incorrect.
The one thing I can claim to have fully learned in my extended vacation in college is professors believe they are God, the think they know everything and anything about what ever their subject matter is.
If you want good grades the easy way, listen not only to what he/she is saying, but what he means by it, what he believes.
Regurgitate his opinions on a test and you are sure to do fine, disagree or challenge his/her beliefs and you may have just screwed yourself. Doesn't apply to all professors but for most it works.
Regurgitate his opinions on a test and you are sure to do fine, disagree or challenge his/her beliefs and you may have just screwed yourself. Doesn't apply to all professors but for most it works.
I had one prof who, when asked what his exam would be like, commented "some professors want the vomit returned to the dog, others don't." I guessed (wrong) that he was one who didn't!
professors believe they are God, they think they know everything and anything about what ever their subject matter is.
Not just college; I find that is pretty much true of most people in a position of power or "superior" experience and knowledge.
In college, by definition the prof knows more than the students, some let it show more than others. Some are delighted to have original, real questions show up in the class room._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
In college, by definition the prof knows more than the students, some let it show more than others. Some are delighted to have original, real questions show up in the class room
I didn't mean to imply students know more then prof's but its been my experience that most do not encourage original thought, unless your in a real liberal type of class. Maybe its just my university
I was in architecture for a brief stint in the begining of my career here and even in the design/studio classes 2/3 of professors I had did all they could to put down students and stifle creativity.
I had one prof that would call students, idiots, stupid, etc in class in front of others, the sob is still teaching here, but after I switched majors I saw him in the hall he said He knew I wasn't cut out for it (architecture) Which is bs from what everyone else had told me up to that point, including the dean of the school and several other professionals and professors. I decided it really wasn't for me anyway and moved on.
Now I'm back in it.
The bad news is I told guy exactly what I thought of him after are last encounter in not so friendly language. Now I have to avoid his classes lol
I was in architecture for a brief stint
Ahhh! Yeah, they did't like their conceptions challanged, either, when I tried it_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Of course the students don't react real well to having their pre-conceptions challenged either. And they're a lot more ignorant than we were at that age.
I regret the necessity of adding a smiley. :)
And they're a lot more ignorant than we were at that age.
And school was up hill both ways, in 32" of snow with no shoes or coat and bricks in your back pack right?
Quick update to what should be a happy ending...considering.
Got a message from the husband on my machine this morning. I called back and got him.
I'd met him while there on the tile patch in job. Again...both seemed very nice at first. He was just as nice this time around. We did the little chit chat...very pleasant. I told him again what I told her.....never set a firm start date.....sorry she got confused....apologized for not being more clear.....but that I wouldn't leave one customer hanging to start another...then jump back and forth.
Basically....I took all the blame...but held my ground.
Told him again while it was a bad spot for all invloved....I fully understand the pains of remodeling...especially when the main project had run so far behind...and while I'm used to being one of the last guys in when customer tempers are short.....I unfortunatly didn't have any magic solution. People just have to be patient and wait their respective turn. To do different would be unfair to someone else.
He was very apologetic. Said he thought my idea of canceling the contract and refunding a "portion" of the deposit was more than fair of me. I said I also think that's best.....but the deposit would be refunded in full. I wasn't out to make enemy's or make a point. Things happen...remodeling's stressful.....things get delayed and people get upset.
I told him unfortunately I didn't have a name to refer him to....but did recommend calling my tile dist and tell them what the project entails and they'd probably be able to refer him someone that'd be able to get to the job before I could.
He again thanked me for understanding and for resolving things on a good note.
For what it's worth.....they weren't the GC of the big remodel. A company I sub for was doing the addition. There was some tile that needed patched in around the addition. When I was there for that work....the lead asked me to take a look at the counter upstairs and give a seperate price. He already checked with the company owner..they wanted nothing to do with any additional work..as they were already months behind. They just wanted to button things up and get out.
And....I did deposit their check last month when I got it.
The next tile setter in should be able to go in and be the hero. They're both nice people. The lady was just at the end of her remodeling rope. She just wanted her house back.....I can't blame her for that.....but like I told her......she's living without a breakfast bar. she still has a complete kitchen....the couple I'm working for now didn't till yesterday...and they have 2 small kids.
I didn't come right out and say it......but even if I could have switched things around......I wouldn't have. A house with 2 small kids and no kitchen takes priority over someone adding a breakfast bar above their fully functional kitchen counter.
And...it was wexford. Lotsa work there too!
So far as I know...still have the appointment at their daughters this weekend. After talking with the Dad...I don't think that's going to be a problem.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
So you stuck a fork in it?
The Mrs gave you some grief and your feelings were hurt? Special.
Are you sure you are cut out for this work?
No offense, but could I count on you when things get really tough? I don't see it, you bailed.
You tell me you just didn't define where your head is at with regard to this biz.
Sorry pal, all I see you selling is top dollar for what fits into your life.
I'm not saying that doesn't work, if that is where your head is at. I guess I just had you all wrong.
Where did all that come from? OUCH!
AND...ALL lawyers suck, every stinking last one of the crooked bastards. THEY should be the human shields. Hate'em..hate'em..hate'em..hate'em. Would not pee in their mouths if they were dieing of thirst, would'nt pee on em' if they were on fire. Have 3 in the immediate family.(I love them, but hate what they do)
Just getting in Jeff's face.
No big deal, except I thought he was worth it.
Hugs and kisses right back at ya!
Yeah......as soon as I saw things turning sour.....I started looking for the exit.
Bad business......I'm thinking not.
If I saw this as a potential from the start....I never woulda gave a price to start with.
Plus....don't forget the fact this lady had it in her mind I was starting a few days ago.....and I was gonna call by weekd end and give a start date of 2 full weeks away.
Plus......I only work for nice people from now on. New rule.
Nice work if ya can get it......
don't hate me 'cause I'm popular.
True test will be the daughters reception on Sat.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I'm cracking up.
Smoochies dude.
"Plus......I only work for nice people from now on. New rule."
Did the daughter fit the new customer profile? Sorry if I missed it but did we find out how the meeting with the daughter turned out? (I think it was the daughter.)
Did you get another job from these folks or not? Or was she gonna be more of the same?
Met with the daughter again.
This second time was with my plumber.
Seemed to go well. Haven't presented the final numbers yet...
..so time will tell.
Told my plumber as we walked up that I may get a door slammed in my face.....and I think what was more disturbing...he really didn't seem to care!
But I did get a good plumbing number.....
Daughter was the same as the other visits. Nice and polite. Our kids played together on the second visit...as I made last minute plans to show her my portfolio on a weekend at her request....I entertained the kiddies as she flipped the pics...so maybe she knows I come from a good family......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
AND...ALL lawyers suck, every stinking last one of the crooked bastards. THEY should be the human shields. Hate'em..hate'em..hate'em..hate'em. Would not pee in their mouths if they were dieing of thirst, would'nt pee on em' if they were on fire. Have 3 in the immediate family.(I love them, but hate what they do)
We won't tell you what we think of non-lawyers {G}_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Bob,
I like the vomit and dog thing. I think my law profs ran the most interesting lectures, and had the most colorful discussions. I guess "cash" wasn't the right term, maybe currency was.
One of my law profs used to tell us that we wouldn't learn anything valuable in his class but it would make us interesting at cocktail parties. I think he was wrong on both counts.
I had a criminal law class taught by a guy that was nearing retirement (and/or death, he was probably 75) and he wore a green uniform (like janitiors wear but without the nametag) every day that I saw him. I've often thought of doing that myself. I had another law prof who had a photographic memory, it was a graduate level course that he tought with no props or notes.
I have vivid memories of all my law classes. I guess that says something postive about lawyers. Someone stop me.Tom
I think you handled it well. Smooth exit while saving the job you may get at the daughters. Took the heat yet kept your ground. Nice job. Maybe you are about the money and convienence, I am. Good for you. I hate lawyers too. DanT
Jeff, I think you're absolutely right to be looking for a way out.
How you can get there could hinge on the terms of the contract; there might be some fine print, or regular print, that could affect the legal ins and outs.
Let's assume you don't have a clear out (e.g., "contractor may cancel ....")
And let's assume you "wrongfully" break a binding contract. What are her damages, or, what could it cost you?
1st: Possibly the cost of the tile if she's already purchased them, although if she has someone else install them, it's a wash.
2nd: the difference between the contract price for your contract and what someone else would charge. What's the difference between what you were going to charge and what someone else will? Probably not much on a job that small.
3rd: I suppose she could sue you, and you might lose some time (assuming small claims and no lawyers fees.)
I think the thing to do is: try to get her or her husband agree to cancelation of the contract, in writing. Doesn't have to be fancy:
Jane Doe ("Doe") and Buck Construction, Inc, having entered into a contract dated xx/yy/zz hereby agree to the cancelation of said contract. Buck Construction herewith returns the amount deposit of $600, and releases and foregoes any and all claims for the value of materials specification, consulting, and design provided to Doe, and Doe hereby releases and foregoes any and all claims which could arise in connection with said contract."
It could be a lot longer and fancier with lots of heretofores and hereinafters, but you get what you pay for {G} (And please remember, I no longer have a license to practice law, and laws may have changed since I did.)
Do NOT "admit" that the preliminary work you did was a freeby; I'm sure that it was factored into your contract price, so that if she starts making waves, you can calmly point out that you have already provided valuable services, and if she's going to make a stink, you're going make a claim for "quantum meruit." That's basically your right to be paid for the value of the services which you did render. (Don't give her the definition, just use the Latin and make 'em dig - hoping she or her husband isn't a lawyer {G}) Too much Latin is affected, a drop of it in the right place can work wonders!)
You might consider offering to help her find another tile guy - if you leave with the effort to be helpful, you'll maybe avoid some negative word of mouth.
Somehow, I'm getting Fox Chapel vibes here, or possibly Squirrel Hill. Long shot, Mt Leb?
If it's Sewickley, you might reconsider, there's a lot of good work up in Sewickley; on any given weekday, Sewickley has one of the highest concentration of work vehicles of any place I've ever seen! And there are some really cool houses to work on there!
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Jeff
Walk away. Your time is better spent getting good business. Do what you are doing, be polite, walk away and don't look back. It is not worth it. Pick your battles.
Jeff
i don't know , jeff... i like frankie's post... i sure do like turning situations around... if it's possible ...
Legal smegal, how do you feel after a day of cooling down?
I really hate to admit Frankie has it nailed, post #16, but he did.
Maybe the HO implied a schedule thing you didn't pick up on, maybe she didn't get that you will get there when you can. Make a call tonight, explain exactly what you can do, where you are at, and maybe mention you are on her side, and doing the best you can. Mention the last thing you want to do is bail on the contract, but if that is her wish you will go over and sign off on it, and return her deposit.
If you bail you failed to provide, you live with that. If you turn this around to smiles at the end, you are as good as I think you are.
Shrugs and hands out lady, what do you want me to do? I am going to be all over this job xx/xx/xx, and you will kiss me on the lips when I am done.
Listen to her needs, nod your head when she vents, do what you know needs to be done, and you will have a client for life.
yeah, baby.. i like the qtrmeg thingy...
..... turn this loser into a winner... then you can get the daughter and the mother competing with each other to win you over...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Which one Mike?
Shaking my head, this one is easy.
The hell I can't turn a smile out of a job that took a month to get to. Don't even ask me how long it takes from contract to my butt on a job...
27285.29
hey , jeff, don't cha just hate it when qtr gets all mushy like that ?
Mike...
we should save this thread somehow....
almost like the old days....
inventive question.....intelligent anwsers....both pro's and con's.....
a little bit of humor...and a coupla insults thrown in for good measure.....
Jeff "all about the money" Buck
as in...."How much money U got?"......Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff......
I know it all TOO well.
RUN.
It's painful. It seems like the poor business thing to do, but these are not customers you want. Unless, your price has been factored to include alot of BS, these people will be the death of you.
messi
http://www.foxbrookrenovations.com
You are a lucky guy to get out of this one. I would, with no animosity towards her. refund her money in full, attaching a note saying:
"thank you for the opportunity,sorry the timing didn't work out.Please call me for your next project"
She'll never call you again (if you're lucky!), and you haven't offended her. When she's telling the world about her experience with you,(she will), you will come across as a little disorganized, which is not fatal to your career.
Resist the urge to get even.
Hi jeff. some guys would say I'm way out of line. I would keep the deposit Or at least 1/2 . What is your consulting & expertise worth ? You have sent answers to some of my questions and you sound like a pro. Add up the time you spent on just bidding & advising this spoiled wench. Keep the check & send her an hourly bill for a few bucks more than the six hundred and tell her that because you are a nice guy you'll call it even.
While I appreciate your point I have to agree with Mr. Hayes. Yes the advice is worth something but then again a different tile layer may want to do the job differently with different materials. I think its worth it to get away from a potential problem clean and still maintain a shot at the daughters bathroom. I mean didn't we all at one time hope for a shot at someones mother after the daughter? Or something like that. DanT
Just saw something else here as I was reading through some old posted material
from this past summer that I think might also be apropos to this discussion
especially regarding and supporting Frankie's
position.
In the Inc magazine article Out
of Thin Air it says of Shawmut Design and Construction (now a $325 million
per year builder-remodeler-contractor):
Something to think about again uh?
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Dan thanks for agreeing with me but I'm not so sure anyone is right or wrong on that. Also Mr Hayes was my Dad. Jerry or Jerrald is much better. The only time I ever get called Mr. Hayes is as the police officer says "Mr Hayes you can sign the ticket right here" so it hurts when I hear that.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka